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 Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this? 
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
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Im game. I like Avril, but from what I've seen from Young, I really like him too and think he can turn into the same pass rusher if not maybe even better.


I like Wille Young too but he is older than Avril and has a total of 3 career sacks. Pick any one of Avril's seasons and it is statistically superior in every way to Young's career. Would you replace Avril with the 22 yo version of Avril and expect the Lions defense to not have any drop off? Well Young at 26/27 even though he looks like a late bloomer type, has some speed and is figuring out the position hasnt been as good as Avril at age 22 yet. Just bc the players look similar doesnt mean Young can easily replace and exceed Avril.

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I think Avril should just sign his dang tender, play hard this year and EARN a big contract. I dont think 11 sacks or whatever he got is something HUGE to put on his resume for a monster contract.


I agree that Avril will probably end up signing the tender and play for $10 mill, a huge raise from his previous season's salary but I dont like the way you are saying it. All reports on Avril say that he is negotiating in good faith, attending teammates charity functions/childrens camps, working out nearby in the area, and speaking highly of his teammates in the media. Your words seem to indicate you feel otherwise and you are downplaying if not belittling his performance up to this point.

Dont forget he also had 6 forced fumbles, 3 fumble recoveries (both 2nd in NFL), an interception, 2 touchdowns to go with his 11 sacks last season. Statistically he was right there probably slightly better than Julius Peppers ($14 mill/yr and age 32). Trent Cole and Tamba Hali had similar career tracks as Avril and are around $12 mill/year. Charles Johnson got 6yr/72 mill at a point when he didnt have Avril's production (21 career sacks vs Avrils 30 sacks). Im not saying Avril is better than those players and he probably isnt but reports say he is asking for less than what was given on those deals. The point is that Avril's asking price isnt such a "monster" relative to those deals. If he does better than 2011 playing on a tender, he'll get more than what he s asking for right now but it probably will be somewhere else. Unless he s significantly worse the Lions probably are not going to save a lot of money by trying to wait and sign him long term after next season. The advantage the Lions have in using the franchise on him this year is that they get to see what comes of Willie s Young and Lawrence Jackson's development, how much will KVB and Corey Williams decline?, are Nick Fairley and Ndamukong Suh going to straighten things out and focus on football? Depending on those answers they might not need Avril or they might be desperate for him a year from now.


That's what I truly hope happens. 11 sacks is good, but not great when you have Suh making things easy, let alone when we'll have Fairley. Those 2 will make it simple for the DEs to get in the backfield. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnFQmvzDwY0) , at 1:04 he gets a sack, you see Suh in the right corner getting double teamed. At 1:09 he bursts through the line and gets a FF, watch Suh double teamed. At 1:31 he gets a sack and nearly a FF, watch Suh being double teamed. At 1:43, another sack, and guess what's happening to Suh?

My point is that it doesn't require a great DE to get those kinds of numbers on our D-line. The DTs will, for years to come, make it simple. Vanden Bosch is only asking for $5 mill a year and is a great locker room presence, so that's why you've never heard me complain about him. A franchise tag for Avril is the best choice, and if he doesn't get 15+ sacks in 2012, let him go. Another year of experience for the backup DEs and I'm sure one of them or maybe even Ronnell Lewis can step up and take the spot and fill in nicely, while we get a cornerback and make our defense THAT much better.

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July 14th, 2012, 1:01 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
but I dont like the way you are saying it. All reports on Avril say that he is negotiating in good faith, attending teammates charity functions/childrens camps, working out nearby in the area, and speaking highly of his teammates in the media. Your words seem to indicate you feel otherwise and you are downplaying if not belittling his performance up to this point.


By no means am I "belittling" his performance or saying what he did wasnt "good". Good for him doing his extra curricular activities. Im saying, I understand why Brees held out, and why Forte and Rice are. They have proved they deserve that nice contract and have earned it. Avril, yes hes been good for us, but when someone says dominant pass rusher, I doubt anyone thinks of Avril first. And from everything IVE heard, he WANTS Charles Johnson money.

As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.

I think if he holds out and Young plays in his spot, there isnt gonna be THAT much of a dropoff as far as pass rushing goes.

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July 14th, 2012, 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
The Legend wrote:
but I dont like the way you are saying it. All reports on Avril say that he is negotiating in good faith, attending teammates charity functions/childrens camps, working out nearby in the area, and speaking highly of his teammates in the media. Your words seem to indicate you feel otherwise and you are downplaying if not belittling his performance up to this point.


By no means am I "belittling" his performance or saying what he did wasnt "good". Good for him doing his extra curricular activities. Im saying, I understand why Brees held out, and why Forte and Rice are. They have proved they deserve that nice contract and have earned it. Avril, yes hes been good for us, but when someone says dominant pass rusher, I doubt anyone thinks of Avril first. And from everything IVE heard, he WANTS Charles Johnson money.

