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 Blacks And The Politics Of Racial Extortion 
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theAlphaMale wrote:
I am not saying this is the case everywhere or with everyone but if remove purpose or challenge entirely from someones life it has major consequences and they can be dire.


This kind of echoes what happened in Liberia


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The Liberia that white American constructed in 1847 is disintegrating. We cannot be optimistic, however, about what may emerge, because 150 year of degradation has meant the non-utilization and devaluation of Liberians human resources. Our constitution, our flag and many of our national symbols are replicas of from America, as if we had no history or culture of our own, as if we didn't have to think for ourselves.

The spirit of the people has been crushed. We lacked a sense of patriotism, of national identify. Our personal values are also skewed: The average Liberian equates hard work with slavery and thinks success lies in a pot-bellied, leisurely lifestyle. Status is important to him, but personal accomplishment is not. Instability and hopelessness are prevalent. Liberia has become a nation of endless talkers and beggars who consume much but produce nothing. The indigenous culture has been replaced by foreign values, though current-day Liberia is unlike either America or the rest of Africa.

America is responsible for the Liberia that exists today. To abandon what it has created would be immoral. American intervention can make a difference now, but it must be conceptually wiser than the 19th century self-serving assistance that helped create the current catastrophe.

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January 25th, 2006, 2:28 pm
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lionsfanak wrote:
Just a question. Has anyone seen the show on the History channel about Lincoln? It tackled the issue of slavery and the civil war. Lincoln was a great man in the sense of equality, but I feel he only did half of the job required. IMO, after freeing the slaves he should have offered to return each and every person to their respective countries at their request rather than set them free in a place where they would be subjected to discrimination for years to come.

As for reparations, I disagree. I do however feel that if anyone of any race feels they don't want to be here, they are free to leave. They may then find out how good things are here, even in some of the worst circumstances.


Lincoln wasn't the great humanitarian some make him out to be...

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." August 22, 1862 - Letter to Horace Greeley

He was more pro-Union than he was anti-slavery. It seems to me Lincoln just thought the two entities couldn't co-exist.


January 25th, 2006, 4:07 pm
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LionFan57 wrote:
This is why people hate lawyers. I ask a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question and you did everything possible to avoid the answer. The fact is (and it's even hidden in your post) had there been no slavery there would have been no Civil War.


Actually, the states' rights issue would have likely come to a head over a different issue if it hadn't been slavery.


LionFan57 wrote:
AND, I challenge you to show me evidence that the US Government helped and encouraged (aide and abet) slavery either financially or philosophically.


Let's see. I could talk about a lot of things here, but I think I'll just go ahead and quote Article IV Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution to clearly demonstrate that prior to the passage of the 13th Amendment (which was ratified in 1865 six months after Lee surrendered at Appomattox) the federal government endorsed slavery:

"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."

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January 25th, 2006, 6:07 pm
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LostinIA wrote:
LionFan57 wrote:
This is why people hate lawyers. I ask a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question and you did everything possible to avoid the answer. The fact is (and it's even hidden in your post) had there been no slavery there would have been no Civil War.


Actually, the states' rights issue would have likely come to a head over a different issue if it hadn't been slavery.


I submit that the 'States Rights' issue is historic doublespeak to cover up the the real and embarrassing issue of slavery. But I'll bite;...

Please then, list and rank in order of significance, the States Rights of the day that were in such jeopardy and of such enormous importance (besides slavery) to the Confederate States / Southern people that they would have gone to war over.

I'll wait... Image




Image


OK, my point is simple; take slavery and every aspect of it out of the equation and there was very little that could justify a war worth fighting.

Therefore I stand by my original post (which is my entire point) the US Federal Government was NOT responsible for slavery - they ended it. Therefore, if any reparations that are due (and there should be none due whatsoever) they would be the responsibility of the Confederate States.



LostinIA wrote:
LionFan57 wrote:
AND, I challenge you to show me evidence that the US Government helped and encouraged (aide and abet) slavery either financially or philosophically.


Let's see. I could talk about a lot of things here, but I think I'll just go ahead and quote Article IV Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution to clearly demonstrate that prior to the passage of the 13th Amendment (which was ratified in 1865 six months after Lee surrendered at Appomattox) the federal government endorsed slavery:

"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."


I don't know the specifics that surround this clause or if it even still exists within the constitution but I do know that:

1) Slavery has been abolished. I know that for a fact. I can't tell you the Article and Section #'s or date of the Supreme Court ruling but I assure you they exist and are contrary to; and override this piece you quote. You enjoy research - you find it.

