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 What do you have to say Now! 
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Bubbles the Lion

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Post What do you have to say Now!
A couple of weeks ago I talked about how I HOPED the Lions would hire a Black Coach and now it seems the Lions are set on hiring 1 of 2 unqualified position coaches over Tim Lewis and Mo Carthon two coaches who are highly regarded. Can you honestly say that Russ Grimm or Rod Marinelli (who before this noone ever heard of) are more qualified and have paid their dues by being coordinators first? Alot of people were opposed to Singletary becuase they thought he had never been a coordinator first but now 2 of the top candidates to coach our team are both guys who have never been coordinators. Without knowing the interviewing process can you honestly tell me that based on resumes that these guys are better and more qualified than Mo Carthon and Tim Lewis, especially Tim Lewis? Hell neither of these guys are even finalists based on what the medis is saying. In fact it is looking liked NO minority candidates will be hired with 8 jobs available. What a Joke the NFL is respect to hiring minority coaches.

I can only hope Millen makes the right decision, but it is looking more and more like the same ole thing. Millen is set to hire someone who he already wanted and all the interviews he did was nothing but a bunch of P.C. BS! The same as the majority of NFL teams! Eric Mangini gets hired after 1 year as a coordinator and long time minority coordinators are still being passed over. So much for times changing!

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January 17th, 2006, 3:06 am
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BIGROC34 wrote:
A couple of weeks ago I talked about how I HOPED the Lions would hire a Black Coach and now it seems the Lions are set on hiring 1 of 2 unqualified position coaches over Tim Lewis and Mo Carthon two coaches who are highly regarded. Can you honestly say that Russ Grimm or Rod Marinelli (who before this noone ever heard of) are more qualified and have paid their dues by being coordinators first? Alot of people were opposed to Singletary becuase they thought he had never been a coordinator first but now 2 of the top candidates to coach our team are both guys who have never been coordinators. Without knowing the interviewing process can you honestly tell me that based on resumes that these guys are better and more qualified than Mo Carthon and Tim Lewis, especially Tim Lewis? Hell neither of these guys are even finalists based on what the medis is saying. In fact it is looking liked NO minority candidates will be hired with 8 jobs available. What a Joke the NFL is respect to hiring minority coaches.

I can only hope Millen makes the right decision, but it is looking more and more like the same ole thing. Millen is set to hire someone who he already wanted and all the interviews he did was nothing but a bunch of P.C. BS! The same as the majority of NFL teams! Eric Mangini gets hired after 1 year as a coordinator and long time minority coordinators are still being passed over. So much for times changing!


Just because there is a little controversey over who we may or may not hire that doesn't mean we would be better off should we hire a black coach. Get off your racial soap box... this kind of crap paints race issues in a negative light. Placing this much attention on the issue MAKES it an issue... and it shouldn't be one..... Limiting our coaching candidates to a black coach is just that... limiting ourselves. We should look for the most qualified candidate, not the blackest. "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today." Let's make it a non-issue... Let's let it rest with credibility and qualifications... Let's live the dream....


January 17th, 2006, 3:47 am
Bubbles the Lion

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WJB,

Thw whole problem is people always want to push this issue to the back burner. My topic will get pushed to another forum that people rarely go to because none wants to talk about it. Well I won't stop and I am not a racist. I see injustice going on and I will bring it to light.

The double standards with respect to NFL coaches is laughable and cannot and should not be defended. I am not looking for agreement hear from anybody. In fact I already know the vast majority of responses I will get becuase they are the same whenever someone of color trys to ask these questions. People fell uncomfortable and basically dodge the issue or give a few examples of how things are changing when in fact they are not for the most part. There is nothing wrong with me wanting Minorities to get a FAIR shot at jobs and that includes GETTING HIRED FOR THOSE JOBS not just token interviews.

