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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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lionsfanak wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
What percentage of the players are non-white? What percentage of the head coaches are non-white? Better yet, how many owners are non-white? I understand why some people don't like affirmative action, but I don't understand how someone could look at the discrepancy in the NFL's numbers and not even recognize a problem. With 8 job openings, how can one ignore it if none are filled by non-white coaches?

Nobody has suggested that unqualified minority candidates be hired. That thought does not appear anywhere in this thread. BIGROC has observed a problem (which, by the way, the NFL also recognized which is why there is a minority hiring initiative), and expressed disappointment that the Lions are not doing anything to help (if the rumors are true). I don't think there is anything unreasonable in that.

The term "playing the race card" is such a passive-aggressive way of dismissing race from a discussion. Discussing race in this issue is apt, especially considering Millen's history of hiring.


I don't know the numbers, but bear with me here:

The majority of players (over 50%......easily) are "non-white"

The majority of coaches are "white"

I don't know of any owners that are "non-white"

I'll give you my take in order. The majority of players are black, not just non-white, and I will not refer to the "minority" players as non-white as the NFL and Rooney Rule do not. It's not a rule put in for "minorities", but for perspective "black" coaches.


Well, no, it is a "minority" hiring initiative. You can call it what you like, but it is intended to increase the number of non-white coaches. Interviewing Norm Chow, for example, would satisfy the policy.

Quote:
I ask this. What coaches did Cleveland interview last year? Just one, but he was black. Is that fair to the white coaches? It goes beyond "equal" rights and gets into "special" rights.


Actually, this is completely false. The Browns interviewed four candidates: Crennell, Terry Robiskie, Russ Grimm, and Brad Childress.

Quote:
Just because the majority of players are black doesn't mean that the majority of coaches should be also. Being a good player does not translate to a good coach. I don't know why there aren't more black coaches in the NFL, but I am not willing to write it off as racism. There is no way the NFL could get away with it in today's society, nor do I think they would consider it.


I don't ask that anyone write it up to racism, but I have yet to hear a compelling argument that offers another explanation for why the discrepancy exists. Fine if you don't believe it to be racism...but do you chalk it up to coincidence?

For a bit of perspective:
In the history of the NFL, there have been nine black head coaches. NINE. Nine coaches EVER. That, to me, is absurd and difficult to attribute to coincidence. One of the nine was Fritz Pollard, and it took over 60 years for the next to get hired (Art Shell).

I certainly don't expect (or desire) Millen to hire a less qualified candidate for the Lions because of skin color. That would be a terrible move. But race is significant when we consider Millen's history. He hired Marty and Mooch, with little/no consideration for other candidates. When he made those hires the following 2006 PLAYOFF coaches were available to him, all black: Herm Edwards, Marvin Lewis, and Lovie Smith.

I expect people to disagree with me, but please, someone, offer an explanation for why there have only been NINE black head coaches EVER.


January 17th, 2006, 9:18 pm
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mwill2 wrote:
I expect people to disagree with me, but please, someone, offer an explanation for why there have only been NINE black head coaches EVER.


I'll take a stab at it... Up until the mid to late 1960's there existed an obvious discrimination. Even the Jim Crow laws weren't outlawed until the mid 60's I believe. Black people were thought to be more athletic and less inteligent... good players, bad coaches... In fact, the only black coach I've heard of in non-comtempory times in the NFL was of Fritz Pollard, and even he was allegedly a player coach.

Aside from Pollard, Art Shell, Rhodes, and Green seemed to pave the way for the newer breed... Why? Why so long and why so few? If you look at the 60's - 70's as a cloudy end or push away from discrimination, and a retiring point at which someone could end their playing career (and thus pursue a coaching career) it seems pretty obvious. IMO The number of black coaches is not all that few... in the last 15 years nearly ALL of the black coaches in NFL history have been hired, and that # is likely to grow even more this year.

