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 Lions start to struggle this is the reason 
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
All of those rushing stats are interesting. But my question is this....can the Lions get a yard or two, WHEN THEY NEED IT, by rushing the ball? My answer is no, more often than not they don't, or can't.

But, I think much of this goes back to scheme and playcalling. I'm sorry, but last season when we were getting Mo Morris to rush for 100 yards or more, there was far more imagination in the running game. We weren't running these stupid zone reads, stretch plays, etc. where the back has to try to read and react. They were doing more powers, traps and misdirection plays, just like opposing offenses are doing on us.

We also had Stefan Logan in the backfield from time to time, and that seemed to confuse the defenses. I think that's something that the Lions need to start thinking about. Logan is the closest thing to Best we have on the roster right now. Using him to line up in the slot, then move to the backfield...or vice versa..can create some confusion, or create personnel matchup issues iwth the defense.

I see other teams able to run successfully, though their offensive lines are hurt, struggling or both. They start rookies taken in the late rounds, and they are getting it done. They have running backs who aren't All World talents, and they are getting it done. Based on that, I blame the scheme and the playcalling here in Detroit. It's not simply just a fact of the offensive line not doing their job.

The same goes with all these people saying the offensive line is giving up more pressure now than in the beginning of the season. No, they aren't. Stafford isn't focusing downfield like he was in the beginning of the season. He is suddenly hesitant, staring down receivers, and missing with his throws. He is feeling pressure that isn't there. He was hit less in the first five games because he was getting rid of the ball faster based on his keeping his eyes downfield. He's getting hit more now because he isn't delivering the ball like he was. Stafford has not played in the last two games like he did in the first five. If you can't see that, then you aren't watching the games. Watching him against San Francisco and Atlanta was like watching him in the first half of the Dallas game. And in the second half of that game, he played lights out with MORE pressure on him than in the first half.

So please, stop with the offensive line being the source of all evil with this team. I want improvements there as much as anybody, but it's not going to happen. Stafford's issues the past two games are his and his alone to deal with. However, the running game issues is about scheme and playcalling. The Lions get a chunk play on the ground now and again, but the fact is they aren't able to sustain drives via the running game and they can't pick up critical third and shorts with it. THAT IS A PROBLEM.

So many factually incorrect statements. Where to begin...

I don't have access to the stats, but I remember the announcers during the Monday night game showing that the Lions were getting the key yards when they needed it. I don't think those stats are available to the public, but I'll look later.

As for Logan in the backfield, that is happening. I've seen it in every game. Not sure what you're watching, but they are bringing him back there for a few plays each game.

You say that you see other teams running successfully with bad or banged up offensive lines, yet you don't mention one. Which teams would those be exactly? And would those teams happen to have a stud RB making those runs? The one team that comes to mind for me is the Bears, and Forte is one of the best in the NFL. Other than that, which team has a bad line and still runs effectively?

Regarding the line giving up more pressure, yes it is. I don't recall exactly which thread, but someone posted the actual numbers on QB pressures, hits, etc., and there have been far more in the past 2 weeks than there were earlier in the season. So, you're flat out wrong about this.

Well said.

These are the numbers (they were actually posted in this thread :D)

first 5 games: 1.2 sacks/gm and 4.6 hits/gm
last 2 games: 4 sacks/gm and 7.5 hits/gm

as to m2k, like I had said previously, you are treating the symptoms and not the cause. The cause of our bad play is our offensive line. The symptoms are a tentative QB and "bad playcalling" (although it is really our coaches failure to adjust to our horrible OL that is the problem). To be fair though, the coaches can only do so much. At the end of the day, we aren't executing, and regardless of who you want to pinpoint for lack of execution, the OL is the cause.

And to your point on the Dallas game- Stafford was not playing lights out in the 2nd half. Don't forget we had two defensive touchdowns and a triple covered jump ball (which was a horrible decision, regardless of the outcome) to come back.

Take off the shades, bro. You're only as strong as your weakest link.

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October 25th, 2011, 1:40 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
mwill - but is that cause or effect? Does time of possession lead to wins or do wins lead to good TOP? If it's the latter, increasing our TOP isn't going to help at all.