To give you an example their are people on Lions boards degarding minorites for not taking the token interviews with Millen last time and it is their feeling that Tim Lewis for example shouldn't have been hired or interviewed by the Lions becuase he refused last time when EVERYBODY knew Mooch was getting the job. Sorry, but many people still don't think minority coaches can get the job done, mainly the owners.

And for the life of me where do people keep reading where I said only Black or minority coaches should be hired or interviewed. I did not say that at all and what is a little controversy. Either the process is fair and on the up and up or it is not. Cleary it is not. If Millen hires Grimm is won't be a surprise becuase he was rumored as Millen's choice the whole entire time. No secret there. The only difference this times is Millen did a bunch of interviews and had a bunch of token black coaches come in to avoid a fine again. Minorities want a FAIR shot not to have to impress someone to just get them to EVEN consider honestly looking at them.

The fact is if Grimm or Marinelli is hired based on the current positions they hold neither of them is more qualified than Carthon or Lewis. Perhaps they wowed Millen and the Fords in interviews, but based on Millen's and the Fords track record I don't have confidence that they would the right choice and the fact that both Grimm and Marinelli have never been in charge of either side of the ball I really have to be skeptical and ask What does a Minority have to do to get hired as Head Coach of the Lions? I think this is an honest question.

Just for the record although I would have hoped the Lions would give a Minority a shot I always said I wanted NEW blood no matter what and I guess Grimm or Marinelli would be new blood. So in the end I would get what I really wanted.

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January 17th, 2006, 4:23 am
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Bigroc,

So, considering your statements I would have to assume that you currently work in the NFL, right? I mean, after all. you know what coach the Lions should sign. Heck, considering that you must be in the NFL then maybe you should contact your buddy Matt Millen and advise HIM as to whom he should sign. Let me also ask you to contact the GMs of all of the other teams looking to hire a HC or coordinator and advise them as you have so advised us. We appreciate your input, now why not use your obvious NFL influence and expertise to straighten out the entire race issue in the world. :rolleyes:

Peace,
wags

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January 17th, 2006, 9:53 am
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BIGROC34 wrote:
What do you have to say Now!


Here's what I have to say now!

This thread does belong somewhere else (Off Topic) and not in the Jungle. Because it's less about the Lions and more of a rant about you and your issues.

I was going to respond more several weeks ago but I choose to bite my tongue and say nothing - Now, since you brought it up again, I will speak up.

I'm a lot disgusted by your notion that the Lions should hire a coach and use ANY color as ANY criteria for the jobs qualifications. I'm also dismayed that the black athletes on the team would respond better to a black coach; How pathetic and twisted is that? If that is indeed what any of the players think then shame on them.

Why is it that Millen and / or the Lions organization are racist when Mo Carthon and Tim Lewis are not being invited back for a second interview? What makes them so special? Other teams have met with them and not hired them. YOU have not met with them. For all you know they could suck in an interview. For all you know they might not fit what Millen is looking for. (And, BTW, "paying your dues" isn't a criteria for hiring anybody except in your mind).

For all you know they may have some of the same phucked up beliefs you do.

At the most it might be curious that they're not being brought back for a second interview but your implication that anyone is racist goes way overboard.

FACT: If you didn't know Mo Carthon was our RB coach under then OC Sly Croom under then HC Bobby Ross. Who were the RB's he developed? How good a job did he do reigning in Kellen Winslow II in Cleveland? This just in... The Bobby Ross coaching tree isn't exactly lighting up the NFL with talent!

FACT: Tim Lewis is known to be tough - quietly in the Giants locker room he's rumored to be brutal. He was the focus of player complaints to the NFL last year (preseason) and furthermore he was let go by Bill Cowher as DC in Pittsburgh. I wonder why?

Those are facts - why don't you get your head out of your poopshute and check them out before you play the race card. If you don't see some of that as potential reasons NOT to hire someone then you need to rethink your position and start looking at life through a different color of eyeglasses. In fact, you need to do that anyway.


And while we're at it...