IMO the problem is correcting itself.... Ridiculous rules that stipulate the interviewing of at least one minority coaching candidate only trivialize the issue. Championing the issue, bringing it up over and over again, and beating a dead horse only paints it in a negative light and causes people to take sides. I believe that only obvious cases of discimination should be investigated and discussed. Sherm Lewis could be looked at as an example after being championed by Jerry Jones and passed by... If I'm not mistaking Jones also championed Dennis Green before hiring Parcels. Maybe Jones is a racist and should be looked at??? Still, I believe that is few and far between. I believe that nearly every owner (perhaps Jones too) would be open to hiring a black coach if they honestly believed they were the best option available.


January 18th, 2006, 2:37 am
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I find it so funny that some many people don't think this is an issue. Perhaps it is becuase it doesn't affect you, I don't know. What I do know is that minorities are once again getting shafted by NFL owners out of 10 jobs it is looking more and more like 9 of 10 will go to non-minorities with the only exception being Herm Edwards who already had a job. Folks can ignore the facts all you want, but 1 day the tables will be flipped and some of you will get to experience what it is like to be qualified and constantly get denied OPPORTUNITY to advance. It is not a feeling that just goes away or gets better.

Many of you live in a world I know nothing about and would never try to trivalize your experiences and your reality. I live this reality everyday. I have never routed for someone just becuase of their color but I think it is ok to trumpet change when clearly their is a worthy issue.

For life the of me I am trying to figure out how wanting minorities to get a fair chance to suceed as head coaches just like non-minorities get each and every year is wrong. Hell non-minorites get a chance to be coaches over and over again even when they fail. Would Lewis, Carthon or Singletary be better coaches than Haslett, Grimm or Marinelli I don't know, but you know what it would sure be nice to see them get chances like everyone else. The Jets hired this 35 year old Mangini guy after he was a coordinator for 1 year. 1 year! When I see a non-minority get a chance like that perhaps I will let it go, but until then I will continue to try and enlighten people to the injustice that continues in the NFL hiring to this day!

Is it any wonder that the majority of black coaches have been successful, Hell they are required to "PAY THEIR DUES" for years and years before getting their first shot!

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January 18th, 2006, 2:42 am
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BIGROC34 wrote:
Folks can ignore the facts all you want, but 1 day the tables will be flipped and some of you will get to experience what it is like to be qualified and constantly get denied OPPORTUNITY to advance. It is not a feeling that just goes away or gets better.


That's already the case pal... I could go to U of M Law School if I was black, hispanic, gay, or even a white female. Because I am a caucasian male, and ONLY because I am caucasian male I am passed over for LESS qualified (not even equally qualified) individuals.

You can't deny that this problem is going away... holding onto the past and constantly throwing salt on the wound is NOT making things better.

BIGROC34 wrote:
For life the of me I am trying to figure out how wanting minorities to get a fair chance to suceed as head coaches just like non-minorities get each and every year is wrong.


It's not wrong, but limiting your selection to a minority candidate IS. Precluding ANYONE for reasons of race, creed, or color is wrong for any reason, even if it is to hire a minority. Hire the best person for the job, not the best color


January 18th, 2006, 2:47 am
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I expect people to disagree with me, but please, someone, offer an explanation for why there have only been NINE black head coaches EVER.


I'll take a stab at it... Up until the mid to late 1960's there existed an obvious discrimination. Even the Jim Crow laws weren't outlawed until the mid 60's I believe. Black people were thought to be more athletic and less inteligent... good players, bad coaches... In fact, the only black coach I've heard of in non-comtempory times in the NFL was of Fritz Pollard, and even he was allegedly a player coach.

Aside from Pollard, Art Shell, Rhodes, and Green seemed to pave the way for the newer breed... Why? Why so long and why so few? If you look at the 60's - 70's as a cloudy end or push away from discrimination, and a retiring point at which someone could end their playing career (and thus pursue a coaching career) it seems pretty obvious. IMO The number of black coaches is not all that few... in the last 15 years nearly ALL of the black coaches in NFL history have been hired, and that # is likely to grow even more this year.

IMO the problem is correcting itself.... Ridiculous rules that stipulate the interviewing of at least one minority coaching candidate only trivialize the issue. Championing the issue, bringing it up over and over again, and beating a dead horse only paints it in a negative light and causes people to take sides. I believe that only obvious cases of discimination should be investigated and discussed. Sherm Lewis could be looked at as an example after being championed by Jerry Jones and passed by... If I'm not mistaking Jones also championed Dennis Green before hiring Parcels. Maybe Jones is a racist and should be looked at??? Still, I believe that is few and far between. I believe that nearly every owner (perhaps Jones too) would be open to hiring a black coach if they honestly believed they were the best option available.


