View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently November 25th, 2014, 7:19 pm



Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Chris Carter on Joey 
Author Message
Bubbles the Lion
User avatar

Joined: December 14th, 2004, 10:09 pm
Posts: 60
Location: USA
Post 
Legend,

I disagree with you. Joey did very well in 2:00 situations last year, and I can't believe you're even suggesting that the defense just handed a winning situation over in every game that was lost. There certainly were mistakes on both sides of the ball, but that blame needs to be spread out a little. Dropped passes and missed PATs hurt just as much as bad throws.

I don't think that Joey is a headcase at all, and if he's still here, which I think he will be, I believe that he will be the starter. I trust that the coaching staff knows a little more about the players than we do... I don't think Joey continued to start last year because of a fragile psyche, I think it was because he was better than McMahon. This year, with Garcia around, it's a totally different story. If he stinks, yank him.

I didn't say the coaches were ineffective with the running game, I said they didn't know how to utilize it properly, just like they don't seem to be able to utilize most of the talent on their roster.

I didn't say the Lions were looking for a savior, I said there IS a savior syndrome in Detroit, especially where QB's are concerned. Each new one is "the next big thing and going to turn the team around". You can't turn a team around that's complete crap to begin with. They finally have a team built that doesn't just have one good player (ala Barry), but has some very, very good players that could be legitimate threats. For the Lions to go ahead and draft yet ANOTHER QB, just when the team is starting to look good, makes absolutely NO SENSE to me.

And you're right. The QB needs to play well, and so does EVERYONE ELSE.

_________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. - Homer Simpson


April 10th, 2005, 10:47 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Player
User avatar

Joined: April 5th, 2005, 7:03 am
Posts: 7411
Location: Ford Field - 35 yard line / Row 32
Post 
Cute Banana,

I agree with you 100%.

I also think people need to realize that Jeff Garcia, most likely, cannot physically play an entire season. I know this sounds aweful but he's to old and fragile. If he had to come in for a game or 3 or 6 that's one thing; but for Garcia to start AND finish 16 games simply can't happen. He'll be tapped out after 6 games.

Granted Joey needs to play better - but swapping Garcia for Harrington and expecting a better season won't work.


April 11th, 2005, 5:12 am
Profile WWW
Water Boy

Joined: April 11th, 2005, 9:15 am
Posts: 3
Post 
I'm an on the fence kind of guy with Joey. I was a supporter, but don't think he played very well the second part of the season. So take this as a fairly neutral responce.

Joeys strengths in college have not shown up well in the NFL. He was a fantastic 2:00 minute player in college. The whole he doesn't have a cannon for an arm arguement is rediculous. Touch is far more important unless you are throwing a 40 yard bomb which is something done maybe 2 times a YEAR. His arm is mediocre for an NFL QB, or Good enough.

The evaluation of last year is again tough, because as the running game came on, the WR's fell apart. KJ's first good game was the Giants, this was also the game both Williams and KJ agrivated their injuries. Williams never returned to 100%, leaving Joey Hakim, Streets, and his best option Swinton.

I believe his problems are caused mostly by the WR carousel and lack of faith in his recievers. We saw in a couple games how good he can be, but he seems to have a hard time adjusting to the pressure at this level, and he trys to make every play perfect.

Dropped balls are another excuse he is given often. But their is one common denominator with all those droped balls, and 7 different recievers who suddenly develop that trait in Detroit, Joey. He IS part of that problem. Not all of them, but several were his fault. Balls thrown too hard, balls thrown behind, balls thrown just out of reach.


The fact he allmost never gets sacked is not because of the great play of the offensive line. When I hear people say that I wonder if they actually watched any Lions games. He is running for his life every play. He does a great job getting rid of the ball. He has great awareness in that respect.

Overall I see some improvement in Joey, I think with a healthy Roy and Crog on the field he may surprise next year. If he doesn't, yank that carpet. Move on. Don't get me wrong, he will still be learning this year, it wont be his best, but it should be significantly better, no more excuses.


