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 Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this? 
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Unless you have Darrelle Revis or Charles Woodson/Champ Bailey in there primes the DE is more valuable. In today's game most No 1 corners are at a disadvantage and only the one or two truly great ones can dominate. id rather have the passrushers and solid corners.

as for last season the lions supposedly made a play for joseph but had to settle for wright


That's why this came to mind. It was before Avril was signed to a franchise tag, so maybe they were trying something similar to my approach. Look at the Texans. They didn't have Mario Williams for 11 games last year, so their pass rush wasn't great unless they blitzed, and they had the #2 defense in the league. The reason is they had Joseph. He's close to a shut-down corner and imagine if we got him. Chris Houston would be a great #2 corner. Our defensive line would still be top 5, and our linebackers do their thing.

Next offseason, DRC and Brent Grimes will be the top FA cornerbacks, and the year after the top CBs aren't much better, which is why they should've done whatever it took to get Joseph. Either way, like mentioned before I trust our management to do what's right.


Mario Williams is a bad example to use. He was in a completely different set of circumstances. His team switched from a 4-3 Defense to a 3-4 defense that left him no longer fitting what they wanted to do defensively. That is not the case with Avril. When you have a DE that fits your defense like a glove and he produces, you DO NOT let them get away. Even if you think you have players that can do the job. If they haven't fully produced yet, you don't KNOW that they will.


July 4th, 2012, 12:07 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.


Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.


I agree with that. That is why I was rather upset with the Lions waiting until the 3rd round before they decided to address the most gaping hole on the team. By that time, all that's left are the 3rd tier players that have 1 great part to their game and 3 holes in their game.

I don't have any problems with the Riley Reif (SP?) pick. But, the Broyles pick drove me insane with anger. I still don't believe he was BPA or a need. He was and is a LUXURY. We could have used that pick to trade up OR down to get a good value on a really good CB. And I believe we would have been far better off if we had done so. You can get really good WR's anywhere in the draft. After the first 2 rounds, your chances of getting a really good/great CB, is slim to none.


July 4th, 2012, 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
Shotty wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.


Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.


I'm not discounting the fact that a good CB can make a big difference. The Jets serve as a good example, but they are the exception to the rule.

If you look at the other defenses you mentioned, most of them also have great pass rushers. You think Carlos Rogers is elite? He was a marginal starter for the Redskins--once Rogers had Justin Smith and Aldon Smith applying pressure, Rogers looked like a star. Ladarius Webb lines up behind last year's defensive player of the year (Suggs). Flowers played behind Tamba Hali, Texans had Mario and Connor Barwin (Barwin was top 10 in sacks last year). I'm not suggesting that these aren't good corners--I'm simply pointing out that good corners don't matter if they aren't playing behind good pass rushers.

Now, the other teams you mentioned...Green Bay, in terms of yardage, was the worst defense in the league last year so I'm not sure why they are on your list. If you want to rip the Lions secondary for how it played in week 17, I can't blame you...but watch the Packers secondary in the same game.

Cleveland's pass defense looks decent on paper until you realize that teams don't bother throwing the ball against them--their offense was so terrible, teams were able to play Cleveland conservatively because the Browns couldn't score enough to keep up. Besides, it's probably not wise to emulate the roster of a 4-12 team. Miami's defense was #25 in yards allowed, #27 in points allowed, and finished with a 6-10 record so I'm not sure why we'd want to emulate them either.

Sure, an upgrade at CB would help the Lions--no question about it. But if getting that CB means losing the top pass rusher, I say "no thanks."


I understand that Avril is becoming a top DE, but you're eluding the problem. Even when healthy, our pass defense struggled. We could have a top 10, hell top 5 defense if we get a TOP cornerback. Even with Avril, Fairley, Suh, and KVB, our defense will struggle. What happens if the defense fails to get pressure on a play? Do you really trust our secondary to stop Andre Johnson on a vertical route? A top CB would solidify our defense and push us into the TRUE Super Bowl contender category, not just another defensive end who could be replaced by one of the ends on the roster or a FA asking for much less money.


