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 State of the Union Fact Check 
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust
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Yorick wrote:
This is the most corrupt administration in US history. They passed Cleveland a long time ago. You want professional liars and thieves to instill morality in our society?



I completely agree Yorick this is the worst administration, probably ever. They are so imbeded with big oil, and there record profits. Its just lip service about going in a different energy direction. Who says only conservative christians have morals???????? Gah I cant stand even thinking about this, sorry about the ramble.

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February 2nd, 2006, 7:31 am
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Modmin Dude
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Yorick wrote:
This is the most corrupt administration in US history. They passed Cleveland a long time ago. You want professional liars and thieves to instill morality in our society?


Do you have some proof of that?

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February 2nd, 2006, 8:58 am
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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It is an evaluative question. Professional US historians polled on this question of "worst" and "most corrupt" for the most part say he is. I am not talking about a formal survey, but roundtable discussions I have seen.

That suggests that the textbooks your children will read will say the same. There is about a ten year lag before current events become history.

I do not disagree for a moment with WJB that our society is very decadent and frightenly reminiscent of Rome during the Late Empire. What I reject is his advocation of a seemingly fascist solution. Instilling values from above has historically carried a very high moral cost. More simply, you cannot ask the fox to tend to the chickens. A growing number of the leaders of the party advocating morals are going to trial for corruption, fraud, and ethical violations. The gap between their practice and what their preach is so vast that I find the prospect of them rejuvenating our society (which I am in favor of) silly.

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February 2nd, 2006, 2:00 pm
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Yorick wrote:
It is an evaluative question. Professional US historians polled on this question of "worst" and "most corrupt" for the most part say he is. I am not talking about a formal survey, but roundtable discussions I have seen.

That suggests that the textbooks your children will read will say the same. There is about a ten year lag before current events become history.

I do not disagree for a moment with WJB that our society is very decadent and frightenly reminiscent of Rome during the Late Empire. What I reject is his advocation of a seemingly fascist solution. Instilling values from above has historically carried a very high moral cost. More simply, you cannot ask the fox to tend to the chickens. A growing number of the leaders of the party advocating morals are going to trial for corruption, fraud, and ethical violations. The gap between their practice and what their preach is so vast that I find the prospect of them rejuvenating our society (which I am in favor of) silly.


Yorik, I too am skeptical of my AUTHORITATIVE stance on morality (it's NOT Fascism, as a necessary component of Fascism has to do with a rallying ones troops of citizens or a mobilization as such... w/e GB is doing it's not that IMO)... but if not from the top then where? From the church? From the schools? Is it any less intrusive if it comes from street level bureaucrats such as teachers, police officers, and such??? Personally I don't think so. I do think teachers may be the best source and perhaps to buffer against the lives some parents lead and what should and should not be morally acceptable. Still, I don't find it any less intrusive when it comes from them compared to the top of the administration.

In my opinion short sighted goals, and a demand for change "now" rather than in a year or two has brought us away from implementing change through probably the most powerful means we have available - societial norms and education. IMO that is a HUGE short fall with American Politics. Great things have been done through changeing and socializing norms rather than changing policy. One of them being the Nazi regiem's use of dehumanizing Jews, and altering of legal philosophy IN LAW SCHOOLS for YEARS prior to attempting to change laws and concepts within the German legal institution. While those changes were disgustingly horrific, the shift in ideology, thinking, and power, in a realtively short period of time, (approximately 6-7 years of indoctrination of teachers, and students, along with changes in faculty) was unarguably great. In my opinion, in more instances than we care to admit education, rather than policy changes should be solution. Take that new stupid azz law that says you're supposed to move over a lane when a cop has someone pulled over at the side of the expressway. That should never be a law.. it's just one more thing they can pile on and give you a ticket for... the law is to "protect" police officers, and it's not meant to force people to get over if there's no room... accidents have been caused by this ridiculously insane law... people swirve and act as if there is a brick wall in their lane at the tail of the cop car... it causes more danger than it curbs... Education doesn't always have to come by way of a classroom... Billboards for current drivers, and adding to the circulum of driver instructors would have been more than sufficient for the task. Yet we legislate away... I am disgusted by our Country's willingness to legislate away freedom and common sense....

