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 Best Wideout in three years? 
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1. Roy Williams
2. Andre Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Charles Collarbone
5. Mike Williams
6. Braylon Edwards
7. Troy Williamson
8. Reggie Williams

I can't believe that we're comparing Mushin Muhammad's statistics to Lynn Swann's. It's like comparing a dollar in the 50's to a dollar today.

Also, I don't understand why we're calling Super Bowls "intangibles." They seem very tangible to me. If someone asked me how many Super Bowls Terry Bradshaw won, I'd say "four."

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May 2nd, 2005, 11:25 pm
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N8Dog wrote:
Brian wrote:

Quote:
I don't think that you can reasonably state that Swann had a "Tremendous NFL Career"


I appreciate your opinion, however this is a perfect example of why criteria needs to be set when taking a poll. 4 SB's, SB MVP, 3 Pro Bowls, franchise leader in receptions, receiving yards, and touchdown receptions at the time of retirement, and Super Bowl records, including career receptions, career receiving yards, career touchdown receptions, yards in a game, and the highest punt return average in a game would be considered by many as a "tremendous" NFL career.


Nearly all those statistics can be completely misinterpreted.

4 Super Bowls isn't the result of one player, rather a great team that Swann was on.

Being the Super Bowl MVP just means you played good for one game. Desmond Howard, Dexter Jackson, Deion Branch, and others are recent Super Bowl MVPs... but that doesn't make anyone think higher of them.

3 Pro Bowls is usually achieved by any player that is above average... that's not a huge bragging stone.

During Swann's time, the passing game was far less complex, and less used by teams. Now his records are broken. And some of the records you listed aren't even worth noting. Highest punt return average in a game? Please.

Swann was indeed a great receiver. But he under my definition, he wasn't a "tremendous" player. Guys like Joe Montana are "tremendous". Swann currently doesn't hold any notable records in Pittsburgh. You can't be a tremendous player and not hold any records.

http://www.sportspool.com/football/nfl_history/pittsburgh_steelers_team_records.php


May 3rd, 2005, 1:43 am
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I'm not sure when anyone stated that Super Bowl's are intangibles. However, you're right. Comparing the two players I mentioned is like comparing the US dollar from two different eras. It seems that you are considering my comparison of two players rather than my intent of comparing two careers. I simply want clarification from the author as to what constitutes a good NFL career.

Quote:
Nearly all those statistics can be completely misinterpreted.


You're right. Just like asking, who will have the best NFL career, could be misinterpreted as being asked who will have the best stats.

Quote:
4 Super Bowls isn't the result of one player, rather a great team that Swann was on.


How is that a misinterpretation? He was a member of the team and his membership on that team is a piece of his career.

Quote:
Being the Super Bowl MVP just means you played good for one game. Desmond Howard, Dexter Jackson, Deion Branch, and others are recent Super Bowl MVPs... but that doesn't make anyone think higher of them.


You're right again, in part. Super Bowl MVP means you played good for one game, which is why most would agree that the other individuals you mentioned probably will not have NFL careers easily remembered. After all, a Super Bowl MVP award is only one ingredient of a career. The last part of your statement is 100% wrong. Their accomplishent in the respectictive Super Bowl played in, doesn't make you think any higher of them. It does make many, as well as myself think higher of them.

Quote:
3 Pro Bowls is usually achieved by any player that is above average... that's not a huge bragging stone.


Many players, every year, play above average without an invitation to the Pro Bowl. However, these accomplishments are, again, only ingredients making up a career.

Quote:
During Swann's time, the passing game was far less complex, and less used by teams. Now his records are broken. And some of the records you listed aren't even worth noting. Highest punt return average in a game? Please
.

You're right again! Geez, you were on a roll in stating the obvious...

Those records are now broken, but they were held by him at one time. Holding them are, AGAIN, additions to a career.

Quote:
Swann was indeed a great receiver. But he under my definition, he wasn't a "tremendous" player. Guys like Joe Montana are "tremendous". Swann currently doesn't hold any notable records in Pittsburgh. You can't be a tremendous player and not hold any records.