I agree. But, we DO NOT have to sacrifice a Pro Bowl quality DE on the alter of improving our secondary in order to accomplish it. Dallas finally realized that their secondary was holding them back. They did what it took to fix the problem in the draft this year. I am confident that by the end of this season, Schwartz and Mayhew will know that they will have to do what it takes to get the top CB in next years draft. Even if they have to trade away our first 3 draft picks to do it.


July 4th, 2012, 12:33 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
This thread wasn't made to complain about the Lions not doing it, or about picking up Joseph in particular.


if thats true you should have considered a difft title and not attributed all of houson's defensive prowess to signing joseph

Quote:
I didn't and still don't see why Cliff Avril is worth $10,000,000, so I was sharing an idea.


its because as you mentioned in your next post that Avril is becoming a top DE

Quote:
I don't know if the Lions pursued him for sure, it was rumored, and there were other top CBs in free agency that year, but what JJ was asking for was the closest to what we paid for Avril's franchise and likely will pay yearly if he's signed to a multi-year deal.


cant know for sure all signs point to the lions having pursued him. avril didnt get paid 10 mill last year when joseph was available so what you are saying is pointless. bc the lions have 10 mill for avril this year doesnt mean they could ve afforded joseph last year. maybe they could have signed brandon carr instead of avril this year - others on this website have made that argument.

Quote:
Lawrence Jackson has showed some promise, and Willie Young complementing him can't hurt.


yes i agree but lo jack is needed to spell KVB. Young has great potential but so far has 3 career sacks and 14 career tackles. lets see a little more production and ability to stay healthy before we rely on them in bigger roles. is that so wrong?

Quote:
Like I said, I know, based off of Fairley playing the 1st quarter of the Saints game in December mostly healthy before re-injuring his foot, he will be a top DT. He absolutely dominated while he was on the field, and against Carl Nicks who is considered one of the best, if not the best, guards.


again you are talking about 1 maybe 2 quarters of football but i agree the potential is there. aside from that there are plenty of question marks surrounding fairley. he will be getting a suspension to start this season bc of drug and alcohol problems and his foot injury isnt such a slam dunk to be a part of his past. i think that foot will flare up from time to time and cost him playing time, games and maybe even keep the lions from giving him more than a rotational type role. we ll only find about the foot injury if fairley can stay clean enough to not end up suspended or in prison

Quote:
Suh is dominant, plain and simple. A DE who could be replaced with little consequences and asks for ridiculous money isn't worth keeping, especially where there is a GLARING problem with another position.


SO you went from Avril being one of the top DEs to someone who could be replaced with little consequence? Im not following, yes I saw the stuff about LoJack and WIllie Young but even when those two backups missed time last year the Lions defense sufferred. So are we to believe that without Avril the lions defense would be fine? Do you really think that? As for the glaring problem with the corner position I ll agree that its definitely a weaker position than the DL. However, the real glaring problem last season was with the depth - not the starters. Houston/Wright/Berry when healthy were solid in 3 WR packages, the real problems emerged when Louis Delmas went down and had to be replaced with Chris Harris (who is now gone) and Don Carey/Alfonso Smith/Brandon McDonald all had to fill in for our top 3 corners. Through week 11, the Lions pass defense was rated 4th in the NFL, week 11 is when Delmas went down and others missed time in the weeks that followed. The depth at safety should be upgraded by either Sean Jones or Erik Coleman being healthy and the corner situation may be weaker in the top 3 but the depth should be better with Bentley/Greenwood/Green coming in to compete with Smith.