2) 9/Apr/1865 General Lee surrendered his troops - War is over - no more slavery.

3) This Section is a far cry from 'aiding and abetting' anyway.


And again, you're way off point. I do not believe in reparations.

In any lawsuit you have to have 3 things:

1) A victim
2) Ascertainable damages to the victim
3) A responsible party able to pay.

There are no living victims, and the Confederate States are defunct and bankrupt and the Federal Government is not responsible (and never was) (which is the point I've been arguing).

I agree with Alpha's earlier post that [my words] racism disgusts me. I truly believe the 3 most embarrassing things this nation has ever done are:

1) The slaughter of and damage to the Native American Indians.
2) Slavery.
3) Internment camps for the Japanese Americans during WWII.

In my opinion the interned Japanese (still living) have a better legal ground and chance at financial restitution than the ancestors of slaves.

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January 25th, 2006, 8:30 pm
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Okay, first on causes of the Civil War let's just agree to disagree because it's obvious that we're not going to get anywhere with that discussion.

Second, the federal government ending slavery does not erase the fact that it supported it for almost 100 years prior to that. Therefore, you can't say that the federal government bore no responsibility for perpetuating the institution of slavery in the U.S. That would be like saying the federal government wasn't responsible for Prohibition (making alcohol consumption in the U.S. illegal) because it later changed its mind. The fact that they changed their minds doesn't mean they weren't the ones who enacted it in the first place.

With that said, just because the federal government clearly codified and supported the legal institution of slavery doesn't mean I believe that reparations should be paid. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument, not arguing for reparations.

Also, you can't erase things from the Constitution, you can only add things to it. In answer to your request for research, I'll simply point out that I already referenced in my original post that the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, ratified in 1865, abolished slavery. Up until that amendment was ratified, slavery was legal in the U.S.

Oh, and "a far cry from aiding and abetting?" Seriously? The federal government made part of its founding document that a person held to service or labour (thus recognizing the legality of holding of someone to service or labor, aka slavery) is not freed if they escape, but must be returned to the person that "owned" them. It not only recognized the legalizity of slavery but made it so that anyone who escaped was legally required to be returned to their master. How is that not aiding and abetting the institution of slavery??

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January 25th, 2006, 10:21 pm
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OK, time for me to get in on this.

Slavery has occurred on many levels in many countries throughout history. It is not exclusive to the United States. Its practice was originated thousands of years ago, before the time of Christ. There are many documented cases of predominantly black countries that took slaves from other predominantly black countries. In fact, the Dutch traders who learned slave capturing learned it from the Ethiopians. It was the Ethiopians that not only showed them how to capture slaves, but where to search for them. And, in fact, there were instances were tribal chiefs brokered deals with those slave traders to save their own people at the expense of enemy tribes throughout Africa.

Slavery is/was an ugly mark on HUMAN history, not just white history or American history. It has been a part of the natural evolution of human civilization. Many of the Caucasian Americans living in the United States came here generations beyond the existence of slavery in America. For any black American to expect reparations for the years of slavery of their ancestors is simply out of the question. No one alive took place in slavery, either as a slave or as an owner.

If that will be the precedence, I should be able to sue the Italian government and state that my ancestors from southern Italy were enslaved by the Roman empire. Where's my $$$? How about the Greeks who were driven out of their homelands and lost allt hey had to the Turks? I guess my wife can sue the Turkish government for the financial losses her family endured.

Slavery has been dead and gone for a long time. To try and trudge it up now for the sake of money shows what some of these people are all about. You want a better life? Do what 99% of ALL Americans are forced to do.........work for it. Work hard for it, and stop expecting handouts.

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January 28th, 2006, 7:17 pm
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Bravo Mike!!! =D> Very well said....and I agree

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January 29th, 2006, 12:05 pm
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I think it's funny how the "why me" zealots disappear when the topic is actually being discussed... It appears that they prefer to hijack threads and spread negativity than actually engage on the merits of the discussion...


January 29th, 2006, 2:10 pm
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Excellent debate and i really cant think of much to add except for:

I think we should all remember that had it not been for the 2/3's clause in the constituation and the States rights the southern States would have never signed the original constituation, the only way to get a government formed was to give in to the Souths demands, really from day one the count down to civil war was started.


