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 How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It? 
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
Answer this question, if he were a FA coming from a different team is he somebody you would want the Lions to sign?


Yes, cause we have seen how worse off our safties are without him on the field. When healthy, Delmas would be a major upgrade over anything else we have out there. Hell, even when hurt he is our best safety.

I agree with Pablo. I don't know why he's getting most of the blame for that loss.

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January 30th, 2012, 8:37 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
kdsberman wrote:
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
Answer this question, if he were a FA coming from a different team is he somebody you would want the Lions to sign?


Yes, cause we have seen how worse off our safties are without him on the field. When healthy, Delmas would be a major upgrade over anything else we have out there. Hell, even when hurt he is our best safety.



Thats a good point. Unfortunately, that just goes to show how bad our safeties need upgraded.


+1

Just because Delmas is OUR best safety, doesn't mean he's THE best safety. I think an upgrade is definitely possible, either through FA or the draft. But it's not like I'm saying cut Delmas. There's four or five other guys that can go ahead of him. I'd just like to see the Lions get more talent at that spot and not hand over the starting job to Delmas as if he IS a Pro Bowl talent, when in fact he is not.

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January 30th, 2012, 8:50 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
he s got a good chance to make a pro bowl at some point


January 31st, 2012, 6:09 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
The Legend wrote:
he s got a good chance to make a pro bowl at some point


Though i see your point, unfortunately making the Pro Bowl nowadays means nothing as far as how good a player really is.

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January 31st, 2012, 9:11 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
kdsberman wrote:
The Legend wrote:
he s got a good chance to make a pro bowl at some point


Though i see your point, unfortunately making the Pro Bowl nowadays means nothing as far as how good a player really is.


See Matt Stafford vs. Eli Manning....

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February 1st, 2012, 12:15 am
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
m2karateman wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
The Legend wrote:
he s got a good chance to make a pro bowl at some point


Though i see your point, unfortunately making the Pro Bowl nowadays means nothing as far as how good a player really is.


See Matt Stafford vs. Eli Manning....

3 true statements

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February 1st, 2012, 12:54 am
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
i love it - m2k starts it by using "pro bowl talent" as some kind of barometer than jumps down the throat of that statement. pure genius.

this delmas sucks stuff is going too far, he is probably the best player we have in the secondary and everyone s scapegoating him. he s going to be back and starting, there is virtually no chance he gets replaced anytime soon. i get it he had some bad games but the reality is he missed the last 5 weeks of the regular season and for the most part the rest of the guys sorely missed him. move along guys, start looking for competition for spievey and maybe another starting corner to replace or displace wright into a lesser role. delmas is coming back.


February 1st, 2012, 11:14 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
The Legend wrote:
i love it - m2k starts it by using "pro bowl talent" as some kind of barometer than jumps down the throat of that statement. pure genius.


Excuse me...but Pro Bowl TALENT and Pro Bowl APPEARANCE is two completely different things to me. So, just to clear things up for you, how about we say ALL PRO talent to describe someone who is among the best at their position, just so we don't confuse you.

The Legend wrote:
this delmas sucks stuff is going too far, he is probably the best player we have in the secondary and everyone s scapegoating him. he s going to be back and starting, there is virtually no chance he gets replaced anytime soon. i get it he had some bad games but the reality is he missed the last 5 weeks of the regular season and for the most part the rest of the guys sorely missed him. move along guys, start looking for competition for spievey and maybe another starting corner to replace or displace wright into a lesser role. delmas is coming back.


Raiola is coming back too. Does that mean that we, as fans, can't regret that decision, as we have for a few years now? Peterman has been brought back for the past three seasons, despite his being less than average. Should we not ask that the FO look for someone better?

Delmas doesn't suck. I've never said that he does. What I've said is that he isn't as good as advertised. He isn't a sure tackler, and he's not a coverage safety. He's a big talker who goes for the big hit rather than making the sure play. There are times when seeing those big hits is great as a fan. But if you keep your focus on him throughout a game, you'll see that he is nowhere NEAR the talent of an Ed Reed or a Troy Polamalu. And when you are talking about ALL PRO safeties, those are the guys that are brought into the conversation. Delmas will never approach that level, because his technical skills aren't as refined as that of those two guys.
I agree that Spievey is the weak link and is the one that needs to be replaced ahead of Delmas. But I disagree that Delmas is the best player in the secondary. Chris Houston is better than Delmas, and in my opinion it's not even close. Houston isn't a physical tackler, but he makes tackles. Houston doesn't shut down opposing top receivers for an entire game, but he doesn't let receivers run right past him when they are his responsibility. Delmas has done that, numerous times.
I also agree that Wright is better suited to nickel or dime duties than starting duties. He's a good tackler, but seems to struggle against bigger receivers with speed. That's why Aaron Berry was used on those receivers in nickel packages. Unfortunately, I don't think Berry is the answer either. He just doesn't get his head around and seems to lack that recovery speed that a starting corner needs to have. Alfonso Smith should be strictly a nickel or dime back. The problem is, that leaves us with Smith, Berry and Wright as nickel or dime corners, and no second starter. Getting another starter should be among the Lions priorities, as you said. Just remember, Wright is a free agent again, so he is probably the odd man out.