Yes, he is one of the top DE's and can be replaced with little consequence. Unless he has an absolutely awesome year in 2012 (15+ sacks), he isn't worth $10 mill. Our pass defense could've been rated #1, but you saw the issues. Against the Bears, Cutler found open guys repeatedly while being chased on almost every play. That's where the real #1 corner comes in. Brandon Carr wouldn't have been that guy, which is why I don't think they even looked far into aquiring him. The things I'm approaching are basically because I don't see Avril getting too much better in 2012, and the odds of Aaron Berry or one of the CBs drafted stepping up to take the #1 spot and really challenge #1 receivers is not too high. Like I said, Fairley will be a star, so signing Avril to a franchise tag, realizing 2 great DTs and 3 solid DEs is enough to have a top 5 defensive line, and letting him go to make the defense one of the best by getting the top CB available (which will probably be Brent Grimes) will be the best idea. That way our defense could stop offenses like the Saints/Packers often, and our offense could do the rest. Imagine that team.

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July 4th, 2012, 2:11 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
BillySims wrote:
Shotty wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
Shotty wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.


Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.


I'm not discounting the fact that a good CB can make a big difference. The Jets serve as a good example, but they are the exception to the rule.

If you look at the other defenses you mentioned, most of them also have great pass rushers. You think Carlos Rogers is elite? He was a marginal starter for the Redskins--once Rogers had Justin Smith and Aldon Smith applying pressure, Rogers looked like a star. Ladarius Webb lines up behind last year's defensive player of the year (Suggs). Flowers played behind Tamba Hali, Texans had Mario and Connor Barwin (Barwin was top 10 in sacks last year). I'm not suggesting that these aren't good corners--I'm simply pointing out that good corners don't matter if they aren't playing behind good pass rushers.

Now, the other teams you mentioned...Green Bay, in terms of yardage, was the worst defense in the league last year so I'm not sure why they are on your list. If you want to rip the Lions secondary for how it played in week 17, I can't blame you...but watch the Packers secondary in the same game.

Cleveland's pass defense looks decent on paper until you realize that teams don't bother throwing the ball against them--their offense was so terrible, teams were able to play Cleveland conservatively because the Browns couldn't score enough to keep up. Besides, it's probably not wise to emulate the roster of a 4-12 team. Miami's defense was #25 in yards allowed, #27 in points allowed, and finished with a 6-10 record so I'm not sure why we'd want to emulate them either.

Sure, an upgrade at CB would help the Lions--no question about it. But if getting that CB means losing the top pass rusher, I say "no thanks."


I understand that Avril is becoming a top DE, but you're eluding the problem. Even when healthy, our pass defense struggled. We could have a top 10, hell top 5 defense if we get a TOP cornerback. Even with Avril, Fairley, Suh, and KVB, our defense will struggle. What happens if the defense fails to get pressure on a play? Do you really trust our secondary to stop Andre Johnson on a vertical route? A top CB would solidify our defense and push us into the TRUE Super Bowl contender category, not just another defensive end who could be replaced by one of the ends on the roster or a FA asking for much less money.


I agree. But, we DO NOT have to sacrifice a Pro Bowl quality DE on the alter of improving our secondary in order to accomplish it. Dallas finally realized that their secondary was holding them back. They did what it took to fix the problem in the draft this year. I am confident that by the end of this season, Schwartz and Mayhew will know that they will have to do what it takes to get the top CB in next years draft. Even if they have to trade away our first 3 draft picks to do it.


I hope that's true, and that wouldn't be a bad idea. Getting that CB is what WILL get us over the hump and make us favorites against most teams, and like you said, I trust them to do what they need to do to improve the team. David Amerson looks like the best corner coming out of the 2013 Draft, right next to Jonathan Banks. If they did get that corner, they could start focusing mainly on depth, something they haven't done in a long time.

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July 4th, 2012, 2:22 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Quote:
Yes, he is one of the top DE's and can be replaced with little consequence.


At times Willie Young and Lawrence Jackson missed time last season. There was consequence. Unless you think Everette Brown = Cliff Avril than this is a baseless statement you are making.

Quote:
Unless he has an absolutely awesome year in 2012 (15+ sacks), he isn't worth $10 mill.


