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 Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this? 
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
49ers wrote:
Who are the great corners that play for the Steelers and Ravens?

I don't know, but they have KILLER safeties, and their pass defense is always top notch. Who were the corners for the Colts when they won the Super Bowl? No idea, but I know that when Sanders was healthy, they rocked on defense.

Safeties > Corners imo.

Sure, Carlos Rogers was good for us, but Dashon Goldson was even better imo. Ball-hawking safety that was also hard hitting and all over the field. Just my opinion based on observation, not proven at all.


Understandable, but as said we did have a top 10 pass defense before the injuries. Amari Speivey is only getting better over time and Louis Delmas is VERY good. Hard hitter, always running full speed, and he's gotten much better over time at recognizing plays. When he got injured, the whole secondary seemed lost. You didn't see many deep throws on our defense, except for when we had 3rd stringers starting. Now that there won't be many top FA cornerbacks very soon, I hope the Lions trade up, even if it's multiple picks and 1 or 2 from next year's draft, to get the best cornerback in the draft, David Amerson. He looks very polished for a college player and had 13 interceptions in 2011.


I definetly would not call Delmas "VERY good". I think hes above average, but other than his rookie season what has he really done? Hes flashy, sure. But wheres the production?

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July 6th, 2012, 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
I hope someone like Patrick Peterson steps up this year and the Lions do what they have to do to get him.


There is NO way the Lions would try and trade for Peterson, and no way Arizona will want to trade him.

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July 6th, 2012, 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Delmas was our secondary's leader. I honestly can't remember any successful deep throws when he was on the field. If he improves his tackle angles and makes the tackles he needs to make, he'll be good.

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July 6th, 2012, 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
Shotty wrote:
I hope someone like Patrick Peterson steps up this year and the Lions do what they have to do to get him.


There is NO way the Lions would try and trade for Peterson, and no way Arizona will want to trade him.


Maybe they thought he would go later than he did? They were said to have offered Arizona their 1st, 2nd, and 4th round picks for the #6 pick.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110504/S ... -NFL-draft

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July 6th, 2012, 3:15 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Shotty wrote:
I hope someone like Patrick Peterson steps up this year and the Lions do what they have to do to get him.


There is NO way the Lions would try and trade for Peterson, and no way Arizona will want to trade him.


Maybe they thought he would go later than he did? They were said to have offered Arizona their 1st, 2nd, and 4th round picks for the #6 pick.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110504/S ... -NFL-draft


No i agree that they TRIED to get him in the 2011 Draft, but theres no way they try to trade for him now or during the season.

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July 6th, 2012, 3:20 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.

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July 6th, 2012, 4:23 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
m2karateman wrote:
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.


Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.

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July 6th, 2012, 4:55 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Quote:
Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.


well i think its a combo of mostly mayhew and schwartz. i think their general plan is to have 2 solid zone corners and a guy who mans well on the slot type WRs and have there star players on the DL. they ve made it clear they want 8 quality DL. as for the corners, they just drafted 3 of them. of that group i think they hope at least one becomes a starter and get at least one of the other two to become a nickel or dime guy. i suspect they like Chris Houston but dont really want to give him a contract similar to what Eric Wright got. In 2013 there CB situation might be something like Berry/Greenwood with Bentley as the slot guy. If GReenwood doesnt come along they might have to use a 2nd rder on a rookie


July 6th, 2012, 7:28 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.


Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.



By no means am I being mean here Shotty, but your last few posts make it sound like you are unaware that the Draft has already happened and that Free Agency has been going on lol. You make some very valid points though.

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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
Shotty wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.


Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.



By no means am I being mean here Shotty, but your last few posts make it sound like you are unaware that the Draft has already happened and that Free Agency has been going on lol. You make some very valid points though.


No, I'm well aware. I'm thinking ahead to the 2013 free agency and draft.

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July 7th, 2012, 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.


Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.