I agree with you somewhat on YPC - a boom and bust rush offense may well produce decent YPC but it isn't going to sustain drives.

Stats are never the whole story.


October 25th, 2011, 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
UK Lion wrote:
mwill - but is that cause or effect? Does time of possession lead to wins or do wins lead to good TOP? If it's the latter, increasing our TOP isn't going to help at all.

I agree with you somewhat on YPC - a boom and bust rush offense may well produce decent YPC but it isn't going to sustain drives.

Stats are never the whole story.


The short answer is "I don't know" but I don't think it is a matter of causality. I'm just pointing out an apparent correlation. In fact, in the SF game, the Lions actually had a 42-second advantage in time of possession but still lost the game. In that particular game, I'd guess that the Lions had the TOP advantage because their average drive started at their own 26 yd line while the average SF drive started at their own 36. The Lions needed to travel further in order to score, so that circumstance could easily give them the TOP advantage--but it certainly didn't help them win. Needing a longer drive means more time off the clock but also means more opportunities to make mistakes as the drive progresses.

In this regard, I don't think one can argue that winning the time of possession battle will necessarily result in wins. But over the first seven weeks of the season, there appears to be some relationship between TOP and winning. I'm no statistician so I'm sure someone smarter than me can poke holes in the entire line of reasoning. :lol:

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October 25th, 2011, 4:14 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
mwill2 wrote:
UK Lion wrote:
mwill - but is that cause or effect? Does time of possession lead to wins or do wins lead to good TOP? If it's the latter, increasing our TOP isn't going to help at all.

I agree with you somewhat on YPC - a boom and bust rush offense may well produce decent YPC but it isn't going to sustain drives.

Stats are never the whole story.


The short answer is "I don't know" but I don't think it is a matter of causality. I'm just pointing out an apparent correlation. In fact, in the SF game, the Lions actually had a 42-second advantage in time of possession but still lost the game. In that particular game, I'd guess that the Lions had the TOP advantage because their average drive started at their own 26 yd line while the average SF drive started at their own 36. The Lions needed to travel further in order to score, so that circumstance could easily give them the TOP advantage--but it certainly didn't help them win. Needing a longer drive means more time off the clock but also means more opportunities to make mistakes as the drive progresses.

In this regard, I don't think one can argue that winning the time of possession battle will necessarily result in wins. But over the first seven weeks of the season, there appears to be some relationship between TOP and winning. I'm no statistician so I'm sure someone smarter than me can poke holes in the entire line of reasoning. :lol:

I'm not a statistician, but I know some stats. If I have time, I may try to pull data a run a regression to see what each variable shows. That would also show us correlations, and hopefully I could put the whole thing together and try to paint a full picture of what stats are good predictors of winning & losing.

I likely won't get to this for a while, but it'll be in the back of my mind and I'll try to get to it eventually.

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October 25th, 2011, 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
I understand the panic but I just came to say that I am enjoying the hell out of this season.

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October 25th, 2011, 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
So many factually incorrect statements. Where to begin...

I don't have access to the stats, but I remember the announcers during the Monday night game showing that the Lions were getting the key yards when they needed it. I don't think those stats are available to the public, but I'll look later.


So, first, you are telling me that during the Monday Night game, this statement was made. When the Lions were about to go 5-0.

Aren't we talking about the Lions struggles in here? I thought we were...

Also, saying that they are getting the key yards when they need them is great. Do you believe every announcer and the statements they make? How are they going about getting those key yards? Via the air or on the ground? The Lions are currently 11th in passing in terms of YPG. They rank 27th in that category in regards to rushing. They get first downs on 33% of their passes. That's good for 18th overall in the NFL. The get first downs on 18.2% of their runs. That's good for 28th overall in the NFL.

So...NOW do you think the Lions are getting their "key yards" on the ground?

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
As for Logan in the backfield, that is happening. I've seen it in every game. Not sure what you're watching, but they are bringing him back there for a few plays each game.


