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 Lions' problems can be traced to their leader 
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
m2karateman wrote:
49ers wrote:
I said this when the Lions were 5-0 and we were about to play them. The coach is just an angry guy, and he proved it with his unbelievable over-reaction over handshake-gate. He could have used that to make Harbaugh look like a jackass, but he instead tipped the scales into the complete opposite direction.


More than a few coaches are very active and aggressive on the sidelines, including your coach in SF. So to point out Jim Schwartz among numerous coaches in the NFL as being "an angry guy" more so than any of the others is just being extremely biased based on the whole handshake thing. I agree that Schwartz SHOULD have let it go, but in the heat of the moment when you are getting disrespected (yes, that is EXACTLY what Harbaugh did) on your own turf, I can at least understand the reaction.

49ers wrote:
Schwartz is an angry guy, and Suh is an extension of Schwartz. It's not good. I'm trying to think of an angrier coach to compare him to... but I can't. He might be the angriest coach in NFL history.


So tell me, what NFL coach do you see that is all sunshine and lollipops on the sidelines? Because, I don't see one. Tony Dungy, considered to be among the nicest, most soft-spoken coaches in NFL history, barely cracked a smile while he was walking the sidelines. Schwartz yells, screams....so do 31 other head coaches in the NFL. So do the OCs, DCs, STCs, position coaches, players, fans, etc. It's an emotional game, played by aggressive men who are taught that aggression will reap them benefits.

49ers wrote:
And to think I'm just saying this because I'm not a Lions fan or because the Lions are losing 2 of the last 6, I'm not. I'm very unbiased in my comments. I hated TO ever since he started to celebrate with us. I wanted to trade him when every other 49er fan thought I was crazy. A man that puts himself before the team is NOT the kind of guy I want playing on my side.... aka Goldson... ugh.... he needs to go. Love his talent, hate his attitude.

Hopefully Suh can be corrected, but Schwartz would also need to fix his outlet of anger, and I don't know if that's possible.


Schwartz' anger is not the issue. In reality, neither is Ndamukong Suh's anger. It's the misplacement of that anger. There are plenty of angry people who don't take out there aggressions in an illegal way. I have a nasty temper at times. But I also have an outlet to quell my aggressions. Most everybody does. Suh needs to release that aggression between the whistles, between the sidelines and goal lines. He needs to turn it on and turn it off when he needs to. It doesn't have to be reduced, or toned down. It needs to be brought under control.
mwill2 wrote:
Personally, I don't understand the criticism of this staff or front office. It all seems like knee-jerk overreactions to Suh's stomp. The team is competing for a playoff spot and along the way, the team's attitude has generated some negative press. Who cares? The Lions are finally fun to watch and we're talking about hiring new coaches. Unbelievable.

49ers: With a few exceptions, I'd say that it is non-Lions fans who think there is a problem at all. The Lions are winning more games than they are losing. If you ask me, that's not a problem--that's major progress for this franchise. And I'm not sure what you are looking at in terms of "disciplined teams." The league whipping boy for dirty play for the past 3-4 years was James Harrison--would you care to examine his Super Bowl ring? I suppose Mike Tomlin demonstrated that he wasn't a Super Bowl caliber coach since he wasn't able to control Harrison. Ray Lewis has been called "dirty" his entire Hall of Fame, Def. Player of the Year, Super-Bowl-winning career. Don't get me wrong--I agree that Suh shouldn't have stomped the guy. It was classless. However, I like the way this team is playing and hope they continue to be aggressive, just as the Ravens and Steelers have played for many years.

Pablo: Next year will be the fourth year of a four-year deal for Schwartz. When a coach is valued, extensions are typically granted before the beginning of the final season of the original contract (or very early in the season). So no, an extension isn't "needed" but failing to extend him within the first week or two of next season would make Schwartz a lame duck, and I think that would be a very bad move. It's not like letting a player get into the final year of his deal--when a coach's contract status is uncertain, it affects the entire organization. Just ask the Panthers what it was like last year with John Fox as a lame duck.