Now we have an administration that is attempting to legislate/dictate morality... is that right? I personally don't think so, but that's not to say there isn't an intrinsic good that can come out of it. Maybe they are morally corrupt... maybe they are "professional liars and theves".. IMO that has remained to be seen... But I say this... even if they are, that's on them. "Do as I say and not as I do" works sometimes... it might have a fundemental flaw of validity, but in this case I really don't think it has. They're saying to do RIGHT... and most of it is an objective not subjective right... If you make a committment to stay with someone for the rest of your life, do it. If you take part in an action that concieves a baby, fulfill it. I'm pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I think having an abortion is right. I think the option should be there and I think it is a bigger crime to bring a child into a family that doesn't want it/can't support it than to simply not give it a chance. I know, I grew up in one of those houses. And while I'm not suicidal in any way shape or form I don't think any child should have to grow up as I did. And, honestly, I can objectively say that given the option, if the pen was in my hand, I would have chose to be aborted after a rational decision and review of the facts. However, abortion in many instances has become a form of birthcontrol. Do as you please, when you please and how you please... and there's an "escape plan" To that end I do not agree... I'm not opposed of someone other than the administration aiding in the moral repair of our country. I'm just not sure where else it could/should come from. It's certainly not going to come from the bottom... as, if individuals were interested in cleaning themselves up, they would have done it a long time ago...


February 2nd, 2006, 2:51 pm
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_ ... 11_lawsuit

Funny how he always invokes 9/11?

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February 2nd, 2006, 11:16 pm
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National Champion
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Image

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February 2nd, 2006, 11:41 pm
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Bubbles the Lion
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love the graphic strawberries

now time for some political rants from me! :D :D

1. Bush and his party seem to be trying to instill Christian morals and ideals into our country, that is garbage... Separation of Church and State?

2. Bush not recognizing Hamas? Understood they are a terrorist group but none the less they democratically won power over the Palestinian "State." Israel came into existence via the UK supporting Jewish terrorism of the Palestinian nation. The Palestinians have been living as second class citizens since. Yet his stance is to support Israel and their suppression of the democratic elections of Palestine (the elections will probably mean much less if the Conservative Israeli party regains control of the government in the upcoming elections, they'll most likely recind the rights that were recently given to the Palestinians.) more garbage (did Bush lay down grounds under which he'd deal with Hamas, if so what are they?)

3. Another disgusting problem with our country is that two men or two women cannot marry. This idea that they are lesser people and don't deserve the benefits that straight life partners receive is gross. Okay so don't ruin the sanctity of marriage but let them receive the benefits of being married through their civil unions at least. I may not like seeing two dudes kissing and all over each other out in public but still that doesnt mean they're second class citizens.

4. This last political and ideological problem I have doesn't necessarily have to do with Bush but more his far right supporters. Recently I heard that some pharmacists and store owners were going to start implementing their moral views on what they will and won't sell in their stores. Store owners should have the right to decide what will and won't be sold in their stores. But the idea that a pharmacist would refuse to fill a prescription on moral grounds is more far right BS.

thats all the ranting for this post, please enlighten me if I have some factual errors in here and also let me here the other side of the argument. :D :D


February 3rd, 2006, 12:51 am
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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You need to update your map Strawberries. The conservatives just won power in Canada. Jesus land extend way up into the prairies.

I think we need to distinguish between religious conservatives that would like to see the state instill their morals from the top, and those at the top who are quite decadent and exploit the issue for their own pecuniary gain.

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February 3rd, 2006, 7:20 am
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust
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Joined: February 13th, 2005, 3:33 pm
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Matt_MIllen wrote:
love the graphic strawberries

now time for some political rants from me! :D :D

1. Bush and his party seem to be trying to instill Christian morals and ideals into our country, that is garbage... Separation of Church and State?

2. Bush not recognizing Hamas? Understood they are a terrorist group but none the less they democratically won power over the Palestinian "State." Israel came into existence via the UK supporting Jewish terrorism of the Palestinian nation. The Palestinians have been living as second class citizens since. Yet his stance is to support Israel and their suppression of the democratic elections of Palestine (the elections will probably mean much less if the Conservative Israeli party regains control of the government in the upcoming elections, they'll most likely recind the rights that were recently given to the Palestinians.) more garbage (did Bush lay down grounds under which he'd deal with Hamas, if so what are they?)

3. Another disgusting problem with our country is that two men or two women cannot marry. This idea that they are lesser people and don't deserve the benefits that straight life partners receive is gross. Okay so don't ruin the sanctity of marriage but let them receive the benefits of being married through their civil unions at least. I may not like seeing two dudes kissing and all over each other out in public but still that doesnt mean they're second class citizens.

4. This last political and ideological problem I have doesn't necessarily have to do with Bush but more his far right supporters. Recently I heard that some pharmacists and store owners were going to start implementing their moral views on what they will and won't sell in their stores. Store owners should have the right to decide what will and won't be sold in their stores. But the idea that a pharmacist would refuse to fill a prescription on moral grounds is more far right BS.

thats all the ranting for this post, please enlighten me if I have some factual errors in here and also let me here the other side of the argument. :D :D



I completely agree with everything you have here MattMillen. The seperation of Church and State doesnt exist according to this administration. They want conservative Christian views, and sorry to say they are outdated. They dont beleive people should make their own decisions, they think the bible is law, its not. Gays should be allowed to marry, as you say they are not second class citizens, they have less rights than illegal aliens into our country, its ridiculous.

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February 3rd, 2006, 8:02 am
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