Well I think if he has a 10+ sack season he ll get that kinda money. If he isnt productive he ll get a lesser long term deal 6-8 mill range. This is why the franchise tag exists. If Willie Young or LoJack show they can be more dependable than they have been the Lions might be inclined to move on without Avril and draft another young DE or see if Ronnell Lewis can develop.

Quote:
Our pass defense could've been rated #1, but you saw the issues. Against the Bears, Cutler found open guys repeatedly while being chased on almost every play. That's where the real #1 corner comes in.


are you talking about the MNF game? I think everyone can agree that it was an amazing performance by Cutler to keep some plays alive but the Lions won the game and allowed him only 249 yards and only 13 points. Ill take that in today's NFL.

Quote:
Brandon Carr wouldn't have been that guy, which is why I don't think they even looked far into aquiring him. The things I'm approaching are basically because I don't see Avril getting too much better in 2012, and the odds of Aaron Berry or one of the CBs drafted stepping up to take the #1 spot and really challenge #1 receivers is not too high.


Well, we ll see how Avril does this year - he doesnt really need to be better. A season close to his 2011 performance will get him what he wants. I dont see Aaron Berry as a No 1 corner but I see him as someone capable of being in a teams top 3 corners and again I think unless you have that rare player who can just be left on an island like Revis/Bailey/Deion Sanders of old than you need to have solid depth at both CB and S bc you arent going to be in man a whole lot. The Lions defense is predicated on getting pressure with the front four, not pass blitzing very often and playing zone coverage in the secondary. You dont have to have the three best corners in the world with that system but you need to make sure you get the pressure up front first and foremost.


Quote:
Like I said, Fairley will be a star, so signing Avril to a franchise tag, realizing 2 great DTs and 3 solid DEs is enough to have a top 5 defensive line, and letting him go to make the defense one of the best by getting the top CB available (which will probably be Brent Grimes) will be the best idea. That way our defense could stop offenses like the Saints/Packers often, and our offense could do the rest. Imagine that team.


With Fairley you are ignoring obvious question marks around him that if you were the real General Manager would keep you up all night and not allow you to pencil him in to a major role just yet. I love Fairley's talent - I dont love the DUIs and marijuana arrests, and I know that the foot injury isnt something that just disappears. Looking into the Lions future at DL - I see them keeping Willie Young, not sure how much they d invest into Lawrence Jackson, I see them eventually keeping Avril, I see KVB finish his contract but not staying longer than that, Corey Williams walking when his contract expires, Sammie Hill getting a 2-3 yr deal after this season to stay in the rotation, Suh locked up and Im not sure they keep Nick Fairley. To me if he can piece together some productive stretches I trade him, if he gets hurt or suspended again the Lions are stuck with him and there will be no takers. I see the Lions grabbing at least one early DL (1st 3 rounds) in the next two drafts.


July 4th, 2012, 6:05 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
Yes, he is one of the top DE's and can be replaced with little consequence.


At times Willie Young and Lawrence Jackson missed time last season. There was consequence. Unless you think Everette Brown = Cliff Avril than this is a baseless statement you are making.

Quote:
Unless he has an absolutely awesome year in 2012 (15+ sacks), he isn't worth $10 mill.


Well I think if he has a 10+ sack season he ll get that kinda money. If he isnt productive he ll get a lesser long term deal 6-8 mill range. This is why the franchise tag exists. If Willie Young or LoJack show they can be more dependable than they have been the Lions might be inclined to move on without Avril and draft another young DE or see if Ronnell Lewis can develop.

Quote:
Our pass defense could've been rated #1, but you saw the issues. Against the Bears, Cutler found open guys repeatedly while being chased on almost every play. That's where the real #1 corner comes in.


are you talking about the MNF game? I think everyone can agree that it was an amazing performance by Cutler to keep some plays alive but the Lions won the game and allowed him only 249 yards and only 13 points. Ill take that in today's NFL.