WJB: Can we at least agree that the team has progressively improved since Mayhew and Schwartz took over? We can quibble all day long about who built the team. However, it really doesn't matter who built the team as long as you are consistent with how you use that argument--whoever you think is in charge of the "building from scratch" is also in charge of acquiring players and organizational philosophy. If you want to give Mayhew the credit for building from scratch, that's fine, but he must also get the blame for stuff you don't like. Mayhew drafted Best, Suh, Delmas, Stafford and all these players that are getting criticized here every day. Mayhew hired Schwartz, failed to draft offensive linemen, etc etc etc. Personally, I think Mayhew and Schwartz have built the team together, are equally deserving of credit/blame, and I'd like to see them both stick around a long time since their approach has clearly improved the team.
Great posts fellas! :cheers: =D>

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November 29th, 2011, 11:47 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
I stand by what I said. You either condemn the actions of your players, or you condone them.

I see a LOT of stupid penalties by the Lions. Schwartz doesn't seem to care, he wants to talk to them and get their side of the story. He should be yelling at them telling them how stupid they are. Sitting them out for a series, etc. He's condoning it, so these actions will continue.

Schwartz is an angry dude. All interviews with him prior to the game, he's just doing what appears to be controlled rage. An evil/mad-looking goblin. I've never liked him because of his attitude. He can't control it, and he chooses not to control his players.

This Saints game is a great example of the players acting as an extension of their coach. I'm not surprised at all.

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December 5th, 2011, 12:30 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Hope I'm not alone on this. WHO CARES WHAT A NINERS FAN THINKS?

Anyone who thinks the Lions are not a much improved team now with Schwartz & Co. is blind.
They will continue to misstep, players and coaching staff. But to me that's to be expected when you build a team from nothing.


December 5th, 2011, 1:25 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
I stand by what I said. You either condemn the actions of your players, or you condone them.

I see a LOT of stupid penalties by the Lions. Schwartz doesn't seem to care, he wants to talk to them and get their side of the story. He should be yelling at them telling them how stupid they are. Sitting them out for a series, etc. He's condoning it, so these actions will continue.

Schwartz is an angry dude. All interviews with him prior to the game, he's just doing what appears to be controlled rage. An evil/mad-looking goblin. I've never liked him because of his attitude. He can't control it, and he chooses not to control his players.

This Saints game is a great example of the players acting as an extension of their coach. I'm not surprised at all.


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December 5th, 2011, 1:35 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
I stand by what I said. You either condemn the actions of your players, or you condone them.

I see a LOT of stupid penalties by the Lions. Schwartz doesn't seem to care, he wants to talk to them and get their side of the story. He should be yelling at them telling them how stupid they are. Sitting them out for a series, etc. He's condoning it, so these actions will continue.

Schwartz is an angry dude. All interviews with him prior to the game, he's just doing what appears to be controlled rage. An evil/mad-looking goblin. I've never liked him because of his attitude. He can't control it, and he chooses not to control his players.

This Saints game is a great example of the players acting as an extension of their coach. I'm not surprised at all.



So, when a person is interviewed and they aren't showing their happy face, they are automatically considered angry by you?

Players act of their own volition. These are grown men playing this game, not elementary school children. They act, not based on what their coach tells them to do, but based on what they feel they have to. If the players, as you say, act as an extension of their coach, then the Jets would be absolutely over the top with their penalties.

I do, however, support your notion that Schwartz isn't handling this correctly. That doesn't mean he is condoning their actions, but I don't think the "tell me your side" approach is working. It's sort of like a parent who has a child that gets in trouble at school with a teacher. The parent asks the child their side of the story, instead of realizing that the teacher has no reason to lie, but the child has EVERY reason to.

He needs to stop screwing around with these guys, quit being their friend or therapist in these instances, and start benching people. I like what Raheem Morris did with Brian Price in Tampa Bay. Not only did he tell him to leave the field, he ordered him out of the stadium. I think it's high time Schwartz start taking that approach.

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December 5th, 2011, 9:56 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
.

"2. It's been years since I've seen a team as undisciplined and as angry as Detroit." -Peter King

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... z1fgWo4XXr

Peter King agrees with me. You guys are viewing it from within, so it doesn't look as bad.