Well, fine, but you realize that you've confirmed that the discrepancy exists because of racial discrimination, right? Certainly it is better now than in the 1960's and 70's (when there were NO black coaches). However, there is no evidence suggesting that there will be an increase THIS year. Nine job openings this year, and it looks as if all will be filled by white coaches.

I understand philosophical disagreement with the concept of Affirmative Action. I used to feel that way myself. What is important to remember, even if one disapproves of Affirmative Action, is that it does not encourage opportunities for any unqualified individuals.

Back to the Lions and Matt Millen. No one wants an unqualified head coach for the Lions. I wonder if anyone would call Lovie Smith, Romeo Crennel, Herm Edwards, and Marvin Lewis "unqualified?" Millen had the opportunity to hire all four of these men, and chose Marty and Mooch. I would argue that MORE qualified minority candidates were passed over in favor of LESS qualified white candidates. To me, that points to a problem that is not getting better. Just an opinion...


January 18th, 2006, 1:12 pm
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This is a serious issue. But I think it is also very serious to suggest that Millen is a racists. IMO I think he is not very bright and has made poor decisions but I wouldn't call the guy a racists. He obviously and single-mindedly wanted to create the San Francisco Lions here before he hired anyone. His love affair with the 49ers and Mooch led him to Marty. Kubiak was available back then and was still more qualified than Marty. Herm Edwards was picked up very fast by NY Jets as well so he was not really an option. I am not sure about time lines but Marvin Lewis was either with this hire or the next was working his way to a Super Bowl and Millen unlike he seems now was not a patient man. The guy was a rookie and had a vision...a bad vision but none-the-less engrained in his mind what he wanted. I think he has made some terrible decisions but calling him a racists is just plain lazy and irresponsible IMO.

I think the ranks of coordinators will be filled with more and more minorities and over the next 5 years more and more HC hirings will be made.

Tim Lewis at this point is a nice canidate but it is true that he was fired from Pittsburg as his defenses performed worse and worse every year he was there going from the top NFL defense to the 9th overall and players were having problems with him. Then his Giants were scored on 23 points as Carolinas DeShaun Foster ran for 150+ yds and Carolina controlled the cock for almost 42 minutes of the game. That is a very unimpressive defensive showing.

Mo Carthon is the OC for one of the worst teams in football...at this point I cannot see him as a legit canidate until Cleveland shows progress through his abilities.

Singletary is just so raw...even though Marinelli and Grimm are position coaches Grimm is like the 4th or 5th longest tenured players/coaches in the NFL active right now behind guys like Marv Levy, Tony Dungy and a couple others while Marinelli reportedly has basically mentored and helped in the development of coaches Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, and a few more. That's are pretty impressive to me.

Minorities are filling up more and more of the coordinator and assistant spots and you will see more and more HC canidates coming from these spots and filling up head coaching spots.

I do think the interview policy is fair and have no problem with it but at least for this year I cannot cry fowl when looking at the canidates.

Jim Fassel, Mooch, Kubiak, Grimm, Rob Marinelli, Mike Martz, Al Saunders, Russ Grimm, Eric Mangini, Sean Peyton, Dick Juron, Kirk Ferentz, Pete Carrol, Norv Turner, Mike McCarthy, Mike Mularkey, Brad Childress, Mike Sherman, Jim Haslett, Ron Rivera, Jim Bates, etc...


I thought the following article was interesting in regards to this topic.

Quote:
NFL coaching searches become more inclusive

By CHRIS JENKINS, AP Sports Writer
January 12, 2006

Under pressure from civil rights advocates three years ago, the NFL established a rule requiring teams to interview at least one minority candidate before hiring a head coach.

But this year, the so-called "Rooney Rule" is being supplanted by one of football's more time-honored tenets: If it works, consider copying it.

