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 The Paper War - Lions and the Colts (Repost) 
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Post The Paper War - Lions and the Colts (Repost)
After some deep reflection, I have come to the conclusion that everytime I hear a comparison to the Colts offense.
I don't like it.

Now, here is where you expect a rant about how Lions fans are drinking too much Kool-Aid, right?

No,
you can call me Jim Jones, and the Lionbacker.com is Jonestown. I am not just drinking the Kool-Aid, I am mixing it, personally.

The Colts have two distinct advantages over the Lions, that is at Quarterback, and Marvin Harrison. Both these players are NFL 1st ballot Hall of Famers.

Offensive Line

Lions
(Bulter/Koiser) Woody, Raiola, Demulling, Backus.

Vs Colts
Diem, Ilija, Saturday, Iorio, Glenn


The Lions have a solid starter at G,G,C,LT
The Colts have a solid starter at RT,C,LT
The Lions have a question mark at RT about Butler
The Colts have one with Ilija and Iorio at both guard spots.

The Colts have no depth
The Lions have depth across the board and flexability with all poistions on the line except for Left Tackle, which is rare to have.

We have a very good line, and our guard combo is the best in the NFL after the Chiefs Waters Willis, and is comparable to the 2004 Packers.
The Colts have one of the better Tackle Combos. This isn't a push though, the Lions have an edge on the Oline even before you look at the depth factor, and afterwards there is no question.

Advantage - Lions.


Tight Ends
Pollard , Fitzsimmons - Detroit
Clark, Harstock - Indy

Pollard and Clark are pretty much on even ground now, Clark played in the roll Pollard did in 2003, and Pollard got the roll of Clark in 2004. It was numbers game in the age. But as time goes on, the advantage will go to the Colts. Fitz is the more talented of the two, and right now is the much better player. If it were a push between Harstock and Fitz, I would give this one to the Colts. But right now, I am going to give it to the Lions until father time starts to catch up with Pollard. Pollard was on the colts when it was just Marv and Peyton getting it done. Clark has been playing in an age of 3 wide plus pollard. Pollard gets the edge because he's more proven.

Advantage Lions.

Running Back

Colts , Edge, Rhodes, Mungro, Carthon
Lions, Jones, Bryson, Pinner , White

Between Jones and Edge, I am going with Jones, he is runing on fresh knees, and displayed top 5 talent for the last half of 2004. The evaluation of a runningback is one of the easiest to do in the NFL. Kevin Jones ranks near the top already. Edge was very good last year, but he isn't as good of a running back as KJ is. Edge is more of a weapon in the passing game, but not enough for me to take him over KJ. This one is close, but KJ to me is the best combination of power speed and agility in the NFL right now.
Rhodes over Bryson, Rhodes can handle the rock as a feature back, Bryson is not good in the starting role, but is one of the best 3rd down backs in the NFL. Mungro and Pinner both ...suck. So, thats a toss up. White Carthon goes to White, no matter how bad Cowardly thinks he is. The Colts have good depth, but not amazing depth. The Lions also have good depth, but not as good as the colts. In the Colts offense, they don't really feature a true FB. While the Lions have one of the top 5 guys in the league, this allows us to go to a pure run it down your throat running game whenever we want too, and we don't need to use the pass to set it up.

Advantage - Detroit Lions.

Wide Receiver

- Colts, Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Moorehead, Walters, Pyatt

- Lions, Williams, Rogers, Williams, Johnson, Drummond, Vines, Kircus

What we have here, is a close battle.

Harrison, Legend, Hall of Fame lock, in my opinion, the best route runner ever. Williams, 2nd year, the most talented WR that came out of the WR heavy 2004 draft. This goes to Harrison obviously. But Williams is pretty much a different kind of WR anyway, he has the potential to be on the same level as a Terrell Owens, this isn't just wishful thinking, it's very likely.

Wayne vs Rogers , If Charles Rogers plays in 2004, I probally end up giving this to him. But he didn't, so I give it to Wanye. I like Wayne, he is a solid WR in the , Hey, I am Brett Periman playing opposite a legend Role. Broke out last season for 1200 yards and 12 Td's but never really was as big of a threat as his numbers make you think. If I had to pick from Chuck and Wayne in a draft, I am taking Chuck each time, Rogers has all kinds of talent, speed and size that Wanye doesn't have. But you can't dimiss production .
Stokely vs Williams. Monster year, but unless Mike Williams is a bust on Ryan Leaf levels, there is no way I am giving this to Brandon Stokley.