Quote:
Brandon Carr wouldn't have been that guy, which is why I don't think they even looked far into aquiring him. The things I'm approaching are basically because I don't see Avril getting too much better in 2012, and the odds of Aaron Berry or one of the CBs drafted stepping up to take the #1 spot and really challenge #1 receivers is not too high.


Well, we ll see how Avril does this year - he doesnt really need to be better. A season close to his 2011 performance will get him what he wants. I dont see Aaron Berry as a No 1 corner but I see him as someone capable of being in a teams top 3 corners and again I think unless you have that rare player who can just be left on an island like Revis/Bailey/Deion Sanders of old than you need to have solid depth at both CB and S bc you arent going to be in man a whole lot. The Lions defense is predicated on getting pressure with the front four, not pass blitzing very often and playing zone coverage in the secondary. You dont have to have the three best corners in the world with that system but you need to make sure you get the pressure up front first and foremost.


Quote:
Like I said, Fairley will be a star, so signing Avril to a franchise tag, realizing 2 great DTs and 3 solid DEs is enough to have a top 5 defensive line, and letting him go to make the defense one of the best by getting the top CB available (which will probably be Brent Grimes) will be the best idea. That way our defense could stop offenses like the Saints/Packers often, and our offense could do the rest. Imagine that team.


With Fairley you are ignoring obvious question marks around him that if you were the real General Manager would keep you up all night and not allow you to pencil him in to a major role just yet. I love Fairley's talent - I dont love the DUIs and marijuana arrests, and I know that the foot injury isnt something that just disappears. Looking into the Lions future at DL - I see them keeping Willie Young, not sure how much they d invest into Lawrence Jackson, I see them eventually keeping Avril, I see KVB finish his contract but not staying longer than that, Corey Williams walking when his contract expires, Sammie Hill getting a 2-3 yr deal after this season to stay in the rotation, Suh locked up and Im not sure they keep Nick Fairley. To me if he can piece together some productive stretches I trade him, if he gets hurt or suspended again the Lions are stuck with him and there will be no takers. I see the Lions grabbing at least one early DL (1st 3 rounds) in the next two drafts.


I understand the significance of the broken foot, but he wasn't even 80% when he showed promise vs the Saints, and at 100% he'll be dominant. You won't see me predict much, but this is a bold prediction. You do have a point though, if he continues making stupid mistakes and Avril is already off the roster, we're in trouble, but recently I read about Fairley going to the rookie symposium, in fact it was the AFC one since he missed the NFC one and personally requested to go to it. That shows his respect for the game and hopefully his will to change. I personally don't think he'll be arrested again. I hope Corey Williams isn't in Detroit for too long. He's getting $5 mill/year right now, so a 2nd-3rd round DT could take his place as the 2nd-3rd DT in the rotation. There's no problem taking a DT within the next 2-3 years in those rounds, but preferably not the 1st. The Lions don't have many weaknesses anymore so depth and filling in the few remaining holes will be taken care of in the draft for the most part.

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July 4th, 2012, 7:49 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
Yes, he is one of the top DE's and can be replaced with little consequence.


At times Willie Young and Lawrence Jackson missed time last season. There was consequence. Unless you think Everette Brown = Cliff Avril than this is a baseless statement you are making.

Quote:
Unless he has an absolutely awesome year in 2012 (15+ sacks), he isn't worth $10 mill.


Well I think if he has a 10+ sack season he ll get that kinda money. If he isnt productive he ll get a lesser long term deal 6-8 mill range. This is why the franchise tag exists. If Willie Young or LoJack show they can be more dependable than they have been the Lions might be inclined to move on without Avril and draft another young DE or see if Ronnell Lewis can develop.

Quote:
Our pass defense could've been rated #1, but you saw the issues. Against the Bears, Cutler found open guys repeatedly while being chased on almost every play. That's where the real #1 corner comes in.


are you talking about the MNF game? I think everyone can agree that it was an amazing performance by Cutler to keep some plays alive but the Lions won the game and allowed him only 249 yards and only 13 points. Ill take that in today's NFL.

