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 Lions' problems can be traced to their leader 
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Wayne Fontes wrote:
This whole conversation is stupid as hell. I understand the whole concept of a team being a reflection of their leader... I get it. But, if this had happened when the Lions were winning 45-10 against Denver and Suh stomped on Tebow's arm, we would all be saying how great it was and blah blah blah. Winning heals everything and the fact that the Lions have gone 2-4 in their last 6 we're getting antsy and reactionary. Let's all chill the F out and realize that Suh has to take responsibility for his actions, and Schwartz, while fiery, does not in any way condone reckless or stupid behavior, as is the assumption by lots of posters.


Not me... I've been b!tching about this stuff since the start of the season!...

:idea: :arrow: :cheers:


November 28th, 2011, 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Wayne Fontes wrote:
This whole conversation is stupid as hell. I understand the whole concept of a team being a reflection of their leader... I get it. But, if this had happened when the Lions were winning 45-10 against Denver and Suh stomped on Tebow's arm, we would all be saying how great it was and blah blah blah. Winning heals everything and the fact that the Lions have gone 2-4 in their last 6 we're getting antsy and reactionary. Let's all chill the F out and realize that Suh has to take responsibility for his actions, and Schwartz, while fiery, does not in any way condone reckless or stupid behavior, as is the assumption by lots of posters.


In reality, we have no way of truly knowing whether Schwartz does or does not condone the actions of Ndamukong Suh. The only evidence is the fact that Suh was never really disciplined by the team for some of his other questionable acts. This one is, by far, the worst. And the fact is, I would NOT have accepted an act like this in ANY game, win or lose. It only brings more scrutiny to the team, particularly during the game. As I said in another thread, KVB getting flagged for unnecessary roughness on Aaron Rodgers was a joke of a call....but that call doesn't get made on teams who aren't widely viewed as "dirty". And the fact is, that moniker has come from the actions of only one player, and one player only. Even when Stafford throws DJ Moore to the ground.....most times a QB won't be seen as the instigator or villain in that episode. However, there are many who view Moore as the victim, despite his being thrown out of the game. The fact that Moore was basically facemasking Stafford during the "block" was conveniently overlooked by both the officials at the game and the league officials afterward. Even the announcers failed to notice that. Why? Well, because the Lions are a dirty team, and they MUST have started it.

It is up to the coach to address the problems that take place on the team, that brings the team down rather than raise them up. By all accounts, Schwartz has taken no action to address these issues with Suh. Schwartz accompanied Suh in his meeting with Goodell. And everyone, but everyone who knows football knows that you aren't going to get away with what Suh did against the Packers.

So, maybe you can accept winning at all costs, but not all of us do. While I don't want to see another 0-16 team in this town, I certainly don't want to see a team that has to break the rules to win games either.

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November 28th, 2011, 4:28 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Personally, I don't understand the criticism of this staff or front office. It all seems like knee-jerk overreactions to Suh's stomp. The team is competing for a playoff spot and along the way, the team's attitude has generated some negative press. Who cares? The Lions are finally fun to watch and we're talking about hiring new coaches. Unbelievable.

49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team is playing and hope they continue to be aggressive, just as the Ravens and Steelers have played for many years.

Pablo: Next year will be the fourth year of a four-year deal for Schwartz. When a coach is valued, extensions are typically granted before the beginning of the final season of the original contract (or very early in the season). So no, an extension isn't "needed" but failing to extend him within the first week or two of next season would make Schwartz a lame duck, and I think that would be a very bad move. It's not like letting a player get into the final year of his deal--when a coach's contract status is uncertain, it affects the entire organization. Just ask the Panthers what it was like last year with John Fox as a lame duck.

WJB: Can we at least agree that the team has progressively improved since Mayhew and Schwartz took over? We can quibble all day long about who built the team. However, it really doesn't matter who built the team as long as you are consistent with how you use that argument--whoever you think is in charge of the "building from scratch" is also in charge of acquiring players and organizational philosophy. If you want to give Mayhew the credit for building from scratch, that's fine, but he must also get the blame for stuff you don't like. Mayhew drafted Best, Suh, Delmas, Stafford and all these players that are getting criticized here every day. Mayhew hired Schwartz, failed to draft offensive linemen, etc etc etc. Personally, I think Mayhew and Schwartz have built the team together, are equally deserving of credit/blame, and I'd like to see them both stick around a long time since their approach has clearly improved the team.