I don't hate the Lions. I love the team and city, AND FANS. You guys have suffered long enough. You are blind because of the record of the Lions, and you're currently outside looking in as far as playoffs are concerned. Schwartz isn't going to get the job done. Too many mistakes. Too many anger problems. Schwartz is condoning the behavior, not condemning it.

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December 5th, 2011, 2:08 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
m2karateman wrote:
Players act of their own volition. These are grown men playing this game, not elementary school children. They act, not based on what their coach tells them to do, but based on what they feel they have to. If the players, as you say, act as an extension of their coach, then the Jets would be absolutely over the top with their penalties.

I'm going to disagree to a point. Vernon Davis: selfish player that didn't care until Singletary kicking him out of a game, then reemed him out publicly and privately. He turned it around because the coach CONDEMNED his actions, the opposite of what Mike Nolan did. Dre Bly also, with his famous "Dre bein Dre" speach after he celebrated an interception when the Niners were being blown out, and proceeded to fumble it back to the other team. Dre refused to change, and was released. Again, an action that wasn't condoned.

The team changed. The attitude changed. Stupid penalties STOPPED. Selfish actions STOPPED. Singletary, however, couldn't coach and was therefore released.

Harbaugh comes in with this "I'm gonna play my game and I don't care what you say" attitude. The players all have the same attitude. But as far as stupid play goes, he doesn't condone it. When Goldson threw a punch, he was pulled from the game, as well as reemed out by Harbaugh.

You said Jets players. Rex Ryan isn't angry the same way Schwartz is. Rex is always smiling and laughing with his players. He challenges them to play tough and play hard. NO EXCUSES. That's what he preaches, and his players play the way he preaches.

Schwartz is different. I see "controlled rage" when I look at him. It's just how I see it. He's an angry guy, and his players portray that. How many STUPID penalties did you see vs the Saints in which the players threw a punch or a ball at a player, or pushed a ref, etc? So many. Too many.

It all starts at the top. No other team in the NFL behaves like the Lions do. NOT ONE. Schwartz is allowing it.

I'm not here to bash you personally. Please know that.

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December 5th, 2011, 2:18 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
.

"2. It's been years since I've seen a team as undisciplined and as angry as Detroit." -Peter King

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... z1fgWo4XXr

Peter King agrees with me. You guys are viewing it from within, so it doesn't look as bad.

I don't hate the Lions. I love the team and city, AND FANS. You guys have suffered long enough. You are blind because of the record of the Lions, and you're currently outside looking in as far as playoffs are concerned. Schwartz isn't going to get the job done. Too many mistakes. Too many anger problems. Schwartz is condoning the behavior, not condemning it.

Actually that's not true at all. First, Peter King never said that Schwartz is the problem, as you have and are saying. He just said, well you can see it above. It doesn't say anything about the coach.

I agree that the coach needs to address it, but I disagree that somehow Schwartz being fiery allows this to happen. There are plenty of fiery coaches who don't have dirty teams. Cowher was always super intense and fired up, but his teams weren't known to be dirty. There are many other examples. It's true that Schwartz absolutely needs to address this and take drastic measures as necessary. But I don't think it has anything to do with his personality.

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December 5th, 2011, 3:25 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Oh, but didn't you hear? Schwartz is an "angry goblin"! We need a coach with great composure to set things straight...you know, someone like Jim Harbaugh. ](*,)

Maybe during practice this week, Schwartz should hang a WWJHD? sign in his office. That ought to do the trick.

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December 5th, 2011, 3:49 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
.

"2. It's been years since I've seen a team as undisciplined and as angry as Detroit." -Peter King

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... z1fgWo4XXr

Peter King agrees with me. You guys are viewing it from within, so it doesn't look as bad.

I don't hate the Lions. I love the team and city, AND FANS. You guys have suffered long enough. You are blind because of the record of the Lions, and you're currently outside looking in as far as playoffs are concerned. Schwartz isn't going to get the job done. Too many mistakes. Too many anger problems. Schwartz is condoning the behavior, not condemning it.


Peter King also predicted the Lions would win the Super Bowl before the season started!!!

He writes things to stir things up, more than what he really believes. Sounds like a certain 49ers fan who has been posting on here recently.