April 11th, 2005, 9:36 am
Profile
Varsity Captain
User avatar

Joined: September 9th, 2004, 12:21 pm
Posts: 287
Location: Mt. Pleasant, MI
Post 
The Legend wrote:
Brian, I agree with you 100%. No huddle offense w Joey? I dont see how that works with his strengths. This year in a two minute drill during a kill clock play Joey faked a throw before spiking the ball. Pretty stupid play during a clutch situation...


:arrow: The no huddle offense was not my idea, just something I heard "Mooch" talk about a few months ago, I wish I had a link for you, but I don't. You may be able to find it in the archives at Lions official web site.

:arrow:


April 11th, 2005, 10:36 am
Profile YIM
Peewee Leaguer

Joined: February 9th, 2005, 11:09 am
Posts: 46
Location: Middle of the Mitten
Post 
Quote:
Brian and BonitaChiquita,

I'm reading both your points and I agree with different parts of both.

As far as the receivers go - I have to go with the pretty banana (God, I can't believe I'm saying that) they have not gotten it done. Understandably CR was out and RW played hurt but the rest couldn't catch a cold.

And Brian I think you're right on - Joey has been soft. Can you imagine Bret Favre not jumping in someone's face and demanding a better performance. You are right on when you say he has no control and no one rallies around him.

As for the O-line - yes they improved as the season went on and true Joey didn't get sacked that often but lets face it, a) we where always behind and throwing to catch up; so defenses were dropping back into coverage. And, b) Even with that Joey was hurried - he had very little time.

Having said that I think adding DeMulling will help this year.

I agree that Detroit does suffer the savior syndrome and that Joey has improved but you can't let a rotating supporting cast be an excuse for poor play or leadership skills.

As for play calling - it's been so predictable at times it's just not funny. That positively won't help.

I think the bottom line is that there won't be any more excuses - this is the year Joey has got to deliver. I only hope he gets a chance and Mooch doesn't pull him to soon.

(It's a great conversation though - thanks for letting me but in).


This entry pretty much sums up what I have been thinking for quite awhile. And I am not a Harrington fan or basher. All I give a damn about is the Lions winning. I don't care who is playing at what position.

EDIT: TC - I just wanted to make your post a little more readable so I changed the color and format a little. I didn't edit any content. - Thanx, Wags

_________________
I am 35, and even though during my life the Lions have "bit the dust" more than their opponents have, I am forever a loyal fan. For some strange reason, I still believe that I will see the Lions in the Super Bowl in my lifetime.


April 11th, 2005, 2:46 pm
Profile
Varsity Captain
User avatar

Joined: September 9th, 2004, 12:21 pm
Posts: 287
Location: Mt. Pleasant, MI
Post 
:arrow: I believe Bonita is right on with the fact that Harrington has had a receiving "carousel" to throw to. That makes developing timing with his receivers very difficult. I have heard the arguments about his balls being hard to catch, I disagree. How many times can you hit a receiver in the numbers or hands and watch them drop it! He can't catch it for them!

Joey does need to come in with more of an attitude this year and start to TAKE control of the huddle. He needs to demand respect in the huddle and start chewing out receivers after they drop a ball. Some of Joey's struggles can be attributed to Marriucci's ultra conservative play calling. My family still thinks I'm a football genius because of the unbelievable number of plays that I correctly call before they break the huddle. You think if I can do that, that defensive coordinators can't?

Football is a team sport and the Lions problems of the past three years can not be laid in his lap alone. Will Joey ever be a Marino or Manning? No, but he can and probably will be a very servicable QB. It doesn't take a Marino or Manning to win games, it takes a good football TEAM.

Yes Joey has his faults, but he may very well surprise a few people with some more progression. If Marriucci turns the offensive play calling over to Tolner like Millen has told him to do, I expect to see some very positive things from Joey this year.

:arrow:


April 11th, 2005, 4:15 pm
Profile YIM
Head Cheerleader

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:16 am
Posts: 30
Location: Orlando, FL
Post 
Anyone who says Mike was better and/or could be a better QB than Joey, must be blind....or just plain stupid.