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November 28th, 2011, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Wayne Fontes wrote:
This whole conversation is stupid as hell. I understand the whole concept of a team being a reflection of their leader... I get it. But, if this had happened when the Lions were winning 45-10 against Denver and Suh stomped on Tebow's arm, we would all be saying how great it was and blah blah blah. Winning heals everything and the fact that the Lions have gone 2-4 in their last 6 we're getting antsy and reactionary. Let's all chill the F out and realize that Suh has to take responsibility for his actions, and Schwartz, while fiery, does not in any way condone reckless or stupid behavior, as is the assumption by lots of posters.

I said this when the Lions were 5-0 and we were about to play them. The coach is just an angry guy, and he proved it with his unbelievable over-reaction over handshake-gate. He could have used that to make Harbaugh look like a jackass, but he instead tipped the scales into the complete opposite direction.

Schwartz is an angry guy, and Suh is an extension of Schwartz. It's not good. I'm trying to think of an angrier coach to compare him to... but I can't. He might be the angriest coach in NFL history.

And to think I'm just saying this because I'm not a Lions fan or because the Lions are losing 2 of the last 6, I'm not. I'm very unbiased in my comments. I hated TO ever since he started to celebrate with us. I wanted to trade him when every other 49er fan thought I was crazy. A man that puts himself before the team is NOT the kind of guy I want playing on my side.... aka Goldson... ugh.... he needs to go. Love his talent, hate his attitude.

Hopefully Suh can be corrected, but Schwartz would also need to fix his outlet of anger, and I don't know if that's possible.

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November 28th, 2011, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
mwill2 wrote:
49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team

I see what you're saying, and you're right in what you said, but what Suh did was after the play. What Harrison and Lewis did was DURING the play. \They didn't make mistakes to cost the team or make them look bad on a personal level that scrutinized them to the point that it became a distraction. They never had to apologize to their teammates because of their actions on the field, because they never had to.

You need a badass on your team, that is true. Suh is that badass, but he's taking it too far imo.

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November 28th, 2011, 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Another thing, I really really really dislike that Tony Dungy is the new "Moral Authority" of the NFL. He could disappear from all TV and the NFL in general for all I care.

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November 28th, 2011, 5:04 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
mwill2 wrote:
Personally, I don't understand the criticism of this staff or front office. It all seems like knee-jerk overreactions to Suh's stomp. The team is competing for a playoff spot and along the way, the team's attitude has generated some negative press. Who cares? The Lions are finally fun to watch and we're talking about hiring new coaches. Unbelievable.

49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team is playing and hope they continue to be aggressive, just as the Ravens and Steelers have played for many years.

Pablo: Next year will be the fourth year of a four-year deal for Schwartz. When a coach is valued, extensions are typically granted before the beginning of the final season of the original contract (or very early in the season). So no, an extension isn't "needed" but failing to extend him within the first week or two of next season would make Schwartz a lame duck, and I think that would be a very bad move. It's not like letting a player get into the final year of his deal--when a coach's contract status is uncertain, it affects the entire organization. Just ask the Panthers what it was like last year with John Fox as a lame duck.

WJB: Can we at least agree that the team has progressively improved since Mayhew and Schwartz took over? We can quibble all day long about who built the team. However, it really doesn't matter who built the team as long as you are consistent with how you use that argument--whoever you think is in charge of the "building from scratch" is also in charge of acquiring players and organizational philosophy. If you want to give Mayhew the credit for building from scratch, that's fine, but he must also get the blame for stuff you don't like. Mayhew drafted Best, Suh, Delmas, Stafford and all these players that are getting criticized here every day. Mayhew hired Schwartz, failed to draft offensive linemen, etc etc etc. Personally, I think Mayhew and Schwartz have built the team together, are equally deserving of credit/blame, and I'd like to see them both stick around a long time since their approach has clearly improved the team.


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November 28th, 2011, 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Quote:
Another thing, I really really really dislike that Tony Dungy is the new "Moral Authority" of the NFL. He could disappear from all TV and the NFL in general for all I care.

Amen to that brother. That was the first thing I thought when he has to give his opinion. I cannot stand these pompous do gooders who preach the word and then judge everyone around them. Maybe he should have saved some of his guidance for his son. And to the 49er fan who thinks everyone that celebrates should be cut/traded, REALLY? Look around the league, some of the best players are some of the most boisterous. I guess you would have gotten rid of Steve Smith in his prime. Schwartz the most violent coach ever? I guess living in Chicago and watching Ditka's antics jades me toward the whole violent coach thing. These are grown men playing a violent sport. Sometimes tempers flare and people make mistakes but to condemn an organization because one player did something you disagree with stinks of hyperbole.