BIGROC34 wrote:
Obviously you have never been passed over for a job or position becuase of discrimination or don't know ALOT if people who are discriminated on a daily basis.


A job - No. But many Caucasians with better grades have been denied entrance to the college of their choice because the college had to fill a quota of minorities.

The problem with equal opportunity is it's never equal.

Martin Luther King laid out some great ideals. But they are no greater than those of Bill Cosby's. The problem is Cosby's message is one of personal accountability, ownership, looking inwards and self accomplishment. It's therefore widely considered less important than Kings message and Cosby has become an outcast in some circles because of it.

Many in Americas black population want to have equality yet at the same time they want to be separate and different and I for one don't believe it's working.

All Americans are bombarded daily by reminders of this; The United Negro College Fund; Black Entertainment Television; The NAACP. I would be branded a racist if I started up the United Caucasian College Fund; White Entertainment Television or an organization called The National Association for the Advancement of White People whose sole purpose is to benefit white America.

I'm an American whose heritage is Irish and French but I don't refer to myself as an Irish/French American. (And I'm not part of an Irish movement seeking reparations from Americas railroad companies because my ancestors helped build them 150+ years ago). My Italian friend doesn't call himself an Italian American and I've never heard my Jewish buddy refer to himself as a Jewish American. I've never started a sentence with, "As a white man..."; FEMA isn't racist it's just a bureaucracy run by stupid people; Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson where found 'NOT GUILTY' - they were not found 'innocent' and somehow I've gotten thru 48 years of life without having ever been called a racist.

BIGROC34 wrote:
Some of you can continue to live in a la la land and think as is well and perhaps were you live or your life is such but as a Black Man I have no choice but to live in reality and am reminded on a daily basis that I must work harder to get the same opporunity that others get just becuase they look different from me. This does not make me racist or part of the problem it makes me a realist that understands the nature of man and sometimes the nature of man is ugly, very ugly!


I don't know what YOU see when you look in the mirror but I suggest you consider looking more inwardly. Look at your belief system and examine your character - because what you're doing isn't working.

The one who seems to care most about you being black is you. The rest of us don't care. Instead of hiding from what you are or making excuses for what you are be proud of what you are - but you don't need to remind us every chance you get of the fact that you're black. I, for one, think M2K said so perfectly; please spare us the 'I've been wronged' speech!

BIGROC34 wrote:
understand that human nature is that people will hire people they fill comfortable with and all to often non-minorities are not comfortable with people who do not look like them.


I agree with the first part of this - it's "human nature is that people will hire people they feel comfortable with" but I'm bored with hearing the second part of it.

America has gotten real tired of hearing that because people respect those that get ahead on their own merit and are infuriated when the race card is played every time a minority doesn't get the job. If you ware your minority status like a badge everywhere you go then sooner or later you're going to get burned by it.

If I interview anyone with the same attitude as yours - I wouldn't hire them either.

I'm not naive enough to believe that racism does not exist in America or even in the NFL; but I refuse to paint everybody as a bigot every time the minority doesn't get the job when NONE of us where even there to interview him in the first place. Especially given the track record of the Fords and Millen and their history of treating people of every race fairly.

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January 17th, 2006, 9:55 am
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Well said LF57

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January 17th, 2006, 10:03 am
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lol...I was going to post about this Marinelli this morning. I guess I do not get why we would look at him over a Tim Lewis at this point. I think I have and many have also stated here that they do not want a position coach so as far as canidates for coach you are preaching to the choir. I can't say yes or no whether it has anything to do with race or not. I personally am not a Mo Carthon guy...if I am going to take an offensive coordinator I am going with Saunders or Kubiak purely based upon experience and the fact they represent two of the best offenses. Defensively there is not a whole lot out there outside of Tim Lewis.

Personally I don't want Singletary, Grimm, or Marinella or however you spell his name.

I personally think Millen is stupid but I wouldn't call him a racist. I think there are several better canidates than the guys he seems to like regardless of color.

