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 "Dirty" play 
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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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Post Re: "Dirty" play
m2karateman wrote:
I.E. wrote:
Killwill25 wrote:
But as far as dialing it down...I guess when a team everyone called p**sy for 50 yeras, starts to finally dish it out it's tough to swallow. The Steelers have played the same way for almost 40 years but they've been so good for so long that it's just "Steeler football". But no, not these Honolulu Blue sisters of the poor who everyone has accepted as lovable losers.


OK - I see your point. But the key is still playing tough/quasidirty while playing well & winning. If you're losing while doing that, people don't see it the same way. They'll just trash the goodwill, point at the scoreboard & start saying "hate-able losers".


The Lions were getting called dirty in the pre-season, after Suh nearly tore the head off of Dalton. And for the record, I thought it was a ridiculously stupid play by Suh. However, Suh has been nailed with some personal fouls that were absolute garbage, but that's the price when you build a questionable reputation.

This isn't about the Lions being called a dirty team because of them losing or winning. The snowball has started rolling, and it won't stop until they can do something to take the eye off of that aspect of their play. Multiple personal fouls in each game isn't going to help. I like the fact that the Lions have become an aggressive team that isn't backing down or giving up. But I dislike the reputation they're getting, and in reality some of it is deserved.


100% agree. The hype about dirtiness is largely a product of media sensationalism. Certainly yes, there is evidence of play that can be interpreted as over-the-line but it isn't any different from what the Steelers and Ravens have been doing for nearly 15 years. The "dirty Lions" is just the story du jour.

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November 17th, 2011, 12:46 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
mwill2 wrote:
The hype about dirtiness is largely a product of media sensationalism. Certainly yes, there is evidence of play that can be interpreted as over-the-line but it isn't any different from what the Steelers and Ravens have been doing for nearly 15 years. The "dirty Lions" is just the story du jour.


I don't get it - first you say it is just media sensationalism ... and then you go on to say, "yeah - we're kinda dirty, but it is no different than (a few specific teams were in the past)". So there is something there that you're admitting to as being notable (not common, or the same as the current Bears), and you're saying it is OK because other teams have been like that in the past.

So again ... why not just admit, "yeah ... we're kinda dirty - so what?" Why keep trying to explain it away?

The way you're currently defending your position is like, "I never did that, and it is OK if I do it again".


November 17th, 2011, 1:24 pm
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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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Post Re: "Dirty" play
I didn't write that the reputation was completely undeserved. I wrote that the hype is LARGELY a product of sensationalism. That is, "blown out of proportion." I've repeatedly said that the Lions play very aggressively, right up the line of dirtiness and the line is occasionally crossed. I LIKE that. That doesn't mean that the media isn't blowing it out of proportion. When an everyday, run of the mill face mask penalty is being paraded around as an example of dirtiness, things have gotten out of hand. If a QB on any other team in the league made a play like Stafford did, nobody would be saying a word about it.

So yes, I like the aggressive play and think the "dirty" label has at least some merit. However, I think there are at least a dozen other teams in the league who are equally aggressive and there is virtually no scrutiny for them. In this regard, the hype is a product of sensationalism.

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November 17th, 2011, 2:03 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
mwill2 wrote:
I didn't write that the reputation was completely undeserved. I wrote that the hype is LARGELY a product of sensationalism. That is, "blown out of proportion." I've repeatedly said that the Lions play very aggressively, right up the line of dirtiness and the line is occasionally crossed. I LIKE that. That doesn't mean that the media isn't blowing it out of proportion. When an everyday, run of the mill face mask penalty is being paraded around as an example of dirtiness, things have gotten out of hand. If a QB on any other team in the league made a play like Stafford did, nobody would be saying a word about it.

So yes, I like the aggressive play and think the "dirty" label has at least some merit. However, I think there are at least a dozen other teams in the league who are equally aggressive and there is virtually no scrutiny for them. In this regard, the hype is a product of sensationalism.


So you're saying that the Lions are being aggressive, tough, and slightly dirty for a change, and though it isn't that uncommon people/media are simply noticing & commenting on it because it is such a change for the Lions.

That makse sense. I personally don't think that's what's really happening - but the point of view is understandable.


November 17th, 2011, 3:24 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
I don't know how many of you will remember this but just for conversations sake I'd like to add a little bit from my younger days.

Matt Millen(playing), Howie Long, George Atkinson(? the cat that broke Daryl Singelton in half) and others played for a team known for being the Meanest, Nastiest, Dirtiest team in history! They had a corner name Lester Hayse, that played with "stickum" from his fingers to his shoulders. He had class, he never hesitated to help an opponent up from the ground. As you can imagine that player had 50 lbs. of grass, water cups and a ball boy stuck to him for the rest of the game. Way to go Lester. The rest of the guys were accused of spitting, biting and low blows and that was on the bottom of the pile. Do you know the finnesse that it takes to hit or grab or punch a guy's package at the bottom of the pile without anybody noticing? Sly's SB party aside...lol.

These guys led forth what today is know as the "Raider Nation", they played in the black hole, they had a QB called the "Snake".