Great...he's in the backfield. How many catches does he have this season? Runs? ZERO catches, and three rushes for the season. That's not too much of a threat. If they want teams to respect his presence, they gotta get him the football. Last season they were. This season? Not so much yet.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
You say that you see other teams running successfully with bad or banged up offensive lines, yet you don't mention one. Which teams would those be exactly? And would those teams happen to have a stud RB making those runs? The one team that comes to mind for me is the Bears, and Forte is one of the best in the NFL. Other than that, which team has a bad line and still runs effectively?


Pittsburgh? Dallas? Philadelphia? Buffalo?

All of them have either players hurt, are starting rookies, or have players considered to be no better than average on their offensive lines. None of them have what I consider to be a "stud" running back. Yet all those teams are running much better than the Lions.

What about Kansas City? They LOST THEIR STUD RB, and are now rushing better. And it's not like they are using their offensive line of four or five years ago and brought back Priest Holmes from a cryogenic nap.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Regarding the line giving up more pressure, yes it is. I don't recall exactly which thread, but someone posted the actual numbers on QB pressures, hits, etc., and there have been far more in the past 2 weeks than there were earlier in the season. So, you're flat out wrong about this.


Pressure is a subjective statistic. Is it ACTUALLY caused by the line allowing pressure in a quicker time frame, or is it actually caused by the quarterback holding the ball longer and allowing the DL to get to him? I've watched the games TDJ, and the fact is that Stafford is not looking downfield in these past two games like he was in the first five games. He's running when he doesn't have to, he's missing open receivers, he's staring down receivers. These are things he wasn't doing in the first five games. When he's in the shotgun, he still takes a three or four step drop. That doesn't help him, it hurts him and gives the DEs an easier job of getting to him because now the tackles have to try and hold their blocks longer, or take them further outside to carry them beyond where Matt is standing.

I can put a QB behind a terrible line, and if he gets the ball out quickly enough he'll rarely be pressured. I can put a QB behind a great offensive line, and if he holds the ball long enough, they'll get to him every time.

QB pressures aren't always the fault of the offensive line. Sacks aren't always the fault of the offensive line. This is why gauging things purely on statistics is misleading.

I watch the games. The Lions dont run for many first downs, even in short yardage situations. Matt Stafford hasn't been the same in these last two games as he was in the first five.

If you can't see any of that...I just can't help you.

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October 25th, 2011, 5:07 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
m2karateman wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
So many factually incorrect statements. Where to begin...

I don't have access to the stats, but I remember the announcers during the Monday night game showing that the Lions were getting the key yards when they needed it. I don't think those stats are available to the public, but I'll look later.


So, first, you are telling me that during the Monday Night game, this statement was made. When the Lions were about to go 5-0.

Aren't we talking about the Lions struggles in here? I thought we were...

Also, saying that they are getting the key yards when they need them is great. Do you believe every announcer and the statements they make? How are they going about getting those key yards? Via the air or on the ground? The Lions are currently 11th in passing in terms of YPG. They rank 27th in that category in regards to rushing. They get first downs on 33% of their passes. That's good for 18th overall in the NFL. The get first downs on 18.2% of their runs. That's good for 28th overall in the NFL.

So...NOW do you think the Lions are getting their "key yards" on the ground?

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
As for Logan in the backfield, that is happening. I've seen it in every game. Not sure what you're watching, but they are bringing him back there for a few plays each game.


Great...he's in the backfield. How many catches does he have this season? Runs? ZERO catches, and three rushes for the season. That's not too much of a threat. If they want teams to respect his presence, they gotta get him the football. Last season they were. This season? Not so much yet.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
You say that you see other teams running successfully with bad or banged up offensive lines, yet you don't mention one. Which teams would those be exactly? And would those teams happen to have a stud RB making those runs? The one team that comes to mind for me is the Bears, and Forte is one of the best in the NFL. Other than that, which team has a bad line and still runs effectively?


Pittsburgh? Dallas? Philadelphia? Buffalo?

All of them have either players hurt, are starting rookies, or have players considered to be no better than average on their offensive lines. None of them have what I consider to be a "stud" running back. Yet all those teams are running much better than the Lions.