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February 2nd, 2012, 11:54 am
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
The Legend wrote:
m2k hope u learned something bud

catch you later


What was I supposed to have learned? The obvious? I pretty much knew our offense was one dimensional, almost the entire season. What does that have to do with anything?

If the Lions improve their ground game, it will improve their team, but it WILL NOT improve their ability to stop opposing teams from scoring against our current defense. IT. WILL. NOT.

Improving the running game has been something that I've said I'd like to see happen for the Lions. I have been harping about the Lions improving the offensvie line for YEARS now. I have discussed the benefits of the Lions getting Peter Konz or Cordy Glenn in round one of this upcoming draft.

So where the Hell have you been? What posts have you been reading?

However, all of that doesn't change several things:

1. Scott Linehan doesn't impress me with his playcalling or his repetoire of running plays for this offense. Even with the greatest personnel on offense, a poor scheme won't be overcome by top talent. Remember, opposing teams that can predict your plays is at the advantage. And Linehan is predictable as they come.

2. The Lions defense was ranked WELL BEHIND our offense among the NFL teams. Rushing defense, scoring defense, passing defense....our defense was ranked 23rd in points against, 23rd in total yards allowed, 22nd against the pass, and 23rd in rushing yards allowed. Our offense, on the other hand, was ranked 4th in the league in scoring, 5th in the league in total yards, 4th in the league in passing, and 29th overall in rushing.

Oh, oh...I know...the best rushing teams are more successful, right?

No.

The top five rushing teams this season? Denver, Houston, Carolina, Minnesota and Philadelphia. Collective record: 35-45

The worst five rushing teams this season? Cleveland, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Tennessee, NY Giants? Collective record: 36-44

The top five passing teams this season? New Orleans, New England, Green Bay, Detroit and NY Giants. Collective record: 60-20

The worst five passing teams this season? Minnesota, San Francisco, St. Louis, Denver and Jacksonville. Collective record - 31-49

So lets see here...the difference between the top five rushing teams records and the lowest five rushing teams records is one game...in favor of the lowest five rushing teams in the league. But, for the passing teams, the difference is 29 games for the top passing teams in the league. Hmmmm.......

Oh wait, I know. It's all about time of possession, right? Holding onto the ball more and burning the clock MUST be the key!

Lions ranked 18th overall in ToP, with holding the ball slightly over half the game on offense (30:09) on average. But the successful teams MUST be the ones to control the clock, right? Well...Denver ranked 21st, despite being a top five rushing team. The Super Bowl bound Giants and Patriots, both with strong top five passing games, ranked 23rd and 26th respectively in ToP. And San Diego ranked third overall in ToP, but still didn't get into the playoffs. Houston, Pittsburgh, Atlanta and San Francisco round out the top five in that category. All playoff teams, all strong running teams. However, it is well known that Pittsburgh and SF have strong defenses. And Houston became a playoff team by improving their DEFENSE, not their offense. Likewise, the Lions have made a turn round to become a playoff team only after they improved their defensive line AND kept their franchise signal caller healthy for an entire season.

So let's look at the defensive side, shall we?

The top five defenses in scoring allowed were Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Baltimore, Houston and Cleveland. Collective record: 51-29

The worst five defenses against scoring were Indianapolis, Oakland, Buffalo, Minnesota and Tampa Bay. Collective record: 23-57

That's a 28 game spread between the records of the best and worst teams in the league in scoring defense.

The top five defenses against yardage allowed were the same five above in the top five scoring defenses, except swap out Cleveland with the Jets. Collective record: 55-25

The worst five defenses against yardage allowed were Carolina, Oakland, Tampa Bay, NEW ENGLAND and GREEN BAY. Collective record: 46-34

That's a 9 game spread between the records of the best and worst teams in the league in total yards allowed.

Wow, despite giving up the MOST YARDS in the NFL, both the Patriots and Packers didn't give up the most points. In fact, the Pats were 15th in points allowed and the Packers 19th.

So...what's the moral to the story?

Passing wins games. Stopping teams from scoring wins games. Rushing the ball successfully is good, but is NOT necessarily intrical to WINNING. Allowing yardage will happen, but the defense MUST make stops when it counts to win games.