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December 5th, 2011, 4:29 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
Pablo wrote:
He writes things to stir things up, more than what he really believes. Sounds like a certain 49ers fan who has been posting on here recently.

So my whole purpose is to stir things up? I don't really believe in what I say?

Don't know why you would think that. I believe that the Lions nearly have all the pieces to succeed, I've said that quite a few times. Their coaching is killing them. I've never liked Schwartz as a coach.

I don't know how someone could watch that game yesterday, see all those players losing their cool, and NOT blame the coach for that. A coach in control doesn't allow that bs. That's all on Schwartz.

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December 5th, 2011, 8:11 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
“We’re undisciplined. Undisciplined. Undisciplined,” Raiola said “We [expletive] it up. It’s very disheartening to do this [expletive] in big games. We got to clean it up. We ain’t going to win [expletive] games like this if you play like that.”

If a team is undisciplined, who's fault is that? The players say they are undisciplined. Who is at fault? Who's job is it to discipline?

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December 5th, 2011, 8:14 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
“We’re undisciplined. Undisciplined. Undisciplined,” Raiola said “We [expletive] it up. It’s very disheartening to do this [expletive] in big games. We got to clean it up. We ain’t going to win [expletive] games like this if you play like that.”

If a team is undisciplined, who's fault is that? The players say they are undisciplined. Who is at fault? Who's job is it to discipline?


I'm sorry guys, I've been a Lions fan my whole life, and I'm thrilled to see the Lions on the verge of the playoffs (and also a bit annoyed by the fan of another suddenly good team proselytizing on here) but 49ers is right. From the outside, it's plain to see that the Lions are the result of poor coaching. Schwartz may improve, but this team has made mistakes throughout his tenure here, and it's gotten worse, not better.
If he's going to rein in the team, he better do it sooner than later, because if they finish the season at 8-8 after a 5-0 start with the lack of control they've exhibited, his job WILL be on the line, no matter if they've improved from 0-16 or not.


December 5th, 2011, 8:53 pm
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
The Detroit News wrote:
December 06. 2011 1:00AM.

Bob Wojnowski


Time for Lions coach Jim Schwartz to tame team tempers

Allen Park -- Lions coach Jim Schwartz is facing an issue, and he's astute enough to know it. The key is, he must be tough enough to handle it.

The Lions have gone from a feisty 5-0 team to a furious 7-5 team teetering madly. Their penalty-filled circus show on national TV in New Orleans was embarrassing. There's no shame in losing to the powerful Saints, 31-17, but there's plenty of shame in how they did it.

The Lions looked like a team not ready for prime time, not able to control their emotions, not disciplined enough to handle the heat. In situations like this, the heat ultimately goes to the coach, and since Schwartz is holding the reins, he needs to tug harder.

That means benching a player, as he did after rookie receiver Titus Young pulled a ridiculous post-whistle face shove. That means not condoning everything Ndamukong Suh does when he returns from his two-game suspension. No, it doesn't mean cutting a player just to send a message, not with the playoff race so wide-open.

This is a compelling test for Schwartz. He said he takes responsibility, as he should. He also loudly demanded accountability of his players in the dressing room in New Orleans, then met with the team captains on the plane ride home. Stakes and urgency are rising, starting with a winnable home game Sunday against the Vikings.

"Obviously, everything on the field is a reflection of the organization, a reflection of the head coach, a reflection of all the coaches and players," Schwartz said Monday. "That's not a presentation we want. Selfish play won't be tolerated."

Tolerance should drop as gaffes go up. The Lions have done a fine job this season of mashing their way to relevance. They play with a nastiness the good teams possess, and a brashness they haven't quite earned.

It's almost as if Schwartz and his staff wanted to get the Lions as competitive and edgy as quickly as possible, then figure out what to do once they got there.

They're there now, and with a playoff race waiting to be won, the out-of-control nonsense has to stop. So many NFC teams are struggling, someone is trying to give away a playoff spot. The Lions are strongly advised not to give it back.

Time to grow up is now

No excuses. This team hasn't been to the playoffs in 12 years but it's loaded with veterans, so maintaining composure shouldn't be that stinkin' difficult.

Center Dominic Raiola, one of the captains, was so steamed with teammates after the game, he sat at his locker and shouted the salient phrase.