In a breakthrough year for black coaches, the Chicago Bears' Lovie Smith and Cincinnati Bengals' Marvin Lewis led recently downtrodden teams to the playoffs. Tony Dungy's Indianapolis Colts flirted with a perfect season.

Now their success -- Smith and Dungy finished 1-2 in AP Coach of the Year voting -- might be making less-successful teams more receptive to minority candidates.

"I don't think it's that simple," says Atlanta Falcons executive vice president Ray Anderson, a former agent to Dungy, Lewis and other top coaches. "But historically, there have been some 'copycat' tendencies in the league."

There are six black head coaches in the NFL: Smith, Dungy, Lewis, Arizona's Denny Green, Cleveland's Romeo Crennel and new Kansas City Chiefs coach Herman Edwards.

And judging by the way teams have conducted their coaching searches this offseason, more might be on the way -- if not this year, then down the road.

With an unusually high number of open head coaching jobs this offseason, several teams have gone beyond NFL requirements to interview multiple minority candidates.

Even if most teams still end up hiring white coaches, the trend is seen as progress.

Cyrus Mehri, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who partnered with the late Johnnie Cochran to pressure the NFL into establishing minority hiring guidelines for teams after the 2002 season, expects to see a record number of minority coaching interviews this offseason.


Mehri says teams might finally be getting the message: They shouldn't interview minority candidates simply because they have to. They should want to, because it might improve their teams.

"If you give people the opportunity and open your mind to a broader slate of candidates, you can get results," Mehri says.

In October 2002, Cochran and Mehri issued a report titled, "Black Coaches in the National Football League: Superior Performance, Inferior Opportunities." They threatened to sue if the NFL didn't take steps to help minority coaching candidates.

The NFL hastily formed a diversity committee, chaired by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney. Rooney's rule: Before hiring a head coach, a team must interview at least one minority candidate, unless it is promoting a current assistant coach.

Mehri -- legal counsel to the Fritz Pollard Alliance, an organization named after the NFL's first black head coach and set up to help develop minority coaching candidates -- said their initial tone was "slightly adversarial" and didn't sit well with owners or fans.

"When the rule came out three years ago, there was a little bit of a pushback on it," Mehri said. "Now, people see the results."

They also saw what happened to Detroit Lions general manager Matt Millen.

Millen didn't interview a minority candidate before hiring Steve Mariucci in 2003. As criticism mounted, Millen couldn't find a minority candidate who would agree to what obviously would have been a token interview. The league fined Millen $200,000.

"There's teeth in that initiative," Anderson said.

Now the Lions are looking for Mariucci's replacement, and reportedly have spoken to at least three minority candidates: Bears Hall of Fame linebacker Mike Singletary, Browns offensive coordinator Maurice Carthon and New York Giants defensive coordinator Tim Lewis.

Mehri says he does not think Millen is simply trying to protect himself the second time around.

"I think it's sincere," Mehri said. "Because he didn't serve his team well just by interviewing one person."


According to media reports, Carthon also has interviewed with the Packers and Saints; Lewis has interviewed with the Packers and St. Louis Rams; Bears defensive coordinator Ron Rivera, who is Hispanic, has interviewed with the Packers and Rams; New York Jets defensive coordinator Donnie Henderson has interviewed with the Rams and Saints; and the Vikings interviewed Colts assistant head coach Jim Caldwell and their own defensive coordinator, Ted Cottrell.

The Vikings and Packers ultimately hired white coaches; Minnesota introduced Brad Childress last week and Green Bay hired Mike McCarthy on Thursday.

"It is progress when Maurice Carthon and Tim Lewis are getting multiple shots," Anderson said. "The rule was not intended to guarantee minorities a job. The rule was intended to give opportunity."

After firing coach Dom Capers, the Houston Texans interviewed wide receivers coach Kippy Brown, who is black.

Brown is considered a long shot to get the job. But a few years ago, he might not even have gotten the interview -- which, at the very least, might give him more name recognition around the league.

"There was a time when guys that looked like me didn't get those opportunities," Brown said. "And now it's happening, so it's positive."

But the biggest sign of progress this week might have come from Kansas City, where the Chiefs sent a draft pick to the Jets to get Edwards.