April 11th, 2005, 4:58 pm
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pm
Posts: 3786
Location: WSU
Post 
Anyone have a link to an official dropped passes site? I am sick of excuses for Joey Harrington, even if he completes 50 more passes he still doesnt touch Culpepper's comp. percentage. Anyone who thinks he is an accurate passer needs to take a mini mental status examination. Hey tough banana guy, I am sorry that you refuse to think that the Lions had 4th quarter drives with opportunities to tie or win and wonder how it is that such games were on TV and could be viewed by the public. I never said that the "d" handed them ideal situations but they did get them the ball back over and over. Why exactly do you think Joey is good at the 3 min drill? bc he can complete some passed to Bryson in the prevent or shy of the end zone to Az Hakim as time expires?


Last edited by The Legend on April 11th, 2005, 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



April 11th, 2005, 8:48 pm
Profile
Bubbles the Lion
User avatar

Joined: December 14th, 2004, 10:09 pm
Posts: 60
Location: USA
Post 
Legend,

Please read a post before you rip it. No one is using dropped balls as an excuse, those are factors (along with bad throws) in losses that were team efforts with poor play by many positions, not just the QB. And I don't recall anyone ever stating that Joey is an accurate passer. I just said that dropped passes hurt just as much as bad throws, especially when either one of those could have put points on the board.

Please, point to me ONE game that you can point to just Joey and say, "He's the one who lost that game for us." You can't. Those losses are a combination of a lot of things, INCLUDING poor QB play...

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just stating the fact that Joey isn't the only problem on this team, and if you think he is, then YOU need to take a mini mental status examination.

Oh, and P.S. - I'm not a guy. :roll:

_________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. - Homer Simpson


April 11th, 2005, 9:21 pm
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pm
Posts: 3786
Location: WSU
Post 
vs MIN. Game 1. 1st play of drive to get back in game, tosses INT to Antoine Winfield. vs GB away. Horrible all game, then 0-7 in 4th quarter. vs WAS, getting WRs killed all game then in 2 minute O tosses to Bryson over and over. vs TEN. Fumble for touchdown. 2 minute drill end of game. 2nd and 3 with timeouts from TEN 16, 3 consecutive incompletions. vs JAX, playing like a fool for 60 minutes. vs CHI, a game we technically won. Throwing inoppurtune INT for TD in face of an obvious blitz to let them in it. vs GB home. Puts us out of the game in 2nd half w/ INT for TD.
vs MIN home. Chance to rush for 1st down late in game, decides to slide/tampax it and accept punt.


April 11th, 2005, 9:35 pm
Profile
QB Coach

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 8:33 pm
Posts: 3222
Post 
I agree Legend...

Other than the Minnesota game, Joey has never been effective in the two minute drill, and often throws games away.

Ms. Bonita...

As for the Two Minute Drill comment, Joey hasn't been solid at all. He doesn't come back and win games, which is the only statistic that matters.

Examples:
Vs Washington, 1:36 left, couldn't get the ball across the 50.
At Jacksonville, 1:36 left, went 4 and out, turned the ball over and Drummond bailed him out.
At Minnesota, 1:49 left, threw an interception to Winfield (did it last year too)
At Tennessee, 3:00 left, had 2nd and 3 at the TEN 13, and turned over on downs with 0:50 left.

That is just the games this year...

Remember, this is a guy who was coming out of college known as the "comeback kid", someone who carried his team, showed guts, and was a guy who you wanted at QB.

Now he comes to the NFL, doesn't have the confidence of his teammates, has never had a comeback win, and wets his pants in the pocket.

I've yet to see a receiver drop a pass in a two minute drill, this is from my observation. Rather, I have seen balls thrown at receiver's feet, behind their backs, etc.

The confidence isn't there. And that is the #1 thing you look for in a QB. Someone who believes that they are going to win every single game out there. Something that we thought we had in Joey, but obviously don't.