Quote:
Brandon Carr wouldn't have been that guy, which is why I don't think they even looked far into aquiring him. The things I'm approaching are basically because I don't see Avril getting too much better in 2012, and the odds of Aaron Berry or one of the CBs drafted stepping up to take the #1 spot and really challenge #1 receivers is not too high.


Well, we ll see how Avril does this year - he doesnt really need to be better. A season close to his 2011 performance will get him what he wants. I dont see Aaron Berry as a No 1 corner but I see him as someone capable of being in a teams top 3 corners and again I think unless you have that rare player who can just be left on an island like Revis/Bailey/Deion Sanders of old than you need to have solid depth at both CB and S bc you arent going to be in man a whole lot. The Lions defense is predicated on getting pressure with the front four, not pass blitzing very often and playing zone coverage in the secondary. You dont have to have the three best corners in the world with that system but you need to make sure you get the pressure up front first and foremost.


Quote:
Like I said, Fairley will be a star, so signing Avril to a franchise tag, realizing 2 great DTs and 3 solid DEs is enough to have a top 5 defensive line, and letting him go to make the defense one of the best by getting the top CB available (which will probably be Brent Grimes) will be the best idea. That way our defense could stop offenses like the Saints/Packers often, and our offense could do the rest. Imagine that team.


With Fairley you are ignoring obvious question marks around him that if you were the real General Manager would keep you up all night and not allow you to pencil him in to a major role just yet. I love Fairley's talent - I dont love the DUIs and marijuana arrests, and I know that the foot injury isnt something that just disappears. Looking into the Lions future at DL - I see them keeping Willie Young, not sure how much they d invest into Lawrence Jackson, I see them eventually keeping Avril, I see KVB finish his contract but not staying longer than that, Corey Williams walking when his contract expires, Sammie Hill getting a 2-3 yr deal after this season to stay in the rotation, Suh locked up and Im not sure they keep Nick Fairley. To me if he can piece together some productive stretches I trade him, if he gets hurt or suspended again the Lions are stuck with him and there will be no takers. I see the Lions grabbing at least one early DL (1st 3 rounds) in the next two drafts.



Legend, I have to say that I generally agree with the DL before CB philosohpy, but our defensive secondary is so bad that SOMEONE is always open SOMEWHERE and the Qbs can generally find them. The Saints game was yet another example of this, as well as GB. We need a secondary that can at least somewhat stick with their man or properly play their zone. IMO our failure to get Tracy Porter was nothing short of a tragedy last off-season (same is true for Michael Bush).


July 6th, 2012, 12:32 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
Yes, he is one of the top DE's and can be replaced with little consequence.


At times Willie Young and Lawrence Jackson missed time last season. There was consequence. Unless you think Everette Brown = Cliff Avril than this is a baseless statement you are making.

Quote:
Unless he has an absolutely awesome year in 2012 (15+ sacks), he isn't worth $10 mill.


Well I think if he has a 10+ sack season he ll get that kinda money. If he isnt productive he ll get a lesser long term deal 6-8 mill range. This is why the franchise tag exists. If Willie Young or LoJack show they can be more dependable than they have been the Lions might be inclined to move on without Avril and draft another young DE or see if Ronnell Lewis can develop.

Quote:
Our pass defense could've been rated #1, but you saw the issues. Against the Bears, Cutler found open guys repeatedly while being chased on almost every play. That's where the real #1 corner comes in.


are you talking about the MNF game? I think everyone can agree that it was an amazing performance by Cutler to keep some plays alive but the Lions won the game and allowed him only 249 yards and only 13 points. Ill take that in today's NFL.

Quote:
Brandon Carr wouldn't have been that guy, which is why I don't think they even looked far into aquiring him. The things I'm approaching are basically because I don't see Avril getting too much better in 2012, and the odds of Aaron Berry or one of the CBs drafted stepping up to take the #1 spot and really challenge #1 receivers is not too high.