January 29th, 2006, 11:49 pm
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I want to start of by saying that I hate racism and that Article crossed the line byt saying some Ignorant stuff like a well fare comment, there are allot fo white people on that also and some otehr things

Anyway I agree with LF57 that with out slavery there would be no war becuase the south would have been a completely different place becuase they would have been allot more like the north as far as economics go. I also say that reperations are bull crap I mean were you in the coton feilds what no then get over it. I also think that we need to change the how we treat the Native Americans as in they need to be intergraded into society more instead of kinda being a indepenent people within america, lso I dont mean for them to forget there heritage but dont use the heritage to your advantage.

Also Slavery was already in america before it was a country and slavery dates back to befoe Rome. Also the slave "trade" was started by Portagual.

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January 30th, 2006, 7:57 pm
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BRAVO! I loved the article! However it did leave out a few key points that I'd like to add to it..............

1. Slavery is always automaticaly drawn to starting w/the "whites": I do believe that the first people involved in the slave racket would have been the Egyptians enslaving other Egyptains: Who do you think built all of them tombs, etc.?

2. Why do Black Americans not file a lawsuit agaist the Tribes of Africa for them helping to catch them and selling them to European traders? Would this not be the actual REAL begining of that story?

3. Did White/European and other cultures Yellow/Asian, etc. not come to this country in the same manner; with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Many of them gave their lifes saving, just to get the boat trip here, did they not? Difference is that, these people made a life for themselves over here:

4. I've always wondered why their "said to be" leaders have not tried to build a cultural bridge back to their "Motherland"? Learn about the Tribes that they origionaly came from, learn their true religion, learn their true language, etc. In the process of learning also teach! Show Black Americans a better path here; as well as Africans over there:

5. Why are the deaths of Non Black Americans in the Civil War always forgotten? How many Whites fought and died so that they could be free from slavery? Who started the war-what color were they?

6. Did the Italians and Irish not have it bad on American soil when they first landed?

7. Did the Native Americans rather fight and die, rather than become broken into slavery?

8. How many of these Multi-Million dollar NBA players, Rappers, etc. invest money in Urban areas? Now, how many of their homes are shown on MTV's Cribs with Gold bottoms in swimming pools, 6 Bentlys (Cars), refrigerators packed with Crisstyle ($$$Champagene), etc.?

9. How many NBA players and Rappers rushed to pull the people of New Orleans from the sewage water? How many did you see on TV and in the papers?

Till again.........
yours to desecrate!
-RedCrow

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February 10th, 2006, 11:31 am
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Stallion wrote:

I also think that we need to change the how we treat the Native Americans as in they need to be intergraded into society more instead of kinda being a indepenent people within america, lso I dont mean for them to forget there heritage but dont use the heritage to your advantage.


I believe that Tribes should STAY allowed to govern themselves! I am a mixed blood (Tuscarora-Iroquois & English (Hotham: Order Of The Bath Knighthood)), urban Native mix whom never lived one day on the rez: I grew up in Detroit's south side: My Tribe owns no Casino, etc. I walk where you walk, I work where you work, I live where you live, etc.

It has been hard for me as a man to rebuild the Tribal ties and learn of Traditions: My Great GrandFather left the reservation for work; working in the coal mines of Kentucky and West Virgina.........my GrandMother made it to Michigan, her children got into the Automotive work: While my family did indeed find a better financial life off of the reservation, they found a worst spiritual one off of the reservation also: They also did indeed loose some of their Traditions, which my generation seems to be helping restore:

The American Government and School system is built more so on a Christan foundation rather than a "color" code in this coutry: I prefer Traditions and the Old Ways: I find it beautiful when ANY culture is Proud and Practices their own Traditions, Religion, Language, etc. I wish that there were more it!

I'm VERY opposed to my view on the Black American, due to the fact perhaps w/my being part Native American (my Fathers full blood, my Mothers mixed)........I see them as a people that allowed themselves to be broken: Native Americans fought with everything to stay free from slavery, to hold onto their religions, to hold onto their lanugages, their traditions, etc. Those before me may have been defeated on paper, but they were NEVER defeated in roots, pride, nor spirit!

Till again........
yours to desecrate!
-Joe StormBird aka RedCrow

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February 10th, 2006, 12:12 pm
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De_RedCrow wrote:
1. Slavery is always automaticaly drawn to starting w/the "whites": I do believe that the first people involved in the slave racket would have been the Egyptians enslaving other Egyptains: Who do you think built all of them tombs, etc.?