Moorehead vs Johnson, Moorehead had one of the best preseason catches ever. But that's his entire career. Johnson has been good in the NFL, while he wasn't impressive for the Ravens, he is still better than anything Moorehead has been or will ever be.

Drummond Walters- neither have much effect in the passing games. But Drummond is 2nd best kick returner in the NFL. And Dante Hall better watch his back.

Pyatt Vines, Vines believe it or not, did more in the NFL.

Kircus vs Nobody - I give the Edge to the Colts for saving money.

Final Verdict

Advantage Colts. Their top 2 are better than Rogers and Williams, but not by alot. If Mike Williams manges to play to even 70% of what our draft position expectations are. The Lions will have a huge advantage.

Quarterback

Lions - Jeff Garcia , Joey Harrington

Colts - Peyton Manning , Jim Sorgi

Peyton Manning vs Joey Harrington, Well, both QB's are very smart, and pretty much film rats. Peyton executes this better on the field, and that is what sets him above anyone else.
Physically, they are very similar, they both have pretty much the same zip on the ball. Peyton is a little bigger and wider. And Joey is a little leaner and mobile. They each have similar flaws. That weird shuffling footwork, and very poor accuracy when they can't step into throws. Peyton is more accurate (well duh Bubbles) He is more accurate all over the field. Joey has good accuracy, but needs work putting touch on his crossing routes and placement on the deep balls (and he'll have alot of fun practicing that this year).
In the mental aspects, Joey is average to above average at reading coverage , Peyton Manning is the bar. This is obviously going to Peyton. Jeff Garcia vs Jim Sorgi. I saw Jim Sorgi in relief duty, he did pretty good. But, he is afterall, a nobody backup and Garcia is a former probowler.

Advantage, Colts over every other team in the NFL, maybe even for decades.
Joey can be a very good QB in this league when he gets in the "zone" Peyton doesn't get into that zone, he is that zone. Easy choice here, Kudos for depth on the Lions.

So how do we score it?

Oline- Lions
Running Back- Lions
Tight End - Lions
Wide Receiver- Colts
Quarterback - Colts

Because of the wide margin between QB's, I am calling it a push. On paper, with an edge to the Colts because of experience.

Now does this mean I expect us to score 32.6 points per game?
No I don't, I don't even expect the Colts to do that this year.
probally will be closer to 28-30

And I expect the Lions to be in the 25-27 range.
Which would be a moster improvement and put us in the top 10, maybe even top 5.

*The Following Thread was done while drinking Bacardi White Rum, mixed with my Jonestown Kool-Aid*

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May 12th, 2005, 11:30 am
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Post Re: The Paper War - Lions and the Colts (Repost)
BubblesTheLion wrote:
*The Following Thread was done while drinking Bacardi White Rum, mixed with my Jonestown Kool-Aid*


Bubbles - very funny. I'm certainly not ready to compare the Lions young offense to the record setting Colts version just yet. Glad you were though. I do think we are somewhat close to the Colts, however, on the defensive side of the ball. :lol:

OK, I gotta slam a few shots and reread your post... :retard:

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May 12th, 2005, 11:50 am
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Quote:
OK, I gotta slam a few shots and reread your post...


I suggest you don't mix in the Kool-aid, or it will be the last thing you read.

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May 12th, 2005, 11:56 am
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Hmmmm. Interesting debate. I agree w/ alot of your assesments. Obviously the biggest gap in talent is at the QB position. That goes w/o saying. Although I disagree w/ your assesment of Joey's accuracy. I have seen Joey throw underthrow, throw behind, and completely overthrow open receivers in everyone of his 1st 3 seasons. That is what makes Peyton so great is the touch and accuracy of his passes and I just don't see any of that w/ Joey. With that being said, I have also seen Joey in his "zone" where he hits receivers in stride and has a beautiful touch on his deep ball. Unfortanately, we just don't see that enough. Hopefully, this will be the year he puts it together.

I also love the potential of our WR's, but potential is all that is until they put together a whole season of work. When I watch Manning and Harrison, it is beautiful to see how well they know each other on the field. I can see Roy and Joey reacing that potential in a few years if everything works out.

Well, lets hope that your 25-27 points per game prediction comes true because i see us being very competitive and possibly winning the division w/ that kind of production. Looking forward to a big year!