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January 17th, 2006, 10:09 am
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I say keep the race card in the deck.


January 17th, 2006, 10:17 am
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What percentage of the players are non-white? What percentage of the head coaches are non-white? Better yet, how many owners are non-white? I understand why some people don't like affirmative action, but I don't understand how someone could look at the discrepancy in the NFL's numbers and not even recognize a problem. With 8 job openings, how can one ignore it if none are filled by non-white coaches?

Nobody has suggested that unqualified minority candidates be hired. That thought does not appear anywhere in this thread. BIGROC has observed a problem (which, by the way, the NFL also recognized which is why there is a minority hiring initiative), and expressed disappointment that the Lions are not doing anything to help (if the rumors are true). I don't think there is anything unreasonable in that.

The term "playing the race card" is such a passive-aggressive way of dismissing race from a discussion. Discussing race in this issue is apt, especially considering Millen's history of hiring.


January 17th, 2006, 11:07 am
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The hiring of minorities into these top positions is going to take time. I think there historically was a problem...just like the black QB issue of years ago. It was a problem but you couldn't all of a sudden start throwing guys into QB just because they were a minority. It had to start much earlier in pop warner, highschool, college, and then the pro's. Just like QB's coaches had to develop too. Look at the college ranks and coordinator spots. They are slowly but surely starting to see more minorities fill those positions. But it takes time and is not something you can force over night. The majority of canidates are white and therefore the odds are against the other guys just based upon pure numbers. But give it time and you will see the diversity in coordinators position grow even more and then the pool of canidates for HC jobs will shift too.

My two favorite canidates are white guys...if I were a GM I have to make the decision on who I feel best suits my team and can make them a winner and not based on anything else. It's when the numbers in the amount of canidates changes that you will see the diversity of HC really change. Mike Singletary is now a name...but lacks experience, Mo Carthon is a name (also mentioned to be a Lions finalist by some sources now) but IMO needs to prove more than what Cleveland has, and Tim Lewis who I hope gets another interview and is my third favorite canidate.

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Last edited by theAlphaMale on January 17th, 2006, 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.



January 17th, 2006, 11:38 am
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mwill2 wrote:
What percentage of the players are non-white? What percentage of the head coaches are non-white? Better yet, how many owners are non-white? I understand why some people don't like affirmative action, but I don't understand how someone could look at the discrepancy in the NFL's numbers and not even recognize a problem. With 8 job openings, how can one ignore it if none are filled by non-white coaches?

Nobody has suggested that unqualified minority candidates be hired. That thought does not appear anywhere in this thread. BIGROC has observed a problem (which, by the way, the NFL also recognized which is why there is a minority hiring initiative), and expressed disappointment that the Lions are not doing anything to help (if the rumors are true). I don't think there is anything unreasonable in that.

The term "playing the race card" is such a passive-aggressive way of dismissing race from a discussion. Discussing race in this issue is apt, especially considering Millen's history of hiring.


I don't know the numbers, but bear with me here:

The majority of players (over 50%......easily) are "non-white"

The majority of coaches are "white"

I don't know of any owners that are "non-white"

I'll give you my take in order. The majority of players are black, not just non-white, and I will not refer to the "minority" players as non-white as the NFL and Rooney Rule do not. It's not a rule put in for "minorities", but for perspective "black" coaches.

I ask this. What coaches did Cleveland interview last year? Just one, but he was black. Is that fair to the white coaches? It goes beyond "equal" rights and gets into "special" rights.

Just because the majority of players are black doesn't mean that the majority of coaches should be also. Being a good player does not translate to a good coach. I don't know why there aren't more black coaches in the NFL, but I am not willing to write it off as racism. There is no way the NFL could get away with it in today's society, nor do I think they would consider it.

Owners? I'm sure the NFL couldn't care less about the color of an owner, as long as he has the money to buy into the league.