November 28th, 2011, 5:17 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team

I see what you're saying, and you're right in what you said, but what Suh did was after the play. What Harrison and Lewis did was DURING the play. \They didn't make mistakes to cost the team or make them look bad on a personal level that scrutinized them to the point that it became a distraction. They never had to apologize to their teammates because of their actions on the field, because they never had to.

You need a badass on your team, that is true. Suh is that badass, but he's taking it too far imo.


Not true. James Harrison made a nasty hit IN THE SUPER BOWL vs. Arizona that drew an "unsportsmanlike" penalty--it was eerily similar to the play that got Suh ejected (a few helmet slams followed by a punch). Technically, it was during the play but was completely unnecessary and the announcers immediately suggested that Harrison be ejected. I remember watching a game in which Ray Lewis kicked a Bengals player in 2009 after a play was over.

I'm not defending any of these acts but all the moral outrage about Suh is silly to me. People worship Ray Lewis and he's been doing this stuff his entire career. People have just gotten caught up in the Suh hype I guess.

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November 28th, 2011, 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
mwill2 wrote:
49ers wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team

I see what you're saying, and you're right in what you said, but what Suh did was after the play. What Harrison and Lewis did was DURING the play. \They didn't make mistakes to cost the team or make them look bad on a personal level that scrutinized them to the point that it became a distraction. They never had to apologize to their teammates because of their actions on the field, because they never had to.

You need a badass on your team, that is true. Suh is that badass, but he's taking it too far imo.


Not true. James Harrison made a nasty hit IN THE SUPER BOWL vs. Arizona that drew an "unsportsmanlike" penalty--it was eerily similar to the play that got Suh ejected (a few helmet slams followed by a punch). Technically, it was during the play but was completely unnecessary and the announcers immediately suggested that Harrison be ejected. I remember watching a game in which Ray Lewis kicked a Bengals player in 2009 after a play was over.

I'm not defending any of these acts but all the moral outrage about Suh is silly to me. People worship Ray Lewis and he's been doing this stuff his entire career. People have just gotten caught up in the Suh hype I guess.


Not to mention that Suh has yet to, allegedly, kill someone yet.


November 28th, 2011, 6:07 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
mwill2 wrote:
Personally, I don't understand the criticism of this staff or front office. It all seems like knee-jerk overreactions to Suh's stomp. The team is competing for a playoff spot and along the way, the team's attitude has generated some negative press. Who cares? The Lions are finally fun to watch and we're talking about hiring new coaches. Unbelievable.

49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team is playing and hope they continue to be aggressive, just as the Ravens and Steelers have played for many years.

Pablo: Next year will be the fourth year of a four-year deal for Schwartz. When a coach is valued, extensions are typically granted before the beginning of the final season of the original contract (or very early in the season). So no, an extension isn't "needed" but failing to extend him within the first week or two of next season would make Schwartz a lame duck, and I think that would be a very bad move. It's not like letting a player get into the final year of his deal--when a coach's contract status is uncertain, it affects the entire organization. Just ask the Panthers what it was like last year with John Fox as a lame duck.

WJB: Can we at least agree that the team has progressively improved since Mayhew and Schwartz took over? We can quibble all day long about who built the team. However, it really doesn't matter who built the team as long as you are consistent with how you use that argument--whoever you think is in charge of the "building from scratch" is also in charge of acquiring players and organizational philosophy. If you want to give Mayhew the credit for building from scratch, that's fine, but he must also get the blame for stuff you don't like. Mayhew drafted Best, Suh, Delmas, Stafford and all these players that are getting criticized here every day. Mayhew hired Schwartz, failed to draft offensive linemen, etc etc etc. Personally, I think Mayhew and Schwartz have built the team together, are equally deserving of credit/blame, and I'd like to see them both stick around a long time since their approach has clearly improved the team.


mwill destroyed this thread/discussion. I agree wholeheartedly.

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November 28th, 2011, 7:59 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
I see what you're saying, and you're right in what you said, but what Suh did was after the play. What Harrison and Lewis did was DURING the play. \They didn't make mistakes to cost the team or make them look bad on a personal level that scrutinized them to the point that it became a distraction. They never had to apologize to their teammates because of their actions on the field, because they never had to.

You need a badass on your team, that is true. Suh is that badass, but he's taking it too far imo.