Edwards, though respected in football circles, has a career 39-41 regular season record.


One of the main complaints advanced by Cochran and Mehri three years ago was that the few black coaches who were hired were "afforded far less room for error than similarly situated whites."

Edwards, meanwhile, wants to put the issue to rest.

"We're getting to the point where you don't say I'm an African-American coach," Edwards said. "I'm just 'Coach."'


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January 18th, 2006, 2:16 pm
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theAlphaMale wrote:
This is a serious issue. But I think it is also very serious to suggest that Millen is a racists. IMO I think he is not very bright and has made poor decisions but I wouldn't call the guy a racists.



Just to be clear, I am not claiming that Millen is a racist. I am only pointing out that there is a troubling tendency in the NFL, and Millen has participated in it. I do not even suggest that he did so consciously.


January 18th, 2006, 3:34 pm
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Well under that philosphy we unconciously club baby seals all the time, we are rewarding sweat shops that build their fortunes of the backs of slave labor, we stuff our faces with hamburgers were cows produce enough methane to polute the atmosphere, we are over fishing our oceans, we throw away food from a meal that starving people in india and africa could survive off for a week...blahblabbhblah. We are unconciously killing the world and the people in it if you look at the world in those terms.

Yes there is a problem in the NFL and actions have been taken to help rectify it. It was a big step that I believe will lead to progress but some people are still hollering about individual situations when the issue was systemic and it has been addressed. Not everything changes as a result of a revolution...sometimes the better way to change things is through an evolution. Look at what happened in Palestine when Israel pulled out...an all out choatic violent mess.

I am somewhat arguing the absurd above but its true. Like they mention in the article...Herm Edwards actually has a worse record than Haslett and yet a team sought him out for a trade and yet we here are extremely skeptical of Hasletts abilities here. I am not saying its reverse racism but IMO it is absent from the equation. I think Millen would have gone after Herm Edwards had he been released by the Jets.

I believe that Mo Carthone, Tim Lewis, and Mike Singletary will get their shots at being HC's whether it be this year or later and many many more minorities will as well becuase of this policy but they will get the jobs by merit.

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January 18th, 2006, 4:00 pm
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mwill2 wrote:
I expect people to disagree with me, but please, someone, offer an explanation for why there have only been NINE black head coaches EVER.


Has it ever occured to you (and others) that perhaps the reason for this is because no minorities have been interested in becoming a head coach until the last 20 or so years? The reasons for this could be many; preferred to get away from the game and go into business, head coaching was too stressful, didn't like the bureaucracy that went with the position, etc. I'm not saying this is the reason, but just because there have only been nine coaches EVER, doesn't mean there has been a plethora of minorities interested in taking on the duties of a head coach in the NFL. Until recently, the head coaching job didn't pay real well. Coaches spend many more hours away from their families than most players. Many of the players, like Mike Singletary stated, prefer to spend time with their families prior to accepting positions as coaches. And then, moving your way up in the organization takes not just time, but success.

As I said before when ROC brought this up, equal rights is a process not an event. You don't just snap your fingers and have it happen. And by making the statement that 'I hope the Lions hire a qualified black coach' is decidedly a racist statement. Were anyone else to have changes the 'black' to 'white', there would be all sorts of posts on how that individual was a racist. It works both ways. EVERYONE is capable of being a racist, not just Caucasians.

I think many of us, both minority and non-minority, have a common goal. We want the Lions to win. I was praying that the Lions could have hired Herman Edwards. Not because he's black, but because I think he's an excellent coach who relates to the players well because he was a great player, not a great black player.

That's the difference.

So if you think the NFL is racist, so be it. You're entitled to your opinions. But so are the remainder of us who can say that we don't think that's the case. I don't believe Matt Millen hired Marty or Mooch because he is a racist, he hired them because they had knowledge of the offensive system he thought he wanted to bring to the Lions. None of the other candidates who were minorities fit that bill.

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January 18th, 2006, 4:51 pm
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mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I expect people to disagree with me, but please, someone, offer an explanation for why there have only been NINE black head coaches EVER.