What about Kansas City? They LOST THEIR STUD RB, and are now rushing better. And it's not like they are using their offensive line of four or five years ago and brought back Priest Holmes from a cryogenic nap.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Regarding the line giving up more pressure, yes it is. I don't recall exactly which thread, but someone posted the actual numbers on QB pressures, hits, etc., and there have been far more in the past 2 weeks than there were earlier in the season. So, you're flat out wrong about this.


Pressure is a subjective statistic. Is it ACTUALLY caused by the line allowing pressure in a quicker time frame, or is it actually caused by the quarterback holding the ball longer and allowing the DL to get to him? I've watched the games TDJ, and the fact is that Stafford is not looking downfield in these past two games like he was in the first five games. He's running when he doesn't have to, he's missing open receivers, he's staring down receivers. These are things he wasn't doing in the first five games. When he's in the shotgun, he still takes a three or four step drop. That doesn't help him, it hurts him and gives the DEs an easier job of getting to him because now the tackles have to try and hold their blocks longer, or take them further outside to carry them beyond where Matt is standing.

I can put a QB behind a terrible line, and if he gets the ball out quickly enough he'll rarely be pressured. I can put a QB behind a great offensive line, and if he holds the ball long enough, they'll get to him every time.

QB pressures aren't always the fault of the offensive line. Sacks aren't always the fault of the offensive line. This is why gauging things purely on statistics is misleading.

I watch the games. The Lions dont run for many first downs, even in short yardage situations. Matt Stafford hasn't been the same in these last two games as he was in the first five.

If you can't see any of that...I just can't help you.

Why do you always split up the convo and respond to every single paragraph? I know I used to do it to, but c'mon man.... all it does is make it personal and add clutter to the forum. Lets keep the discussion about football and not make it into a personal "I have to be right" argument

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October 25th, 2011, 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
I wasn't aware that commenting on certain topics by a posting within 1 thread was making it personal.. :roll:

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October 25th, 2011, 7:28 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
conversion02 wrote:
I wasn't aware that commenting on certain topics by a posting within 1 thread was making it personal.. :roll:

I mean, I wanted to respond, but when you start breaking up each paragraph it's essentially each a different argument which is very irritating to respond to. It makes the discussion between two people, and is a tactic generally used to simply be "right" rather than have a healthy football discussion. I am not having "mod tryouts" or anything, it's just very irritating to read. Not to mention you have to read each individual quoted paragraph to see exactly what he's responding to!

Essentially, since I am not invested in the conversation, I am not going to bother responding because it takes too much time and effort

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October 25th, 2011, 7:59 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
thegodjr wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
I wasn't aware that commenting on certain topics by a posting within 1 thread was making it personal.. :roll:

I mean, I wanted to respond, but when you start breaking up each paragraph it's essentially each a different argument which is very irritating to respond to. It makes the discussion between two people, and is a tactic generally used to simply be "right" rather than have a healthy football discussion. I am not having "mod tryouts" or anything, it's just very irritating to read. Not to mention you have to read each individual quoted paragraph to see exactly what he's responding to!

Essentially, since I am not invested in the conversation, I am not going to bother responding because it takes too much time and effort


No, it's a tactic used so that each different subject can be addressed individually. It may all be about football, but they are all very different ideas. I find it MUCH, MUCH easier to figure out exactly what a person means when they answer to each idea separately, rather than spewing it all into one big lump of crap paragraph, which is much harder to follow. It's not a matter of trying to be right, because I am answering on the premise that I feel I am right.

To each their own. Sorry if you don't like it, but that doesn't make YOU right.

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October 25th, 2011, 9:48 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
m2karateman wrote:
thegodjr wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
I wasn't aware that commenting on certain topics by a posting within 1 thread was making it personal.. :roll:

I mean, I wanted to respond, but when you start breaking up each paragraph it's essentially each a different argument which is very irritating to respond to. It makes the discussion between two people, and is a tactic generally used to simply be "right" rather than have a healthy football discussion. I am not having "mod tryouts" or anything, it's just very irritating to read. Not to mention you have to read each individual quoted paragraph to see exactly what he's responding to!