Ball control is a fine thing to have, but is not a necessary ingredient to being successful in the NFL. You want to win? You have to be able to score when it matters and stop the other team when it matters. The Lions can score when it matters, not all the time, but did it enough to get themselves into the playoffs. Their biggest single problem was on defense....DEFENSE. Their inability to stop an opposing team from SCORING when the game was on the line....that's what killed them.

I want the Lions to have a more balanced offense. I want them to improve their offensive line. But the fact is, having that won't dramatically improve their chances of winning more than fixing the defense will. And it's all there for you in black and white.

I hope YOU learned something.....

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February 2nd, 2012, 12:56 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
Louis Delmas is a stud, just accept it.

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February 2nd, 2012, 4:03 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
Killwill25 wrote:
Louis Delmas is a stud, just accept it.


I wont accept that at all. Calvn Johnson is a stud. Avril is a stud. Stafford is a stud. Delmas is a serviceable safety.

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February 2nd, 2012, 9:20 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
Why didnt this thread end with m2ks post?

Great research dude.

Also agree with the last delmas comment.He is servicable and hopefully will continue to get better, but he is not a top 10 safety in the league, and since hes our best safety that is worrisome. If we add our Ed Reed (or even a pale shadow) to pair with him, that would be stupendous


February 2nd, 2012, 10:59 pm
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
kdsberman wrote:
Killwill25 wrote:
Louis Delmas is a stud, just accept it.


I wont accept that at all. Calvn Johnson is a stud. Avril is a stud. Stafford is a stud. Delmas is a serviceable safety.


Johnson, Stafford +1.

Avril is not a stud. He is a serviceable DE. He should get paid as such, or move on to someone willing to overpay him. He has to go around a tackle to get a sack, not through them. And he's not even doing it from the blind side.

Delmas > Avril. Not saying Delmas is great, just saying

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February 3rd, 2012, 1:35 am
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
Quote:
What was I supposed to have learned? The obvious? I pretty much knew our offense was one dimensional, almost the entire season. What does that have to do with anything?

If the Lions improve their ground game, it will improve their team, but it WILL NOT improve their ability to stop opposing teams from scoring against our current defense. IT. WILL. NOT.

Improving the running game has been something that I've said I'd like to see happen for the Lions. I have been harping about the Lions improving the offensvie line for YEARS now. I have discussed the benefits of the Lions getting Peter Konz or Cordy Glenn in round one of this upcoming draft.

So where the Hell have you been? What posts have you been reading?

However, all of that doesn't change several things:

1. Scott Linehan doesn't impress me with his playcalling or his repetoire of running plays for this offense. Even with the greatest personnel on offense, a poor scheme won't be overcome by top talent. Remember, opposing teams that can predict your plays is at the advantage. And Linehan is predictable as they come.

2. The Lions defense was ranked WELL BEHIND our offense among the NFL teams. Rushing defense, scoring defense, passing defense....our defense was ranked 23rd in points against, 23rd in total yards allowed, 22nd against the pass, and 23rd in rushing yards allowed. Our offense, on the other hand, was ranked 4th in the league in scoring, 5th in the league in total yards, 4th in the league in passing, and 29th overall in rushing.

Oh, oh...I know...the best rushing teams are more successful, right?

No.

The top five rushing teams this season? Denver, Houston, Carolina, Minnesota and Philadelphia. Collective record: 35-45

The worst five rushing teams this season? Cleveland, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Tennessee, NY Giants? Collective record: 36-44

The top five passing teams this season? New Orleans, New England, Green Bay, Detroit and NY Giants. Collective record: 60-20

The worst five passing teams this season? Minnesota, San Francisco, St. Louis, Denver and Jacksonville. Collective record - 31-49

So lets see here...the difference between the top five rushing teams records and the lowest five rushing teams records is one game...in favor of the lowest five rushing teams in the league. But, for the passing teams, the difference is 29 games for the top passing teams in the league. Hmmmm.......

Oh wait, I know. It's all about time of possession, right? Holding onto the ball more and burning the clock MUST be the key!

Lions ranked 18th overall in ToP, with holding the ball slightly over half the game on offense (30:09) on average. But the successful teams MUST be the ones to control the clock, right? Well...Denver ranked 21st, despite being a top five rushing team. The Super Bowl bound Giants and Patriots, both with strong top five passing games, ranked 23rd and 26th respectively in ToP. And San Diego ranked third overall in ToP, but still didn't get into the playoffs. Houston, Pittsburgh, Atlanta and San Francisco round out the top five in that category. All playoff teams, all strong running teams. However, it is well known that Pittsburgh and SF have strong defenses. And Houston became a playoff team by improving their DEFENSE, not their offense. Likewise, the Lions have made a turn round to become a playoff team only after they improved their defensive line AND kept their franchise signal caller healthy for an entire season.