I'll take a stab at it... Up until the mid to late 1960's there existed an obvious discrimination. Even the Jim Crow laws weren't outlawed until the mid 60's I believe. Black people were thought to be more athletic and less inteligent... good players, bad coaches... In fact, the only black coach I've heard of in non-comtempory times in the NFL was of Fritz Pollard, and even he was allegedly a player coach.

Aside from Pollard, Art Shell, Rhodes, and Green seemed to pave the way for the newer breed... Why? Why so long and why so few? If you look at the 60's - 70's as a cloudy end or push away from discrimination, and a retiring point at which someone could end their playing career (and thus pursue a coaching career) it seems pretty obvious. IMO The number of black coaches is not all that few... in the last 15 years nearly ALL of the black coaches in NFL history have been hired, and that # is likely to grow even more this year.

IMO the problem is correcting itself.... Ridiculous rules that stipulate the interviewing of at least one minority coaching candidate only trivialize the issue. Championing the issue, bringing it up over and over again, and beating a dead horse only paints it in a negative light and causes people to take sides. I believe that only obvious cases of discimination should be investigated and discussed. Sherm Lewis could be looked at as an example after being championed by Jerry Jones and passed by... If I'm not mistaking Jones also championed Dennis Green before hiring Parcels. Maybe Jones is a racist and should be looked at??? Still, I believe that is few and far between. I believe that nearly every owner (perhaps Jones too) would be open to hiring a black coach if they honestly believed they were the best option available.


Well, fine, but you realize that you've confirmed that the discrepancy exists because of racial discrimination, right? Certainly it is better now than in the 1960's and 70's (when there were NO black coaches). However, there is no evidence suggesting that there will be an increase THIS year. Nine job openings this year, and it looks as if all will be filled by white coaches.

I understand philosophical disagreement with the concept of Affirmative Action. I used to feel that way myself. What is important to remember, even if one disapproves of Affirmative Action, is that it does not encourage opportunities for any unqualified individuals.

Back to the Lions and Matt Millen. No one wants an unqualified head coach for the Lions. I wonder if anyone would call Lovie Smith, Romeo Crennel, Herm Edwards, and Marvin Lewis "unqualified?" Millen had the opportunity to hire all four of these men, and chose Marty and Mooch. I would argue that MORE qualified minority candidates were passed over in favor of LESS qualified white candidates. To me, that points to a problem that is not getting better. Just an opinion...


MWILL... It doesn't really matter if things get better "THIS" year... Out of 32 spots a record number of HC's are now black. IMO that should be good enough... and DEFINITELY points to things getting better without a negative light thrown on the situation or more salt poured on the wound... I could understand if it was still a huge problem, but the fact of the matter is it's NOT. The majority of teams seem more than willing to hire a black HC, and has they continue to have success I'm sure you will see it more and more. Lovie Smith, an African American, won the coach of the year, and Tony Dungy, another African American, finished 2nd in the voting... It's getting more and more tough to say the NFL is a racist organization, and it's getting that way without all of this negative bullshit, which, IMO only makes things worse....

Also, I agree with M2... after the mid to late 60's and the abolishment of quasi-legal administrative discrimination if there WERE more qualified candidates that wanted to pursue a HC position the NAACP would have made damn sure we heard about it.


Last edited by wjb21ndtown on January 18th, 2006, 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.



January 18th, 2006, 5:05 pm
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theAlphaMale wrote:
... Like they mention in the article...Herm Edwards actually has a worse record than Haslett and yet a team sought him out for a trade and yet we here are extremely skeptical of Hasletts abilities here. I am not saying its reverse racism but IMO it is absent from the equation. I think Millen would have gone after Herm Edwards had he been released by the Jets.

I believe that Mo Carthone, Tim Lewis, and Mike Singletary will get their shots at being HC's whether it be this year or later and many many more minorities will as well becuase of this policy but they will get the jobs by merit.



I agree Alpha.

In fact, relative to Herm Edwards, I would argue that KC didn't trade for him but rather traded a draft pick to NOT HAVE TO COMPETE with other teams for him.

My point being (please try to follow my logic) that the Jets screwed up and were going to fire Edwards then they decided to try to get something for him. While KC and many in the NFL saw Edwards as the best coach available had he been cut. KC trading a pick secured his rights without the competition of a bidding war.