I think Schwartz doesn't really value the cornerback position that much, and as such he doesn't feel a need to address it with high draft picks unless someone outstanding is on the table for him. Mayhew, Lewand and Schwartz aren't overspending on any player, in my opinion. They set their limits, and if the price goes beyond it they simply pull their offer. I think it's a good approach to handling any free agent, regardless of position. With the picks they made in April, along with the signing of Jacob Lacey I think they've added some development and depth players. I honestly believe Gunner and Schwartz feel Aaron Berry is their other starter. I can't say I agree, but I'm not going to be overly concerned about it right now. My bigger concern is the safety spots. Delmas is good, but has his issues. He needs to quit being a hitter and start being a tackler. But Spievey is the bigger issue. If he doesn't step up his game, the Lions will struggle in the secondary again. They don't really have another starting quality safety.

As for Avril and his contract, the Lions will have him in 2012, and that's all that they need to be worried about right now. If he plays on the tender offer and wants to go into free agency in 2013, so be it. The Lions can cover his absence.

Right now, I see our biggest needs in 2013 being not at CB or DE or even safety, but still on the offensive side of the ball, specifically on the offensive line. Raiola, Peterman and Cherilus need to be replaced. We have our future LT, so Backus is covered. I have to admit, I'm still bothered by the fact the Lions passed on Peter Konz in the second round. I think it was a mistake to go for the potential of Ryan Broyles, when Konz could have been our future at the pivot.

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July 8th, 2012, 10:01 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
m2karateman wrote:
Shotty wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The idea of signing Jonathan Joseph and letting Cliff Avril go would have been intriguing, but I don't think it would have fixed the defense here in Detroit. True, we would have had a clear cut #1 corner, and a really good #2 corner in Chris Houston. But the fact is that a defense must be strong up the middle before you concern yourself with the outside. Besides which, if you ask any head coach or defensive coordinator, active or retired, what they would want more, a cover corner or a pass rusher, the great majority of them would take the pass rusher.

A corner can only shut down a portion of the field....and it is NOT half. That's quite ridiculous to think. The best cover corners take away one man, or maybe a third of the field in a zone situation. But any QB in the league will complete a pass against ANY corner in the league if given enough time to do so. I don't care who the receiver is going against that corner. Give that QB enough time, and the pass is completed. Take away the QBs time, and the situation changes drastically.

Last season the Lions were victimized when their safety situation went down hill due to injuries and flat out poor play by the safeties. Spievey got worse as the season rolled on. And without Delmas next to him you could see his confidence go immediately down hill. There are teams with so-so corners that do better in pass coverage than the Lions. It has to do with their pass rush, and with their safeties.

All that said, I have been on the bandwagon for a while for the Lions to get a quality corner, because they do have a place and say in just how good the defense is, both against the run and pass. But up and until the Lions get a more consistent pass rush and also have some quality safety play, they could have two stellar corners in the game and it won't make too much difference. Teams can take corners out of the game, quite easily, with motion and multiple receiver sets. Give that QB time, and your troubles begin.


Very good point. How do you see Schwartz going about this? I think and hope he will use the draft for cornerbacks. FA cornerbacks are just too expensive and trading 2-3 additional draft picks to move up for the best cornerback available, who's contract will likely be worth less than a proven FA would probably be the only way we could afford our #1 corner.


I think Schwartz doesn't really value the cornerback position that much, and as such he doesn't feel a need to address it with high draft picks unless someone outstanding is on the table for him. Mayhew, Lewand and Schwartz aren't overspending on any player, in my opinion. They set their limits, and if the price goes beyond it they simply pull their offer. I think it's a good approach to handling any free agent, regardless of position. With the picks they made in April, along with the signing of Jacob Lacey I think they've added some development and depth players. I honestly believe Gunner and Schwartz feel Aaron Berry is their other starter. I can't say I agree, but I'm not going to be overly concerned about it right now. My bigger concern is the safety spots. Delmas is good, but has his issues. He needs to quit being a hitter and start being a tackler. But Spievey is the bigger issue. If he doesn't step up his game, the Lions will struggle in the secondary again. They don't really have another starting quality safety.