First, what is your definition? This whole discussion was started due to a lack of definition. Second, I agree, Joe Montana was a tremendous player and had a tremendous NFL career. Third, as I've stated, I'm comparing NFL careers in an attempt to decipher what is considered a good one. Although, by today's standards, Lynn Swann's numbers are average at best (which I've already stated and proved by comparing his to one of today's average receivers), his combined accomplishments do make for a "tremendous" NFL career. If having one's records broken discounts one's career, then why is doesn't a Hall of Fame induction only last until the accomplishments that were considered for induction, no longer elite when compared to numbers being put up by today's changing game?

Some of you are judging my argument with narrow minds. I compared two players' careers to make the point that a receivers catches and yards, does not an NFL career make. IMO, you have to look at all of the accomplishments, over the course of a career, to determine whether or not that career is "good", "average" or otherwise. However, that's my opinion. I'm still trying to find out the opinion of the original author. Without it, the rankings listed by the poll's responders, are not necessarily comparing "apples to apples".

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May 3rd, 2005, 7:43 am
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This one is hard...

1.) Roy Williams
2.) Andre Johnson
3.) Larry Fitzgerald
4.) Braylon Edwards
5.) Charles Rogers
6.) Mike Williams
7.) Troy Williamson
8.) Reggie Williams

I am a little wolverine and Detroit bias, but this rankings is not bias on my part at all...

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May 3rd, 2005, 4:25 pm
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Brian wrote:
4 Super Bowls isn't the result of one player, rather a great team that Swann was on.


N8Dog wrote:
How is that a misinterpretation? He was a member of the team and his membership on that team is a piece of his career.


It's a misinterpretation because too often players are overrated by the media and fans, because they were on a great team that made them better. Super Bowls aren't an individual accomplishment. Being on a super bowl team doesn't make you any better of a player than someone that isn't. It's like stating that Emmitt Smith was clearly better than Barry Sanders because he was on a Super Bowl team. You don't take that into consideration when comparing talent.

Brian wrote:
Being the Super Bowl MVP just means you played good for one game. Desmond Howard, Dexter Jackson, Deion Branch, and others are recent Super Bowl MVPs... but that doesn't make anyone think higher of them.


N8Dog wrote:
You're right again, in part. Super Bowl MVP means you played good for one game, which is why most would agree that the other individuals you mentioned probably will not have NFL careers easily remembered. After all, a Super Bowl MVP award is only one ingredient of a career. The last part of your statement is 100% wrong. Their accomplishent in the respectictive Super Bowl played in, doesn't make you think any higher of them. It does make many, as well as myself think higher of them.


Maybe it's just my opinion... but I don't think that because someone plays well in one game that they deserve to be praised moreso than others that have played well in their entire career.

Go back to the context of the argument. You used this as an example to defend Swann's accomplishments. When players like Dexter Jackson, Deion Branch, and Desmond Howard win the Super Bowl MVP award, it doesn't seem too glamorous of an accomplishment.

I don't think any higher of Deion Branch because he played well in the super bowl, nor do I believe that Dexter Jackson is a better safety. They just played well in one game.

Brian wrote:
3 Pro Bowls is usually achieved by any player that is above average... that's not a huge bragging stone.


N8Dog wrote:
Many players, every year, play above average without an invitation to the Pro Bowl. However, these accomplishments are, again, only ingredients making up a career.


That's great... but playing above average doesn't make you a "tremendous" NFL player. There are only a few players in the Pro Bowl who I believe are "tremendous" players...

Brian wrote:
During Swann's time, the passing game was far less complex, and less used by teams. Now his records are broken. And some of the records you listed aren't even worth noting. Highest punt return average in a game? Please
.

N8Dog wrote:
You're right again! Geez, you were on a roll in stating the obvious...

Those records are now broken, but they were held by him at one time. Holding them are, AGAIN, additions to a career.


Yes... he indeed held them... but I don't know how it's an accomplishment if your records aren't held anymore, and players like Plaxico Burress broke them. He doesn't hold them now, does he? I just don't see the logic in that argument.

Brian wrote:
Swann was indeed a great receiver. But he under my definition, he wasn't a "tremendous" player. Guys like Joe Montana are "tremendous". Swann currently doesn't hold any notable records in Pittsburgh. You can't be a tremendous player and not hold any records.