Yet I probably could not find enough people that remember and enjoyed this outside of a Raiders site. For Christ sakes they come to the game looking like something out of Road Warrior.

The Browns had the "Dawg Pound"
The Skins had the "Hogs"
The Niners had Romanowski, considered by most to be the dirtiest player ever.

All of these franchises have storied histories and more SB rings than I can put on all my fingers.

Eventually there will be more Lions fans than can be counted. Many of our guys are young and don't really know the ins and outs of the Pro level. You can't reel in that aggresivness or you may lose it alltogether. Other players and teams just don't how to deal with the former creampuffs that are on the scedule. The only recourse they hav is to tell the media and Comish's office. Eventually they will pay for complaining and not learning how to control it.


November 17th, 2011, 5:02 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
Boz wrote:
Do you know the finnesse that it takes to hit or grab or punch a guy's package at the bottom of the pile without anybody noticing? Sly's SB party aside...lol.


hahahahahahaha

:cheers:

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November 17th, 2011, 7:10 pm
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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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Post Re: "Dirty" play
I.E. wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I didn't write that the reputation was completely undeserved. I wrote that the hype is LARGELY a product of sensationalism. That is, "blown out of proportion." I've repeatedly said that the Lions play very aggressively, right up the line of dirtiness and the line is occasionally crossed. I LIKE that. That doesn't mean that the media isn't blowing it out of proportion. When an everyday, run of the mill face mask penalty is being paraded around as an example of dirtiness, things have gotten out of hand. If a QB on any other team in the league made a play like Stafford did, nobody would be saying a word about it.

So yes, I like the aggressive play and think the "dirty" label has at least some merit. However, I think there are at least a dozen other teams in the league who are equally aggressive and there is virtually no scrutiny for them. In this regard, the hype is a product of sensationalism.


So you're saying that the Lions are being aggressive, tough, and slightly dirty for a change, and though it isn't that uncommon people/media are simply noticing & commenting on it because it is such a change for the Lions.

That makse sense. I personally don't think that's what's really happening - but the point of view is understandable.


Basically, yes, that's the idea, although I think people are paying attention because the Lions started 5-0--not simply because the style of play is different. The style of play is basically the same as last year.

On a related note, Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller were talking about this very issue today, after their weekly interview with Jim Schwartz. An interesting point Kirwan raised: the Lions do not lead the league in penalties nor do the Lions lead the league in personal fouls. While there's no way to measure "dirtiness," I'd suggest that personal fouls are as close a measure as we'll get.

Given that other teams are more frequently penalized for personal fouls, there is some reasonably good evidence to show that other teams are more deserving of the "dirty play" scrutiny than the Lions. Not saying the Lions don't deserve it...just that other teams should be in the discussion too.

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Last edited by mwill2 on November 17th, 2011, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



November 17th, 2011, 7:34 pm
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Walk On

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Post Re: "Dirty" play
Boz wrote:
I don't know how many of you will remember this but just for conversations sake I'd like to add a little bit from my younger days.

Moron of the Millennium(playing), Howie Long, George Atkinson(? the cat that broke Daryl Singelton in half) and others played for a team known for being the Meanest, Nastiest, Dirtiest team in history! They had a corner name Lester Hayse, that played with "stickum" from his fingers to his shoulders. He had class, he never hesitated to help an opponent up from the ground. As you can imagine that player had 50 lbs. of grass, water cups and a ball boy stuck to him for the rest of the game. Way to go Lester. The rest of the guys were accused of spitting, biting and low blows and that was on the bottom of the pile. Do you know the finnesse that it takes to hit or grab or punch a guy's package at the bottom of the pile without anybody noticing? Sly's SB party aside...lol.

These guys led forth what today is know as the "Raider Nation", they played in the black hole, they had a QB called the "Snake".

Yet I probably could not find enough people that remember and enjoyed this outside of a Raiders site. For Christ sakes they come to the game looking like something out of Road Warrior.

The Browns had the "Dawg Pound"
The Skins had the "Hogs"
The Niners had Romanowski, considered by most to be the dirtiest player ever.

All of these franchises have storied histories and more SB rings than I can put on all my fingers.

Eventually there will be more Lions fans than can be counted. Many of our guys are young and don't really know the ins and outs of the Pro level. You can't reel in that aggresivness or you may lose it alltogether. Other players and teams just don't how to deal with the former creampuffs that are on the scedule. The only recourse they hav is to tell the media and Comish's office. Eventually they will pay for complaining and not learning how to control it.


Jack Tatum is who you're thinking about. And I remember watching them when I was young... I used to idolize Freddy Belitnikof with his stickum-drenched hands and his chain smoking on the sidelines... lol But that was then.

And, being a Bear fan, I can tell you that Dick Butkus did what Fairley did a thousand times back in the day. And Doug Plank was one of the meanest, hard-hitting, head-hunting safeties of all time. But that was then.

Back then, the stuff they did was legal - meaning by defniition it wasn't cheap. And now that kind of stuff is verboten (and considered dirty). When Mike Brown blew up Marcus Pollard a few years back, it was a legal play at the time. Now he probably would be suspended. Because it isn't "then" anymore - it is "now".