As for Avril and his contract, the Lions will have him in 2012, and that's all that they need to be worried about right now. If he plays on the tender offer and wants to go into free agency in 2013, so be it. The Lions can cover his absence.

Right now, I see our biggest needs in 2013 being not at CB or DE or even safety, but still on the offensive side of the ball, specifically on the offensive line. Raiola, Peterman and Cherilus need to be replaced. We have our future LT, so Backus is covered. I have to admit, I'm still bothered by the fact the Lions passed on Peter Konz in the second round. I think it was a mistake to go for the potential of Ryan Broyles, when Konz could have been our future at the pivot.


Good points. The offensive line does need some help, and I hope OL are taken in the first round occasionally but heavily in later rounds to get guys and try to develop them. Jahri Evans and Carl Nicks were both taken late and turned out to be two of the top guards. Thinking about it, our O-line was pretty bad at times last year, notably against the 49ers, and when it looked solid it was usually because a runningback was blocking.

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July 8th, 2012, 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Deadline is in 2 days. If Avril doesn't sign and sits out of some games to start the season line Vincent Jackson did last year, I think he should be traded to the Patriots and taken with the 1st round pick we get from them or our 2nd round pick.

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July 14th, 2012, 1:30 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
Deadline is in 2 days. If Avril doesn't sign and sits out of some games to start the season line Vincent Jackson did last year, I think he should be traded to the Patriots and taken with the 1st round pick we get from them or our 2nd round pick.


Im game. I like Avril, but from what I've seen from Young, I really like him too and think he can turn into the same pass rusher if not maybe even better.

I think Avril should just sign his dang tender, play hard this year and EARN a big contract. I dont think 11 sacks or whatever he got is something HUGE to put on his resume for a monster contract.

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July 14th, 2012, 7:29 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Quote:
Im game. I like Avril, but from what I've seen from Young, I really like him too and think he can turn into the same pass rusher if not maybe even better.


I like Wille Young too but he is older than Avril and has a total of 3 career sacks. Pick any one of Avril's seasons and it is statistically superior in every way to Young's career. Would you replace Avril with the 22 yo version of Avril and expect the Lions defense to not have any drop off? Well Young at 26/27 even though he looks like a late bloomer type, has some speed and is figuring out the position hasnt been as good as Avril at age 22 yet. Just bc the players look similar doesnt mean Young can easily replace and exceed Avril.

Quote:
I think Avril should just sign his dang tender, play hard this year and EARN a big contract. I dont think 11 sacks or whatever he got is something HUGE to put on his resume for a monster contract.


I agree that Avril will probably end up signing the tender and play for $10 mill, a huge raise from his previous season's salary but I dont like the way you are saying it. All reports on Avril say that he is negotiating in good faith, attending teammates charity functions/childrens camps, working out nearby in the area, and speaking highly of his teammates in the media. Your words seem to indicate you feel otherwise and you are downplaying if not belittling his performance up to this point.

Dont forget he also had 6 forced fumbles, 3 fumble recoveries (both 2nd in NFL), an interception, 2 touchdowns to go with his 11 sacks last season. Statistically he was right there probably slightly better than Julius Peppers ($14 mill/yr and age 32). Trent Cole and Tamba Hali had similar career tracks as Avril and are around $12 mill/year. Charles Johnson got 6yr/72 mill at a point when he didnt have Avril's production (21 career sacks vs Avrils 30 sacks). Im not saying Avril is better than those players and he probably isnt but reports say he is asking for less than what was given on those deals. The point is that Avril's asking price isnt such a "monster" relative to those deals. If he does better than 2011 playing on a tender, he'll get more than what he s asking for right now but it probably will be somewhere else. Unless he s significantly worse the Lions probably are not going to save a lot of money by trying to wait and sign him long term after next season. The advantage the Lions have in using the franchise on him this year is that they get to see what comes of Willie s Young and Lawrence Jackson's development, how much will KVB and Corey Williams decline?, are Nick Fairley and Ndamukong Suh going to straighten things out and focus on football? Depending on those answers they might not need Avril or they might be desperate for him a year from now.


July 14th, 2012, 9:49 am
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