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May 12th, 2005, 12:30 pm
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Unfortunately the gap between QBs counts most. If Peyton was with our offense and Harrington was with theirs-now that would be a killer hypothetical!

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May 12th, 2005, 1:22 pm
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Post Re: The Paper War - Lions and the Colts (Repost)
BubblesTheLion wrote:
Tight Ends
Pollard , Fitzsimmons - Detroit
Clark, Harstock - Indy

Pollard and Clark are pretty much on even ground now, Clark played in the roll Pollard did in 2003, and Pollard got the roll of Clark in 2004. It was numbers game in the age. But as time goes on, the advantage will go to the Colts. Fitz is the more talented of the two, and right now is the much better player. If it were a push between Harstock and Fitz, I would give this one to the Colts. But right now, I am going to give it to the Lions until father time starts to catch up with Pollard. Pollard was on the colts when it was just Marv and Peyton getting it done. Clark has been playing in an age of 3 wide plus pollard. Pollard gets the edge because he's more proven.

Advantage Lions.

Wide Receiver

- Colts, Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Moorehead, Walters, Pyatt

- Lions, Williams, Rogers, Williams, Johnson, Drummond, Vines, Kircus

What we have here, is a close battle.

Harrison, Legend, Hall of Fame lock, in my opinion, the best route runner ever. Williams, 2nd year, the most talented WR that came out of the WR heavy 2004 draft. This goes to Harrison obviously. But Williams is pretty much a different kind of WR anyway, he has the potential to be on the same level as a Terrell Owens, this isn't just wishful thinking, it's very likely.

Wayne vs Rogers , If Charles Rogers plays in 2004, I probally end up giving this to him. But he didn't, so I give it to Wanye. I like Wayne, he is a solid WR in the , Hey, I am Brett Periman playing opposite a legend Role. Broke out last season for 1200 yards and 12 Td's but never really was as big of a threat as his numbers make you think. If I had to pick from Chuck and Wayne in a draft, I am taking Chuck each time, Rogers has all kinds of talent, speed and size that Wanye doesn't have. But you can't dimiss production .
Stokely vs Williams. Monster year, but unless Mike Williams is a bust on Ryan Leaf levels, there is no way I am giving this to Brandon Stokley.

Moorehead vs Johnson, Moorehead had one of the best preseason catches ever. But that's his entire career. Johnson has been good in the NFL, while he wasn't impressive for the Ravens, he is still better than anything Moorehead has been or will ever be.

Final Verdict

Advantage Colts. Their top 2 are better than Rogers and Williams, but not by alot. If Mike Williams manges to play to even 70% of what our draft position expectations are. The Lions will have a huge advantage.

Because of the wide margin between QB's, I am calling it a push. On paper, with an edge to the Colts because of experience.


I can't see where your analysis says that Pollard and Fitzsimmons are better than Clark and Hartsock. Hartsock has health problems. But Clark is every bit as good a receiver as Pollard. Fitzsimmons doesn't block as well as Hartsock, and a second tight end is supposed to be a blocking specialist typically. With Pollard being so much older, I think the advantage should go to Indy.

As for receivers, the advantage is with the Colts by a large margin. Harrison, Wayne and Stokely have proven their abilities for some years. Rogers, Williams and Williams have better potential, but that means nothing in this comparison. On paper, per the thread name, performance counts more than potential.

As for the fourth and fifth receivers, I would barely count them into the equation since they will rarely see the field or have an impact.

The biggest factor not shown in here on a team versus team comparison is the defenses. Detroit has a much deeper, talented defense than does Indianapolis. That could be the factor which makes this whole thing a push. Of course, the Lions D couldn't do much to stop Manning, Harrison, Wayne and Stokely last year.

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May 12th, 2005, 1:29 pm
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I agree with you guys...the biggest gap is at QB. I like Joey and I think he will come around given time to gel with the weapons that are now in place(combined with the health of these guys too).

I had the opportunity to watch Peyton play against the Bills in Buffalo on a road trip a couple of years back, and I really think that with the freedom he has for playcalling and making adjustments on the fly, defenses are at times bamboozled and set back on their heels. Buffalo hasn't been championship caliber lately, but their D has been pretty strong for a while, and Manning made it look like he was playing against a bunch of us posters.

Peyton is also going to provoke a little more fear than Joey can right now and make DB's second guess themselves(especially the way he sells a ball fake) and therefore gets the obvious edge.

I do believe, in time, and with some blessings that our Lions can contend


May 12th, 2005, 1:52 pm
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