Well, we ll see how Avril does this year - he doesnt really need to be better. A season close to his 2011 performance will get him what he wants. I dont see Aaron Berry as a No 1 corner but I see him as someone capable of being in a teams top 3 corners and again I think unless you have that rare player who can just be left on an island like Revis/Bailey/Deion Sanders of old than you need to have solid depth at both CB and S bc you arent going to be in man a whole lot. The Lions defense is predicated on getting pressure with the front four, not pass blitzing very often and playing zone coverage in the secondary. You dont have to have the three best corners in the world with that system but you need to make sure you get the pressure up front first and foremost.


Quote:
Like I said, Fairley will be a star, so signing Avril to a franchise tag, realizing 2 great DTs and 3 solid DEs is enough to have a top 5 defensive line, and letting him go to make the defense one of the best by getting the top CB available (which will probably be Brent Grimes) will be the best idea. That way our defense could stop offenses like the Saints/Packers often, and our offense could do the rest. Imagine that team.


With Fairley you are ignoring obvious question marks around him that if you were the real General Manager would keep you up all night and not allow you to pencil him in to a major role just yet. I love Fairley's talent - I dont love the DUIs and marijuana arrests, and I know that the foot injury isnt something that just disappears. Looking into the Lions future at DL - I see them keeping Willie Young, not sure how much they d invest into Lawrence Jackson, I see them eventually keeping Avril, I see KVB finish his contract but not staying longer than that, Corey Williams walking when his contract expires, Sammie Hill getting a 2-3 yr deal after this season to stay in the rotation, Suh locked up and Im not sure they keep Nick Fairley. To me if he can piece together some productive stretches I trade him, if he gets hurt or suspended again the Lions are stuck with him and there will be no takers. I see the Lions grabbing at least one early DL (1st 3 rounds) in the next two drafts.



Legend, I have to say that I generally agree with the DL before CB philosohpy, but our defensive secondary is so bad that SOMEONE is always open SOMEWHERE and the Qbs can generally find them. The Saints game was yet another example of this, as well as GB. We need a secondary that can at least somewhat stick with their man or properly play their zone. IMO our failure to get Tracy Porter was nothing short of a tragedy last off-season (same is true for Michael Bush).


Receivers got open WAY more often when the injuries happened in the Thanksgiving game. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtZmC0j ... re=related) at 1:22:32, it's a perfect illustration of what happens when you have an inexperienced person filling in at safety. I personally don't think the Lions should invest in anyone other than a near-shutdown corner whether it's in the draft or free agency. If they got that guy the scheme they use now would be much more effective or they could switch to a basic 4-3 defense. Either way they need a very good corner to make their defense a force to be reckoned with and make them an elite team.

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July 6th, 2012, 1:47 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Good find Shotty. Just one of several occasions where our safeties suck, but that was a BIG one.

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July 6th, 2012, 12:13 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
Good find Shotty. Just one of several occasions where our safeties suck, but that was a BIG one.


I just looked it up, and that was Chris Harris, the guy we signed from Chicago and also burned twice against Chicago on MNF. I honestly don't think Delmas would've fallen for that because I rarely see him bite unless he's almost 100% sure it's a run. He was the leader of our secondary. With Nick Fairley back, we'll see how the secondary will hold up.

BTW, would you guys rather sign a FA cornerback or get the best one in the draft by trading up?

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July 6th, 2012, 12:43 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Who are the great corners that play for the Steelers and Ravens?

I don't know, but they have KILLER safeties, and their pass defense is always top notch. Who were the corners for the Colts when they won the Super Bowl? No idea, but I know that when Sanders was healthy, they rocked on defense.

Safeties > Corners imo.

Sure, Carlos Rogers was good for us, but Dashon Goldson was even better imo. Ball-hawking safety that was also hard hitting and all over the field. Just my opinion based on observation, not proven at all.