As for bigroc playing the race card I have this to say. No, I havn't been passed over for a job because of the color of my skin. I have, however had family members in that position. They were let go because of the color of their skin and replaced by someone who was previously deemed "underqualified" and their hiring resulted in an injury to a fellow worker, due to the new person's lack of knowledge. It is an unfortunate incident, and an unfortunate scinario. So please, don't play the race card, it's an ugly crutch to use, especially when one race is allowed to use it, but another isn't.


January 17th, 2006, 11:38 am
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I am pretty sure everybody is sick of this topic, all I got to say is that until Millen or Ford say or are proven to not hire Lewis, Carthon, or some other minoritie coach due to his skin color we have no proof. Also as LF57 said they may not be the best prospects based on interveiws and other criteria. Rasicm is out there, i am from a small town where there are lots of ignorant people, but by bringing it up all the time while we are trying to advance past it does not help. I believe it seperates us further by making it us aginst them. So please stop trying to make it worse then it is and stop playing using race card becuase it hurts everybody and is just as racist as anything. Why cant it be 2 guys trying to get a job why does it have to be a black guy and a white guy.

Drop it close this topic or something Im hear to talk football not politics

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January 17th, 2006, 12:37 pm
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Stallion wrote:
Drop it close this topic or something Im hear to talk football not politics


That's why this is in Off-Topic, if you don't want to read it, don't open the thread

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January 17th, 2006, 12:43 pm
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LionFan57 wrote:
BIGROC34 wrote:
What do you have to say Now!


Here's what I have to say now!

This thread does belong somewhere else (Off Topic) and not in the Jungle. Because it's less about the Lions and more of a rant about you and your issues.

I was going to respond more several weeks ago but I choose to bite my tongue and say nothing - Now, since you brought it up again, I will speak up.

I'm a lot disgusted by your notion that the Lions should hire a coach and use ANY color as ANY criteria for the jobs qualifications. I'm also dismayed that the black athletes on the team would respond better to a black coach; How pathetic and twisted is that? If that is indeed what any of the players think then shame on them.

Why is it that Millen and / or the Lions organization are racist when Mo Carthon and Tim Lewis are not being invited back for a second interview? What makes them so special? Other teams have met with them and not hired them. YOU have not met with them. For all you know they could suck in an interview. For all you know they might not fit what Millen is looking for. (And, BTW, "paying your dues" isn't a criteria for hiring anybody except in your mind).

For all you know they may have some of the same phucked up beliefs you do.

At the most it might be curious that they're not being brought back for a second interview but your implication that anyone is racist goes way overboard.

FACT: If you didn't know Mo Carthon was our RB coach under then OC Sly Croom under then HC Bobby Ross. Who were the RB's he developed? How good a job did he do reigning in Kellen Winslow II in Cleveland? This just in... The Bobby Ross coaching tree isn't exactly lighting up the NFL with talent!

FACT: Tim Lewis is known to be tough - quietly in the Giants locker room he's rumored to be brutal. He was the focus of player complaints to the NFL last year (preseason) and furthermore he was let go by Bill Cowher as DC in Pittsburgh. I wonder why?

Those are facts - why don't you get your head out of your poopshute and check them out before you play the race card. If you don't see some of that as potential reasons NOT to hire someone then you need to rethink your position and start looking at life through a different color of eyeglasses. In fact, you need to do that anyway.


And while we're at it...

BIGROC34 wrote:
Obviously you have never been passed over for a job or position becuase of discrimination or don't know ALOT if people who are discriminated on a daily basis.


A job - No. But many Caucasians with better grades have been denied entrance to the college of their choice because the college had to fill a quota of minorities.

The problem with equal opportunity is it's never equal.

Martin Luther King laid out some great ideals. But they are no greater than those of Bill Cosby's. The problem is Cosby's message is one of personal accountability, ownership, looking inwards and self accomplishment. It's therefore widely considered less important than Kings message and Cosby has become an outcast in some circles because of it.