So let's look at the defensive side, shall we?

The top five defenses in scoring allowed were Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Baltimore, Houston and Cleveland. Collective record: 51-29

The worst five defenses against scoring were Indianapolis, Oakland, Buffalo, Minnesota and Tampa Bay. Collective record: 23-57

That's a 28 game spread between the records of the best and worst teams in the league in scoring defense.

The top five defenses against yardage allowed were the same five above in the top five scoring defenses, except swap out Cleveland with the Jets. Collective record: 55-25

The worst five defenses against yardage allowed were Carolina, Oakland, Tampa Bay, NEW ENGLAND and GREEN BAY. Collective record: 46-34

That's a 9 game spread between the records of the best and worst teams in the league in total yards allowed.

Wow, despite giving up the MOST YARDS in the NFL, both the Patriots and Packers didn't give up the most points. In fact, the Pats were 15th in points allowed and the Packers 19th.

So...what's the moral to the story?

Passing wins games. Stopping teams from scoring wins games. Rushing the ball successfully is good, but is NOT necessarily intrical to WINNING. Allowing yardage will happen, but the defense MUST make stops when it counts to win games.

Ball control is a fine thing to have, but is not a necessary ingredient to being successful in the NFL. You want to win? You have to be able to score when it matters and stop the other team when it matters. The Lions can score when it matters, not all the time, but did it enough to get themselves into the playoffs. Their biggest single problem was on defense....DEFENSE. Their inability to stop an opposing team from SCORING when the game was on the line....that's what killed them.

I want the Lions to have a more balanced offense. I want them to improve their offensive line. But the fact is, having that won't dramatically improve their chances of winning more than fixing the defense will. And it's all there for you in black and white.

I hope YOU learned something.....


pretty angry post but mostly irrevelant. im not saying we should only pass or only run. the truth is if you depend on only one of those like the lions did, the offense is easier to game plan for and easier to stop. as for the irrelevance of time of possession - come back and tell me you have never seen a team with a good ground ice a game late by eating clock with long drives mostly on the ground? Saints playoff game they beat us 38-22 in TOP, you dont think that takes the offense out of rhythm?

anyway, i look at your top 5 scoring defenses and see that they all have good ground games or at least emphasize the run quite a bit. I also see that Pittsburgh ranked NO 1 in scoring defense yet watched their defense melt down to the tune of being able to withstand what 14 seconds of overtime against a marginal at best Denver offense? Then I see the San Fran defense ranked No 2 but I also watched them give up the lead at home in the playoffs vs the Saints. Patriots 15th ranked scoring defense held up but only bc Baltimore drops a game winning TD and then misses a short kick to go to OT. So yeah, I agree the defense needs to make some stops - but how do you predict ie build that defense? Bal/San Fran/Pitt defenses at 1/2/3 dont hold up but NYG (25th scoring defense) and NE defenses (15th scoring defense) did? What does that say? To me its clear you cant analyze the teams like that but you continued to do so (carefully leaving out the Giants) which is why I say your research is irrelevant. The Lions formula of emphasizing a pass rush is very similar to what the Giants are doing but both teams rank low in scoring defense, the Patriots seem to do it mostly with scheme rather than personnel but get a lot of pressure in different ways and confuse teams into throwing a lot of INTs which isnt all that difft than the Packers.

The Lions defense can pressure the passer, they can come up with big plays in the secondary and they have a vastly improved linebacking group. I agree they can get better at S, CB, and one of the LB spots but there players at those spots are better than the same players on the SuperBowl teams. The Lions offense is completely one dimensional, as Mayhew agreed - which is the point, balance the team. Look at the Lions 1st 4 losses this season, and its pretty the clear the offense lost those games despite the defense doing its part then you get into the part of the season where the defense is completely decimated by injuries and you see they start to really get gashed w/o Delmas, Houston, Berry, Suh, LoJack, WYoung, etc for difft stretches. healthy teams win, but the talent on defense is there, they dont really need much more than some added depth.


February 3rd, 2012, 1:46 am
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Post Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?
I've kinda followed this thread but stayed out of it due to the debate being a little silly IMO.

Legend you unknowing said it all by posting this statement:

Quote:
- which is the point, balance the team


Offesne ranked 4-5th in the league

Defense ranked 23rd or worse.


You said it correctly.

BALANCE THE TEAM

The only exception would be the O-line. great teams are built from the trenches out....that is the only acceptable deviation from the D IMO for this offseason

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February 3rd, 2012, 10:22 am
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