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July 6th, 2012, 12:46 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
49ers wrote:
Who are the great corners that play for the Steelers and Ravens?

I don't know, but they have KILLER safeties, and their pass defense is always top notch. Who were the corners for the Colts when they won the Super Bowl? No idea, but I know that when Sanders was healthy, they rocked on defense.

Safeties > Corners imo.

Sure, Carlos Rogers was good for us, but Dashon Goldson was even better imo. Ball-hawking safety that was also hard hitting and all over the field. Just my opinion based on observation, not proven at all.


Understandable, but as said we did have a top 10 pass defense before the injuries. Amari Speivey is only getting better over time and Louis Delmas is VERY good. Hard hitter, always running full speed, and he's gotten much better over time at recognizing plays. When he got injured, the whole secondary seemed lost. You didn't see many deep throws on our defense, except for when we had 3rd stringers starting. Now that there won't be many top FA cornerbacks very soon, I hope the Lions trade up, even if it's multiple picks and 1 or 2 from next year's draft, to get the best cornerback in the draft, David Amerson. He looks very polished for a college player and had 13 interceptions in 2011.

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July 6th, 2012, 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Good find Shotty. Just one of several occasions where our safeties suck, but that was a BIG one.


I just looked it up, and that was Chris Harris, the guy we signed from Chicago and also burned twice against Chicago on MNF. I honestly don't think Delmas would've fallen for that because I rarely see him bite unless he's almost 100% sure it's a run. He was the leader of our secondary. With Nick Fairley back, we'll see how the secondary will hold up.

BTW, would you guys rather sign a FA cornerback or get the best one in the draft by trading up?


I hate Delmas, so you won't see him catching any praise from me.

As to FA or draft, I'd rather we sign a FA CB. At least you know what you're getting. Like I said, I think the greatest travesty of last offseason was not signing Tracy Porter. For $2.5 million we could have gotten the best or second best CB on this team, and added some much needed depth. Too many drafted CBs flat out bust, even early ones, and its understandable. All positions have to adapt to the speed of the game and new schemes, but CBs have vast changes in rules to get use to as well. Some seem to never "get it" once they get into the NFL.


July 6th, 2012, 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Shotty wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Good find Shotty. Just one of several occasions where our safeties suck, but that was a BIG one.


I just looked it up, and that was Chris Harris, the guy we signed from Chicago and also burned twice against Chicago on MNF. I honestly don't think Delmas would've fallen for that because I rarely see him bite unless he's almost 100% sure it's a run. He was the leader of our secondary. With Nick Fairley back, we'll see how the secondary will hold up.

BTW, would you guys rather sign a FA cornerback or get the best one in the draft by trading up?


I hate Delmas, so you won't see him catching any praise from me.

As to FA or draft, I'd rather we sign a FA CB. At least you know what you're getting. Like I said, I think the greatest travesty of last offseason was not signing Tracy Porter. For $2.5 million we could have gotten the best or second best CB on this team, and added some much needed depth. Too many drafted CBs flat out bust, even early ones, and its understandable. All positions have to adapt to the speed of the game and new schemes, but CBs have vast changes in rules to get use to as well. Some seem to never "get it" once they get into the NFL.


The reason I say Porter wouldn't be a great pick-up is because the sooner we get someone for the #1 corner spot, which isn't and shouldn't be Porter, we'll be basically set as a team and we need to conserve as much cap space as possible. Schwartz was said to be trying hard to move up for Gillmore or Kirkpatrick this year and last year for Patrick Peterson, so it's clear he has his sights set on getting that #1 guy in the draft, which makes sense since the Lions are tight on cap space. I hope someone like Patrick Peterson steps up this year and the Lions do what they have to do to get him. I hope it can happen because the same exact roster we have right now + the cornerback will make us the team to beat.

I just want this team to be the best it possibly can, which is achievable now. Just a few more pieces to the team and we'll be among the top teams for years to come.

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July 6th, 2012, 2:17 pm
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