I can tell you this - I've known a few NFL players in my day, and nobody looks at another NFL team as a "creampuff" (well, except for this year's Colts... lol). In the '80''s it was Green Bay and Tampa Bay that were considred the easier wins in the NFCC... not the Lions.

So maybe it is a function of my age ... but to me it doesn't seem like the Lions have been down as long as it does for a lot of younger people around here. And having actually seen my team's QB and a potential dynasty get destroyed intentionalliy by a dirty '80's Dlineman (Charles Martin, on Jim McMahon), I think the game is better with some of the newer rules. It is still a brutal game.


November 17th, 2011, 7:34 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
I cannot believe how many comments are in favor of the garbage that has been going on from the Lions players on this thread. The Lions have NO POISE, NO DISCIPLINE, and NO CLASS. Very soon, they are also going to have NO PLAYOFFS as the result of the absolute lack of discipline that has cost them several points, and possibly wins.

The fact is, you can play mean, physical football, without getting up after every play and starting garbage. As they say, you play between the whistles.

Last night, against the Saints, the penalties were 10-2. They were at the five, ready to make it a game, when Titus Young took a ridiculous penalty for a stupid punch he threw RIGHT in front of the ref. Pettigrew practically knocked a ref over.
There is no way you can convince me that that is winning football, no matter how much you compare this team to the "Bad boys". Let's get it straight, they aren't good enough to be the Bad Boys. The Bad Boys were winning for a long time before they took on that role, and they took it on mainly to intimidate MJ. The Lions are a bunch of immature players who have real potential to turn this franchise around for a very long time and are blowing that opportunity with their stupidity. They need to get over the idea that they are somehow going to intimidate teams into losing. This is the NFL, you win by performing.

Personally, I put the blame on Schwartz, and if he can't reel these guys in to get them to play physical aggressive football without embarrassing themselves and the fans and city of Detroit, then he needs to go.
For the first time in a looooong time this team has real, legitimate talent to win, and they're wasting the opportunity with this garbage.

Play mean. Play physical. Play smart. Avoid penalties and mistakes.
It's that simple.


December 5th, 2011, 8:29 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
jcmessing wrote:
I cannot believe how many comments are in favor of the garbage that has been going on from the Lions players on this thread. The Lions have NO POISE, NO DISCIPLINE, and NO CLASS. Very soon, they are also going to have NO PLAYOFFS as the result of the absolute lack of discipline that has cost them several points, and possibly wins.

The fact is, you can play mean, physical football, without getting up after every play and starting garbage. As they say, you play between the whistles.

Last night, against the Saints, the penalties were 10-2. They were at the five, ready to make it a game, when Titus Young took a ridiculous penalty for a stupid punch he threw RIGHT in front of the ref. Pettigrew practically knocked a ref over.
There is no way you can convince me that that is winning football, no matter how much you compare this team to the "Bad boys". Let's get it straight, they aren't good enough to be the Bad Boys. The Bad Boys were winning for a long time before they took on that role, and they took it on mainly to intimidate MJ. The Lions are a bunch of immature players who have real potential to turn this franchise around for a very long time and are blowing that opportunity with their stupidity. They need to get over the idea that they are somehow going to intimidate teams into losing. This is the NFL, you win by performing.

Personally, I put the blame on Schwartz, and if he can't reel these guys in to get them to play physical aggressive football without embarrassing themselves and the fans and city of Detroit, then he needs to go.
For the first time in a looooong time this team has real, legitimate talent to win, and they're wasting the opportunity with this garbage.

Play mean. Play physical. Play smart. Avoid penalties and mistakes.
It's that simple.

No one on here has praised or supported what happened in the Saints game. This is the most "after the fact" useless post. If you are a Bears fan, I hope you guys lose out

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December 5th, 2011, 8:34 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
Not a Bears fan in any way, been a Lions fan my whole life. Who poses as a Lions fan? You're right that I didn't realize how old the thread was, and haven't been on the forum much lately. However, reading through other threads, there's a good deal of dismissal of the Lions behavior as acceptable, and I am so disappointed with their play that I stand by all of my statements, including my criticism of those who feel that the new attitude is all part of building a winning franchise.


December 5th, 2011, 9:00 pm
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Post Re: "Dirty" play
jcmessing wrote:
Not a Bears fan in any way, been a Lions fan my whole life. Who poses as a Lions fan? You're right that I didn't realize how old the thread was, and haven't been on the forum much lately. However, reading through other threads, there's a good deal of dismissal of the Lions behavior as acceptable, and I am so disappointed with their play that I stand by all of my statements, including my criticism of those who feel that the new attitude is all part of building a winning franchise.

in that case, I apologize and welcome back. And there was some dismissal of the behavior but after what happened last night, I don't think you'll see much more praise for that kind of thing. I hope you stick around to show your support on the forums. And BTW, there are people that come here posing as lion's fans so they can rip on us. There is a poster(GeorgeChuvalo) who is clearly a Packer bandwagoner who has been and still is posting as a Lions fan

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December 5th, 2011, 9:53 pm
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