What difference does that make? If you do something wrong, you're not morally exonerated if someone else does it as well.
Quote:
2. Why do Black Americans not file a lawsuit agaist the Tribes of Africa for them helping to catch them and selling them to European traders? Would this not be the actual REAL begining of that story?


If those countries had courts that would have the power to enforce those judgments maybe they would. There's also a proof problem (see my answer to 4).
Quote:
3. Did White/European and other cultures Yellow/Asian, etc. not come to this country in the same manner; with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Many of them gave their lifes saving, just to get the boat trip here, did they not? Difference is that, these people made a life for themselves over here:


You know maybe the whole coming in chains thing made a difference. Or maybe that's just me.
Quote:
4. I've always wondered why their "said to be" leaders have not tried to build a cultural bridge back to their "Motherland"? Learn about the Tribes that they origionaly came from, learn their true religion, learn their true language, etc. In the process of learning also teach! Show Black Americans a better path here; as well as Africans over there:


Because nobody knows what tribes they came from. It's not like the slavers took detailed records of what tribes each slave belonged to and traced them throughout the generations. Some African Americans have tried to reclaim their culture more generally rather than focusing on a specific tribe, which is impossible.
Quote:
5. Why are the deaths of Non Black Americans in the Civil War always forgotten? How many Whites fought and died so that they could be free from slavery? Who started the war-what color were they?


Do you remember any Black deaths in the civil war?
Quote:
6. Did the Italians and Irish not have it bad on American soil when they first landed?


Yes, they did.
Quote:
7. Did the Native Americans rather fight and die, rather than become broken into slavery?


:?:
Quote:
8. How many of these Multi-Million dollar NBA players, Rappers, etc. invest money in Urban areas? Now, how many of their homes are shown on MTV's Cribs with Gold bottoms in swimming pools, 6 Bentlys (Cars), refrigerators packed with Crisstyle ($$$Champagene), etc.?


I would bet quite a few of them. How many of those rich white people in Cribs invest in urban areas? Or in agricultural areas with poor whites?
Quote:
9. How many NBA players and Rappers rushed to pull the people of New Orleans from the sewage water? How many did you see on TV and in the papers?


Some Rappers
http://www.wqad.com/Global/story.asp?S=3823436
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165.html
http://rap.about.com/b/a/199422.htm

Some NBA'ers
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9245803/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9284053/

There's more. I just got tired of pasting links into this post. That said, I don't agree with reparations either.

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February 10th, 2006, 1:03 pm
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Strawberries&Chocolat wrote:
De_RedCrow wrote:
1. Slavery is always automaticaly drawn to starting w/the "whites": I do believe that the first people involved in the slave racket would have been the Egyptians enslaving other Egyptains: Who do you think built all of them tombs, etc.?


What difference does that make? If you do something wrong, you're not morally exonerated if someone else does it as well.
Quote:

*******************
It makes alot of difference: Egyptains are basically black are they not? So in short Blacks enslaved other Blacks..........then well, do you believe in Karma: Everything come back to you Thrice:
*******************

2. Why do Black Americans not file a lawsuit agaist the Tribes of Africa for them helping to catch them and selling them to European traders? Would this not be the actual REAL begining of that story?


If those countries had courts that would have the power to enforce those judgments maybe they would. There's also a proof problem (see my answer to 4).
Quote:

*************************
Oh yea I forgot people still from Mosquito bites over there: Theres a HUGE proof problem here also -NO existing slaves to Pay!
*************************

3. Did White/European and other cultures Yellow/Asian, etc. not come to this country in the same manner; with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Many of them gave their lifes saving, just to get the boat trip here, did they not? Difference is that, these people made a life for themselves over here:


You know maybe the whole coming in chains thing made a difference. Or maybe that's just me.
Quote:

*****************************
THEM CHAINS ARE ON THEIR MINDS! The chains were broken long ago! Difference is the Euro's and Asians had the back-bone to build lives rather than excuses for failure! YOUR life is what YOU make it! I work for a supplier of the Big Three auto companies rather than a Big Three company itself becuase they have to have so many Blacks now: Affirmanitive Action put many non black americans out of work! Those before helped to BUILD them places and I cannot even get a job there becuase this person that HAS TO BE given a job weather they are qualtified or not is working there -often not even wanting to work or complaining the whole time! WHOS IN CHAINS NOW? It sure as hell is not the Black American!
Do you see Italian, Asian, Irish, etc. sons and brothers selling Crack to their own Mothers and Sisters? NO! I grew up seeing this EVERYDAY!
I do believe that PRIDE and WORK ETHIC are what divides the two groupings, not arriving in chains: Watch the news tonight and report back to me tomorrow: lmao:
**********************************