N8Dog wrote:
First, what is your definition? This whole discussion was started due to a lack of definition. Second, I agree, Joe Montana was a tremendous player and had a tremendous NFL career. Third, as I've stated, I'm comparing NFL careers in an attempt to decipher what is considered a good one. Although, by today's standards, Lynn Swann's numbers are average at best (which I've already stated and proved by comparing his to one of today's average receivers), his combined accomplishments do make for a "tremendous" NFL career. If having one's records broken discounts one's career, then why is doesn't a Hall of Fame induction only last until the accomplishments that were considered for induction, no longer elite when compared to numbers being put up by today's changing game?


To me, a tremendous player is someone who leaves a legacy. Someone who's name is written in record books, and won't be broken, unless someone great comes along. Swann wasn't even the best receiver on his team, that was Stallworth. Bradshaw was, IMO, the best player on his team, because of the intangibles he had as a quarterback, and the legacy that he left behind. Of course, there was also other great players on that team. But to be tremendous, you have to be one of the true elite players in the NFL. Someone who has records that are nearly untouchable. Someone with talent that is rarely seen. That wasn't in Swann. He wasn't even the best receiver on his team.


May 4th, 2005, 12:18 am
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I ll tell you two this much (just so everyones one the same page here N8 and Brian) You can beat me in a debate on shear commitment to the arguement.

first to N8, I will give him credit for an obvious ability to manipulate the english language in ways that would make politicians proud to go along with his pedantic nature. Though Id logically assume a simple posting and a simple question addressed to an intellectual einstein such as your self, would render a simple response associated to that question in a well thought out, organized, and chronilogical manner pertaining to said question, Im a bit overwhelmed at the lengths youve gone to not only cover up the fact that your wrong, but to try to convince your self that I am not right... :shock: get over it

second to Brian, N8 Brian is right, get over it :roll:


May 4th, 2005, 1:32 am
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Brian, rather than waste my time to copy and paste your response into a quoted format of my own response, I will just say this; read my posts and read yours. You are "talking" about players, I have been talking about careers. If you don't feel that Swann was a "tremendous" player, fine. I never said he was. I did, and do say that his was a tremendous career due to the accomplishments it was made up of. If you want to discount one's career due to a time in history that it was played, that is entirely your perogative.

Ferris, I haven't manipulated the english language, attempted to "cover up" the fact that I'm wrong, or convince myself that you are "not right". In fact, I'm not sure where the matter of being right or wrong even developed in any discussion with you. I suppose the only thing I need to "get over" is that you will not answer my original question; what constitutes a good or great NFL career?

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On another note...

Quote:
Though Id logically assume a simple posting and a simple question addressed to an intellectual einstein such as your self, would render a simple response associated to that question in a well thought out, organized, and chronilogical manner pertaining to said question


That made me laugh out loud. It sounds like something Swearengen would say to Bullock on "Deadwood". The only thing it's missing are some F-bombs and, maybe, bunt, spelled with a "c".

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May 4th, 2005, 6:08 am
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Fellas this is really unnecessary. Personal stuff only distracts from the arguments. We are just fans talking about football, and it is up to individual members to decide how and to what extent they argue an issue-hopefully in a classy way not belittling than others? It is really quite simple-if you think someone is wrong say why you believe this rather than classifying them in some way.

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May 4th, 2005, 6:26 am
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Yorick wrote:
Fellas this is really unnecessary. Personal stuff only distracts from the arguments. We are just fans talking about football, and it is up to individual members to decide how and to what extent they argue an issue-hopefully in a classy way not belittling than others? It is really quite simple-if you think someone is wrong say why you believe this rather than classifying them in some way.




...And I was just about to ask them to chose their seconds and see if they were going to use guns or knives...

new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif


May 4th, 2005, 6:43 am
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LionFan57 wrote:
...And I was just about to ask them to chose their seconds and see if they were going to use guns or knives...

new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif


C'mon Bob, use the big guns! There's some sweet emoticons, use 'em all...
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May 4th, 2005, 7:36 am
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N8Dog wrote:
If you want to discount one's career due to a time in history that it was played, that is entirely your perogative.