What about publicly trashing his whole team? And I love Ray Lewis to death so I hate to bring it up but he had some mad demons when he entered the league too. The only thing he ever did that crossed the line is the kick. As far as Jim Schwartz goes, How the hell would you know if he has angry issues? because of the one time when your butthole coach intentionally disrespected him(I thought we were done with that whole thing). and BTW, Todd Haley is easily the angriest coach in the NFL

Quote:
Not me... I've been b!tching about this stuff since the start of the season!...
:idea: :arrow: :cheers:

WJB, Are you seriously that happy that you've been bitching all season?

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Last edited by Killwill25 on November 28th, 2011, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.



November 28th, 2011, 8:03 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
As much as I like Schwartz, he has to get Suh under control. Suh needs to know that he can play with intensity, but he can't cross the line and Schwartz is not going to allow that line to get crossed.

Schwartz is always defending his guys, but it's time to take the blinders off!

As for Suh, he's needs to take his level of responsibilty for this situation as well. I love his intensity, but he needs to learn how to reel it in when needed.

I blame both of them for this situation and like LF57 said I'm not ready to show Schwartz the door, but I'm not ready to give him the keys to the castle forever either. I can't help but think of what a guy like Cohwer would have done with all the stupid penalties we've taken over the last several weeks,
I imagine spit would have been flying!!! I also have to believe that he would have been all up in Suh's grill for getting ejected, something Schwartz should have done.

Come on Schwartz, get control and help LEAD this team to the playoffs!

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November 28th, 2011, 8:50 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
the Lions "problem" right now has more to do with the struggling offense than Suh or the defensive penalties. offensive penalties on three drives in the first half got us in the hole and those penalties IMO were more a factor of talent and ability than discipline.

while suh has pushed beyond the limit of what is acceptable and that the moment in the last game was climactic and was definitely a turning point, its not the real reason we lost or struggled in that game - the play of the offense essentially gave us no chance. the defense put out the blueprint on how to stop the packers in that game in the first half and I dont want them as a group to change their mentality bc they are very effective. i ll agree with m2k s post but i think the notion that all of the lions problems can be rooted to stopping the defensive penalties is incorrect - we need consistency on offense and special teams moreso than less penalties on defense. unlike most on this thread i cannot rationally attribute the 4 losses to the one play by suh


November 28th, 2011, 10:19 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
I said this when the Lions were 5-0 and we were about to play them. The coach is just an angry guy, and he proved it with his unbelievable over-reaction over handshake-gate. He could have used that to make Harbaugh look like a jackass, but he instead tipped the scales into the complete opposite direction.


More than a few coaches are very active and aggressive on the sidelines, including your coach in SF. So to point out Jim Schwartz among numerous coaches in the NFL as being "an angry guy" more so than any of the others is just being extremely biased based on the whole handshake thing. I agree that Schwartz SHOULD have let it go, but in the heat of the moment when you are getting disrespected (yes, that is EXACTLY what Harbaugh did) on your own turf, I can at least understand the reaction.

49ers wrote:
Schwartz is an angry guy, and Suh is an extension of Schwartz. It's not good. I'm trying to think of an angrier coach to compare him to... but I can't. He might be the angriest coach in NFL history.


So tell me, what NFL coach do you see that is all sunshine and lollipops on the sidelines? Because, I don't see one. Tony Dungy, considered to be among the nicest, most soft-spoken coaches in NFL history, barely cracked a smile while he was walking the sidelines. Schwartz yells, screams....so do 31 other head coaches in the NFL. So do the OCs, DCs, STCs, position coaches, players, fans, etc. It's an emotional game, played by aggressive men who are taught that aggression will reap them benefits.

49ers wrote:
And to think I'm just saying this because I'm not a Lions fan or because the Lions are losing 2 of the last 6, I'm not. I'm very unbiased in my comments. I hated TO ever since he started to celebrate with us. I wanted to trade him when every other 49er fan thought I was crazy. A man that puts himself before the team is NOT the kind of guy I want playing on my side.... aka Goldson... ugh.... he needs to go. Love his talent, hate his attitude.

Hopefully Suh can be corrected, but Schwartz would also need to fix his outlet of anger, and I don't know if that's possible.


Schwartz' anger is not the issue. In reality, neither is Ndamukong Suh's anger. It's the misplacement of that anger. There are plenty of angry people who don't take out there aggressions in an illegal way. I have a nasty temper at times. But I also have an outlet to quell my aggressions. Most everybody does. Suh needs to release that aggression between the whistles, between the sidelines and goal lines. He needs to turn it on and turn it off when he needs to. It doesn't have to be reduced, or toned down. It needs to be brought under control.

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November 28th, 2011, 10:55 pm
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