4. I've always wondered why their "said to be" leaders have not tried to build a cultural bridge back to their "Motherland"? Learn about the Tribes that they origionaly came from, learn their true religion, learn their true language, etc. In the process of learning also teach! Show Black Americans a better path here; as well as Africans over there:


Because nobody knows what tribes they came from. It's not like the slavers took detailed records of what tribes each slave belonged to and traced them throughout the generations. Some African Americans have tried to reclaim their culture more generally rather than focusing on a specific tribe, which is impossible.
Quote:

*********************************
Nobody knows becuase they have not tried! It is much easier to say, I don't know and give up at go......rather than to research, make a trip there and learn from the Elders there! Again, I believe that this goes back to PRIDE and WORK ETHIC! EVERYTHING that one desires to know is out there if one wishes to be a student bad enough!
**********************************

5. Why are the deaths of Non Black Americans in the Civil War always forgotten? How many Whites fought and died so that they could be free from slavery? Who started the war-what color were they?


Do you remember any Black deaths in the civil war?
Quote:

**********************************
Crispis Adkis was the first Black American to get killed in the Civil War! Do you believe that Black soldiers could've defeated the south without the assistance of Non Black soldiers?
**********************************

6. Did the Italians and Irish not have it bad on American soil when they first landed?


Yes, they did.
Quote:

***********************************
Now how many Italians and Irish own and operate family business's and hold good paying respectable jobs now? Again, I refer back to PRIDE and WORK ETHIC!
***********************************

7. Did the Native Americans rather fight and die, rather than become broken into slavery?


:?:
Quote:

************************************
Yes! Check your history; Native Americans would rather fight than become slaves! They tried to enslave Native Americans before they even made the first trip to Africa! Natives in the field would either fight and die, or flight and live to fight again: Natives that were caught and tried into slavery committed suicide if they could'nt fight their way out of the situation! NATIVES DID NOT LET THEM BREAK THEM! I really have NO pitty for the dog that will lie there and let his owner kick him over and over; sorry but to me that is a dog that is no good for hunting, protection, etc. it has no purpose! Now the dog that is not lame enough to lie there, the one that will react to getting kicked; I have respect for that dog!

While were on dogs: Even compare the dogs of choice if you will:
Native Americans = Wolf.........symbol of survival, great protector, mystic, symbol of medicene, travels in a pack (= foundation/family structure):
Black Americans = Pit Bull (most that I know, prefer this breed).......symbol of a fighting dog, good for nothing but exploitation in a back yard ring and bet on by drug dealers, etc.

Really it is all there if you look:
***************************************

8. How many of these Multi-Million dollar NBA players, Rappers, etc. invest money in Urban areas? Now, how many of their homes are shown on MTV's Cribs with Gold bottoms in swimming pools, 6 Bentlys (Cars), refrigerators packed with Crisstyle ($$$Champagene), etc.?


I would bet quite a few of them. How many of those rich white people in Cribs invest in urban areas? Or in agricultural areas with poor whites?
Quote:

****************************************
Why would they desire to invest in Urban areas? I would'nt! I refuse to give a hand out to a person that will not find the personal strength to help themselves! I was born and raised in Detroit's south side......then I grew up, worked hard, saved money and bought a house down in beautiful Monroe county! NO ones makes anyone stay in the neighborhood......people are there becuase they choose to be! Again I refer back to PRIDE! Materalism will get one no where! It cracks me up to see a person with a neckless on that is as big as a rope, then have gold teeth, the latest $200 shoes on, etc. BUT have $0 in the bank-own NO property, etc. LMAO!
*****************************************

9. How many NBA players and Rappers rushed to pull the people of New Orleans from the sewage water? How many did you see on TV and in the papers?


Some Rappers
http://www.wqad.com/Global/story.asp?S=3823436
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165.html
http://rap.about.com/b/a/199422.htm

Some NBA'ers
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9245803/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9284053/

There's more. I just got tired of pasting links into this post. That said, I don't agree with reparations either.

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February 10th, 2006, 6:27 pm
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