The thing is, though, i'm not discounting his career... i'm just defending my hypothesis that he isn't a tremendous player. I defended my statement, talking about who exactly qualifies as a "tremendous" player, and Swann fits that category. Usually, #2 receivers on a team full of talented players shouldn't make it into the HOF. I don't think he had a "tremendous" career. Just my opinion. I'm not discouting his career based on when he played, rather his talent, his numbers, and his misguided awards that he won.


May 4th, 2005, 10:49 pm
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N8Dog wrote:
Quote:
That made me laugh out loud. It sounds like something Swearengen would say to Bullock on "Deadwood". The only thing it's missing are some F-bombs and, maybe, bunt, spelled with a "c".


I dont know who Swearengen or Bullock are or what Deadwood is.... Id of thought it was clearly a Kevin Smith swipe.. Clerks or Mall Rats... You must be OLD..lmao :lol:


May 5th, 2005, 12:32 am
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In light of the fact that there is a difference between a player, a career, and a guy with good statistics, I've decided to update my list. I've divided the eight prospects into three different lists in order to honor the nuances of the important distinctions between these three categories:

Player
1. Charles Rogers
2. Roy Williams
3. Andre Johnson
4. Braylon Edwards
5. Larry Fitzgerald
6. Mike Williams
7. Troy Williamson
8. Reggie Williams

Career
1. Braylon Edwards
2. Roy Williams
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Mike Williams
6. Charles Rogers
7. Troy Williamson
8. Reggie Williams

Gusy with Good Statistics
1. Troy Williamson
2. Roy Williams
3. Braylon Edwards
4. Andre Johnson
5. Mike Williams
6. Charles Rogers
7. Larry Fitzgerald
8. Reggie Williams

Allow me to explain the differences in these lists. It mostly has to do with the outcome of Super Bowl XLIII, where your Detroit Lions face the deadly Cleveland Browns. With two minutes left in the game, Charlie Frye (he has been the Browns' starting QB ever since the Trent Dilfer moped accident of '06), the Browns are at the Lions' 10 yard line, down by three points. On fourth down, Charlie Frye rolls out and hits Lions CB Andre Goodman in the helmet. However, Braylon Edwards leaps from behind Andre Goodman and plucks the ball from in front of his face with a dazzling display of athleticism. Don Muhlbach (the Nolan Ryan of longsnappers), now with Cleveland, nails the snap and the extra point is good. Dan Orvlovsky spearheads a breathtaking drive to the Browns 10 with :01 left on the clock. He snaps the ball, drops back, and finds Roy Williams wide open in the end zone! He fires and... dropped! The ball hits Roy right in the numbers with no Browns even in the area code and he drops it, the Lions lose!

After the Super Bowl, coach Mariucci blames the "drops" on "accuracy." A picture of Roy Williams crouched down in despair in the corner of the end zone runs on the cover of every major sports magazine. Although Roy Williams would go on to set NFL receiving records, his career is forever marred by that one drop in the Super Bowl and the Lions don't see another Super Bowl while Williams is with the team. Meanwhile, Braylon Edwards puts up very good, but not exceptional numbers with the Browns, who go on to win five straight Super Bowls.

Charles Rogers, on the other hand, throughout his career will prove that he is the best player. His per game averages come out to 10 rec 210 yds 2 TDs. It becomes painfully obvious to any person watching Charles Rogers that when he is on the field, he makes a bigger impact than any wide receiver in NFL history. Unfortunately, he only averages 2.5 games per year, due to broken bones (collarbone, wrist bone, foot bone, funny bone) so he ends up having a very poor career and is not a guy with good statistics.

Troy Williamson lasts one season with the Minnesota Vikings, catching one pass for -7 yards. However, he soon lands in the CFL, where he breaks every CFL statistical record there is. While he's clearly not a very good player and does not have a great career relative to the other receivers, he becomes the ultimate guy with good statistics.

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May 5th, 2005, 2:24 am
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:lol: First rate.

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May 5th, 2005, 4:28 am
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Gotta love a Trent Dilfer moped acident. :lol: :wink:

BTW, why does no one mention Boldin in all of this? He he fallen off the radar again?

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May 5th, 2005, 8:00 am
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