Many in Americas black population want to have equality yet at the same time they want to be separate and different and I for one don't believe it's working.

All Americans are bombarded daily by reminders of this; The United Negro College Fund; Black Entertainment Television; The NAACP. I would be branded a racist if I started up the United Caucasian College Fund; White Entertainment Television or an organization called The National Association for the Advancement of White People whose sole purpose is to benefit white America.

I'm an American whose heritage is Irish and French but I don't refer to myself as an Irish/French American. (And I'm not part of an Irish movement seeking reparations from Americas railroad companies because my ancestors helped build them 150+ years ago). My Italian friend doesn't call himself an Italian American and I've never heard my Jewish buddy refer to himself as a Jewish American. I've never started a sentence with, "As a white man..."; FEMA isn't racist it's just a bureaucracy run by stupid people; Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson where found 'NOT GUILTY' - they were not found 'innocent' and somehow I've gotten thru 48 years of life without having ever been called a racist.

BIGROC34 wrote:
Some of you can continue to live in a la la land and think as is well and perhaps were you live or your life is such but as a Black Man I have no choice but to live in reality and am reminded on a daily basis that I must work harder to get the same opporunity that others get just becuase they look different from me. This does not make me racist or part of the problem it makes me a realist that understands the nature of man and sometimes the nature of man is ugly, very ugly!


I don't know what YOU see when you look in the mirror but I suggest you consider looking more inwardly. Look at your belief system and examine your character - because what you're doing isn't working.

The one who seems to care most about you being black is you. The rest of us don't care. Instead of hiding from what you are or making excuses for what you are be proud of what you are - but you don't need to remind us every chance you get of the fact that you're black. I, for one, think M2K said so perfectly; please spare us the 'I've been wronged' speech!

BIGROC34 wrote:
understand that human nature is that people will hire people they fill comfortable with and all to often non-minorities are not comfortable with people who do not look like them.


I agree with the first part of this - it's "human nature is that people will hire people they feel comfortable with" but I'm bored with hearing the second part of it.

America has gotten real tired of hearing that because people respect those that get ahead on their own merit and are infuriated when the race card is played every time a minority doesn't get the job. If you ware your minority status like a badge everywhere you go then sooner or later you're going to get burned by it.

If I interview anyone with the same attitude as yours - I wouldn't hire them either.

I'm not naive enough to believe that racism does not exist in America or even in the NFL; but I refuse to paint everybody as a bigot every time the minority doesn't get the job when NONE of us where even there to interview him in the first place. Especially given the track record of the Fords and Millen and their history of treating people of every race fairly.


this is so well said, if you decided to goto congress id vote for you, this whole thing about a coach being better just because of the color of there skin is so stupid, its hard to think there people out ther that think like this, now heres my point, in lionsfan57 message, he was
saying how irish decent dont say there irish american, and so on and so forth, Now me im a true American, in that my ancestors are
Ottawa Indian, who are to this day, still on the map of michigan,And i might add on a ress that was put there for them.but
thats not the point. Im not saying i dont
have anymore rights than any white man, or black man.
lionsfan57 said it best, Were Americans, we all had our fueds over time, but it made us who we are now, so Bigroc either get on the train with the rest of us, or jump off, if skin had anything to do with the hiring of head coaches, in the NFL, well hell I should be a lock for either the Chiefs or the Redskins huh!!, that sounds about as dumb as what you said, skin has nothing to do with it, it has to do with how you present yourself and what you bring to the tbl.


January 17th, 2006, 2:59 pm
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so far the "top candidates" are just guys that the media thinks is gonna get the job. Millen hasnt said anything so anything the media says isnt guaranteed to be true...and i hope it isnt because i really want Tim Lewis as the lions next head coach. that has nothing to do with the fact that hes black i just think hes the most qualified.

you cant really blame millen for not hiring a black guy this time cuz he hasnt hired anyone yet. We'll just have to wait and see.


January 17th, 2006, 6:56 pm
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