"Grow the (blank) up everybody!" Raiola said. "GROW UP!"

Yes, it's time for the Lions mental growth to catch up with their physical growth. The talent is evident. They actually had a decent chance against the Saints, if not for 11 penalties.

Matthew Stafford was mostly brilliant, but every time the Lions took a step forward, they took 15 yards back.

Young was penalized for his dumb act. Stefan Logan was penalized for flipping the ball at a player after the whistle. Brandon Pettigrew was penalized for pushing a player and bumping a ref.

The Lions displayed every conceivable act of selfishness and immaturity short of stomping on a prone player. And if any calls resulted from their reputation — or were provoked by the opposition — well, they should round the rough edges off that reputation.

It's not like the image is new or fabricated. Back in the opener at Tampa Bay, offensive tackle Gosder Cherilus committed a silly personal foul and was benched.

"It has been addressed and will continue to be addressed, and players that do those things won't play," Schwartz said. "(As a coach), you have to be sure you're reacting and being proactive, but you're not overreacting. All the penalties after the whistle were selfish plays."

Handling the heat

Don't get me wrong. Lions fans should love their team's aggressiveness and merry mayhem. It's been a while since we've seen football like this in Detroit, but it's important to remember, there is a line. Suh crossed it, even though it took him a while to realize it, and others seem eager to follow.

Schwartz fosters a chippy (and sometimes chirpy) attitude, and with the right talent, it's successful. It's the way his tough defenses played at Tennessee. It's what he showed after the loss to the 49ers, when he angrily chased down Jim Harbaugh

I doubt Lions players saw their coach lose his cool and figured, hey, it's OK to do the same! But Schwartz sets the tone, and generally, it's a good one. The problem is, when the heat turns up, the Lions don't know how to tone it down.

Is it any coincidence their two ugliest displays came in nationally televised showdowns? Suh was ejected on Thanksgiving Day at a crucial time in a loss to the Packers, part of the Lions 11 penalties. Veteran receiver Nate Burleson is as feisty and experienced as anyone, but was called for an astonishing three offensive pass-interferences against the Saints.

"Maybe that (ticked)-off attitude we've been using to fuel us for so long is starting to spill out," Burleson admitted after the game. "We've got to learn to control it and show some maturity."

It's not that simple, but it really is. Growing stronger was one step. Growing up is another. If the players don't get it, the coach has no choice but to hammer the point even harder.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111206/OPI ... z1fkZFmlpa



I like a lot of what Schwartz has done since he's been here and the mistakes he's made to date are IMO acceptable for a relatively new head coach. I agree with a lot of what this article says but I disagree with a key element. It seems to me that the penalties, chippyness and personal fouls have picked up since Schwartz's incident with Harbaugh. It's on Schwartz to fix this regardless but he may need to take some ownership for the state of where the team is at.

Furthermore, the leaders of the team are going to need to step up as well. I'm nervous when I think about Raiola being the "veteran voice of leadership on the offense". This is the same clown that's had several run ins with fans as well as an ugly (potentially disastrous) incident in a Plymouth bar. So I'd rather that players like Stafford, Johnson, Hanson, Tulloch and VandenBoch stepped up even more.

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December 6th, 2011, 7:03 am
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Post Re: Lions' problems can be traced to their leader
49ers wrote:
I stand by what I said. You either condemn the actions of your players, or you condone them.

I see a LOT of stupid penalties by the Lions. Schwartz doesn't seem to care, he wants to talk to them and get their side of the story. He should be yelling at them telling them how stupid they are. Sitting them out for a series, etc. He's condoning it, so these actions will continue.

Schwartz is an angry dude. All interviews with him prior to the game, he's just doing what appears to be controlled rage. An evil/mad-looking goblin. I've never liked him because of his attitude. He can't control it, and he chooses not to control his players.

This Saints game is a great example of the players acting as an extension of their coach. I'm not surprised at all.


Not that I care at all about what a 49ers fan thinks of the Lions. But, your full of crap. You obviously didn't notice the Titus Young didn't play the rest of the game after he had an idiot attack. Now run along. Don't you have a team that you care for?


December 7th, 2011, 3:37 am
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