That's how desirable Edwards is.

I can't speak for every team out there but I'm highly confident the Lions would have been a suitor if Edwards had become a free agent coach. My further point being that teams (at least the Lions) want a winner and that transcends race, color, religion etc. and goes more towards character, style, personality and demeanour as much or more than even track record.

EXAMPLE: I could argue fairly convincingly that Kubiak is / was the best HC candidate available but Millen passed on him because of his style is to laid back and not what he wanted leading the team.

If you are a GM trying to resurrect a franchise the 'feeling' you get from a coach candidate is equal in importance, if not more important, than his credentials and resume'. If you don't get that 'feeling' then it's not racism to not hire a guy. If you DO get that 'feeling' and choose to ignore or discount it because the candidate is a minority then it would be racism or at least discrimination.


It wasn't that long ago that there were VERY few (if any) black QB's (playing, let alone starting) in the league. The stereotype reasons were always intelligence and leadership concerns. Obviously those issues have all been disproven and Vince Young may very well be the first pick in the draft.

After the media stopped referring to black QB's AS "black QB's" and began just calling them QB's it took the emphasis off of color and placed it where it belongs - on their talent and ability. It's taken a very long time - to long; But I suspect that in the very near future we'll stop hearing the media use the phrase "Black HC" and hopefully much of the current mindset will evaporate as it did with QB's.

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January 18th, 2006, 5:15 pm
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BIGROC34 wrote:
I find it so funny that some many people don't think this is an issue. Perhaps it is becuase it doesn't affect you, I don't know. What I do know is that minorities are once again getting shafted by NFL owners out of 10 jobs it is looking more and more like 9 of 10 will go to non-minorities with the only exception being Herm Edwards who already had a job. Folks can ignore the facts all you want, but 1 day the tables will be flipped and some of you will get to experience what it is like to be qualified and constantly get denied OPPORTUNITY to advance. It is not a feeling that just goes away or gets better.


Nobody is saying that racism is not an issue in the world today. But in the NFL the dividing lines have been dissolved considerably the past ten years or so. You want more minority coaches to get the head coaching jobs, because why? JUST because they are black. There are plenty of non-minority candidates who have much more experience and better qualifications (coaching on winning teams) than any of the minority candidates and I don't hear you bitching about them not getting a coaching job. Al Saunders? He has been the OC in Kansas City for years, and coached one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL. He got passed over for a minority candidate whom the Chiefs gave up a draft pick to get, coming from a team with a worse record than the Lions had this year. But it's OK that Herman was chosen because of his skin color. Why not complain about Tim Lewis or Mo Carthon not getting the job in KC? No, you only pinpoint the teams NOT hiring the minorities, stating that it's because of racism. The Jets hired Mangini and you are complaining because there are minority candidates with more experience than him. But the Jets just had a black coach, and now they've suddenly become a racist organization? So tell me, is it OK if the Lions hire Jim Haslett because he has NFL head coaching experience, but its not OK if they hire Rod Marinelli even though he's been in the NFL longer than Haslett? But only because there are other candidates that have a different skin color.

The NFL is about winning, pure and simple. I feel that if an NFL owner thought that an Australian Rugby player of Aboriginal descent and no knowledge of the NFL could turn his football team into a winner, he would hire him.

And along the lines of never 'feeling' the racism, I personally haven't. However, my father-in-law was passed over for entry into Annapolis out of high school. He had excellent grades, was a lettered athlete, his father was a decorated, retired Navy officer and former combat pilot. His uncle was a decorated, retired Navy officer and former naval scientist of distinction. Despite this impeccable pedigree, he was passed over for two minority applicants with lesser high school grades and no ties to the Navy. Why? Because the Federal government needed to add 'color' to the academy. This was back in the mid-70's.

As I said before, racism works both ways Roc. I, and many others in this forum have been telling you, don't want a black coach, or a white coach, or a young coach, or an old coach. I want a coach who will make the Lions into winners. That's the only credentials I'm interested in. And for what it's worth........I don't think Haslett or Marinelli are the best choices for that job.

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January 18th, 2006, 6:16 pm
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