I'll give him a year, but i've scouted and watched so much football in my life to tell you that Joey doesn't have it. He isn't going to lead this team to the promised land. Sherman Lewis saw that, and bolted. A good quarterback makes his receivers and backs better. Was Brandon Stokley any good at Baltimore? How was Schroeder when he was here? I'm under the opinion that a good QB can do wonders for any team. Joey should be able to make other players better, that's what you do in football, help your team, and he has yet to do that.


April 11th, 2005, 11:18 pm
Profile WWW
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
Posts: 3811
Post 
I am really fatigued about talking about Joey, but those of you that want to indulge I did comprehensively crunch all those stats.[url=http://www.thelionsfanatics.com/insider_news_146.html[/url]Is Harrington Developing?[/url]


April 12th, 2005, 12:49 am
Profile
National Champion
User avatar

Joined: April 12th, 2005, 12:35 am
Posts: 881
Location: Boston, MA
Post 
Brian wrote:
I agree Legend...
As for the Two Minute Drill comment, Joey hasn't been solid at all. He doesn't come back and win games, which is the only statistic that matters.

Examples:
Vs Washington, 1:36 left, couldn't get the ball across the 50.
At Jacksonville, 1:36 left, went 4 and out, turned the ball over and Drummond bailed him out.
At Minnesota, 1:49 left, threw an interception to Winfield (did it last year too)
At Tennessee, 3:00 left, had 2nd and 3 at the TEN 13, and turned over on downs with 0:50 left.


Actually, didn't Joey get the Lions to the Washington 20 after driving 78 yards (See the NFL Gamecenter)? Although it does fall under the "too little to late" category, it's still somewhat impressive considering it was against one of the best defenses in football. Also, I think it's a bit harsh to blame the incompletion at the end of the Tennessee game on Joey. If I remember correctly, Roy Williams pointed out a specific coverage to the coaching staff that pretty much doomed the play and they called it anyway.

By the way, I just joined this forum and I think that it's great. It's such a step up from the morass of stupidity that masquerades as the official Lions forum.


April 12th, 2005, 1:19 am
Profile
5th Round Pick - Traded
User avatar

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pm
Posts: 1079
Post 
Poor receivers - yes there is no other way to put it. Vines and Swinton were undrafted castoffs who actually played better than some of the receivers Detroit has had come through here lately. Nobody is jumping to sign guys like Schroeder, Anderson or Streets. Alexander signed on to be the 2nd string TE in Denver and whatever happened to Ricks. If you can point to one player who has gone on to do something you might be able to make a point here. Also Schroeder was crap in GB they were as just as glad to get rid of him.

The Lions had a running game numbers wise but it was not a consistent run game. The Lions couldn't count on being able to run the ball. Jones would have 100 by half time and finish the game with 101.

Offensive line - Yes it improved over the second half of the season but there was no way it could have gotten worse. There were too many mental breakdowns in the form of penalties and blown assignments. They are slow and not athletic which is not good for WCO. I've never seen a team fail to convert 4th and inches or struggle to block a 4 man rush as much as this one.

How many "it" QBs in the NFL are there? Maybe at the most 5 at any given time. Other than that pretty much rest of the QBs are pretty much interchangeable. There are plenty of average QBs who win Super Bowls and go to Pro Bowls. And plenty of "it" QBs who don't.

As for Garcia apparently nobody watched him play in Cleveland last year. He had couple of performances that were worse than anything Harrington had. His performance vs Dallas last year was Ty Detmer worthy.

One more thing who really cares about Mike "3rd String" McMahon besides self appoint QB guru Marty Moronwig.


April 12th, 2005, 1:30 am
Profile
Stadium Announcer

Joined: March 31st, 2005, 9:27 pm
Posts: 70
Post 
Bottom line

drafting - coaching

I think Millen has done a very good job drafting, espicaly in the later rounds.

How has Mooch done in directing the team? For an offensive genius I think he needs to call his mentor for a refrehser course. How has his DC done? Well see this next year.


April 12th, 2005, 10:50 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: liontrax and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.