Essentially, since I am not invested in the conversation, I am not going to bother responding because it takes too much time and effort


No, it's a tactic used so that each different subject can be addressed individually. It may all be about football, but they are all very different ideas. I find it MUCH, MUCH easier to figure out exactly what a person means when they answer to each idea separately, rather than spewing it all into one big lump of crap paragraph, which is much harder to follow. It's not a matter of trying to be right, because I am answering on the premise that I feel I am right.

To each their own. Sorry if you don't like it, but that doesn't make YOU right.

You either :wink:

We can argue back and forth all day about what the "tactic" does, but the proof is in the pudding. Look at some of the posts from last season between me and you, and you will see threads filled with garbage personal arguments that others don't have much chance to give an opinion on (just like I wanted to give an opinion to your post, but was put off).

I mean, do what you want man, but many threads have been derailed because of it

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Receiving: 287 Yards : 10.6 YPR : 1 TD : 47.8 YPG
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October 25th, 2011, 11:52 pm
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
thegodjr wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
thegodjr wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
I wasn't aware that commenting on certain topics by a posting within 1 thread was making it personal.. :roll:

I mean, I wanted to respond, but when you start breaking up each paragraph it's essentially each a different argument which is very irritating to respond to. It makes the discussion between two people, and is a tactic generally used to simply be "right" rather than have a healthy football discussion. I am not having "mod tryouts" or anything, it's just very irritating to read. Not to mention you have to read each individual quoted paragraph to see exactly what he's responding to!

Essentially, since I am not invested in the conversation, I am not going to bother responding because it takes too much time and effort


No, it's a tactic used so that each different subject can be addressed individually. It may all be about football, but they are all very different ideas. I find it MUCH, MUCH easier to figure out exactly what a person means when they answer to each idea separately, rather than spewing it all into one big lump of crap paragraph, which is much harder to follow. It's not a matter of trying to be right, because I am answering on the premise that I feel I am right.

To each their own. Sorry if you don't like it, but that doesn't make YOU right.

You either :wink:

We can argue back and forth all day about what the "tactic" does, but the proof is in the pudding. Look at some of the posts from last season between me and you, and you will see threads filled with garbage personal arguments that others don't have much chance to give an opinion on (just like I wanted to give an opinion to your post, but was put off).

I mean, do what you want man, but many threads have been derailed because of it

Speaking of derailed threads............. :wink:

That said, I agree with m2k, I like seeing everything broken out. JMHO
/threadjack

Let's get back on topic, mmmkay
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October 26th, 2011, 12:06 am
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
What i find shocking is that we're freaking out when we've lost 2 games, by 6 and 7 points. We've looked like utter crap at times and one drive could have changed the outcome in either game. I guess that's what comes with progress.


October 26th, 2011, 1:33 am
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
njroar wrote:
What i find shocking is that we're freaking out when we've lost 2 games, by 6 and 7 points. We've looked like utter crap at times and one drive could have changed the outcome in either game. I guess that's what comes with progress.


True, but I believe some are afraid of a collapse like we saw a few years back when we started 6-2. Granted, if you ask me we had no business having that record with the squad we had... which it showed the last 8 games of the season.

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October 26th, 2011, 8:14 am
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Post Re: Lions start to struggle this is the reason
njroar wrote:
What i find shocking is that we're freaking out when we've lost 2 games, by 6 and 7 points. We've looked like utter crap at times and one drive could have changed the outcome in either game. I guess that's what comes with progress.


What bothers me about the two games in question is that the team regressed in both games. They played poorly against San Fran, and then went out and performed worse against Atlanta.

We've all stated that in order for this team to succeed Matt Stafford has to stay healthy. There is no denying that. However, right now I think he's not healthy from a psychological point of view. He's not the same QB that he was against Tampa Bay, or even Chicago. I don't know what happened between the Chicago and San Francisco game, but something got into his head.

The other thing that concerns me is that our schedule is getting more difficult. Carolina and Oakland aren't the pushovers that was anticipated at the beginning of the season. Green Bay has simply been unbeatable, and at this rate the Lions are looking like they'll get another beatdown on Turkey Day, much like last season against the Pats.

This is not panic, it's a realistic look at things based upon their last two games. The team just hasn't looked that good, Stafford being the most noteable.

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October 26th, 2011, 9:37 am
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