As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.

I think if he holds out and Young plays in his spot, there isnt gonna be THAT much of a dropoff as far as pass rushing goes.


Unless he's traded for at least a 1st round pick (which would be a steal for us), we should do whatever we can to get him on a franchise tag to give him one more year. Even if Willie Young can't fill in as well as Avril, we have an extra 1st round pick, and I trust management to get a replacement easily, even if he's not currently on the roster.

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July 14th, 2012, 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
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As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


July 14th, 2012, 10:19 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


You make some good points, but let me ask YOU this. If Avril was soooo great, tell me, why hasnt the FO given him a contract?

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July 14th, 2012, 10:55 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


Bravo Legend. I thoroughly agree with you here. I cannot understand all the trade Avril sentiment on this site. Avril has improved every year, never got arrested, is a great team mate, and is part of the reason the team has improved. You pay guys like that. You don't trade them :!:


July 14th, 2012, 10:57 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


You make some good points, but let me ask YOU this. If Avril was soooo great, tell me, why hasnt the FO given him a contract?


That is simple. Salary cap constraints. It takes time to work a deal so that it fits within the cap and is agreeable to both sides when your so tight up against the cap like the Lions are. Who says the Lions aren't trying to get him signed long term?


July 14th, 2012, 11:00 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


I understand that he's becoming a top DE, but think about it. If we keep him, we lose around $10 mill annually. If we franchise him, which gives us more time to see if he's worth the money and also see how the current backups fare, we can make the right decision. Look at Ladarius Webb last year. He wasn't even mentioned on the Ravens defense and turned into one of the top cornerbacks. Anybody can break out, and I think one of our backup ends is capable of doing that. If he has another big year he will DEFINITELY be resigned long-term. If not, someone steps in and some needed FAs are signed to fill in for other needs. I may be rushing the whole process of building a championship team. I just want Stafford raising the Lombardi trophy as soon as possible.

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July 14th, 2012, 11:30 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
As "good" of a player Avril is, I think this team understands he is producing thanks to Suh. Like Shotty posted about that video Suh getting double teamed on all of Avrils highlights.


Really? Clearly you didnt watch the video. Sure Suh got double teamed a couple times but he still had little or nothing to do with Avril making the play on those plays, and on many of the plays Suh is getting handled one on one. If Suh were creating pressure up the middle and forced the QB to flush out of the pocket towards Avril, you might have a case but I saw that on maybe one of those plays and that was a playoff game where Avril got a half sack and it doesnt really count on his stats anyway. Go watch Suh's rookie highlight reel and you ll see a few plays where Suh gets credit for a sack for pursuing Cutler down the line of scrimmage or Avril, KVB and even Turk f-ing McBride make the play and Suh cleans it up. Does that mean that Suh didnt have a great rookie season?

Until the NFL switches to allow A11 schemes the OL vs DL is always going to be 5 on 4 so someone is going to get double teamed and usually vs a 4-3 defense its the center helping out one of the guards and or looking for a blitz. If a DE is going to get doubled it will generally be a back helping on him or they will keep the TE in as a blocker. Almost any team that Avril would play on would have the 2 DTs being blocked by the 3 interior OL, thats just standard. Dont give me this bs that because someone else is double teamed they get credit, Avril still has to beat his man to make a play! That player getting double teamed is not causing Avril, KVB or whoever else to completely smoke whatever OT is tryin to block them. On the clip that shotty linked to, for the most part Avril is dominating the OT trying to block him. If anything the highlight reel supports Avril's claim to the franchise tag and a long term deal. Let me ask you both how much a suspended Suh helped Avril vs Minnesota when Avril had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles - one of which went to Tulloch for a TD to open the scoring, 3 tackles for loss and a fumble recovery?


I understand that he's becoming a top DE, but think about it. If we keep him, we lose around $10 mill annually. If we franchise him, which gives us more time to see if he's worth the money and also see how the current backups fare, we can make the right decision. Look at Ladarius Webb last year. He wasn't even mentioned on the Ravens defense and turned into one of the top cornerbacks. Anybody can break out, and I think one of our backup ends is capable of doing that. If he has another big year he will DEFINITELY be resigned long-term. If not, someone steps in and some needed FAs are signed to fill in for other needs. I may be rushing the whole process of building a championship team. I just want Stafford raising the Lombardi trophy as soon as possible.


I can think of 1 really good reason to give Avril a long term deal right now. If he has another 10+ sack season, his price will shoot much higher than if we signed him this off season. And you simply won't be able to justify trading him.


July 15th, 2012, 12:03 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
I think letting him play out this year on the franchise tag is a win-win for the Lions. If his performance drops, his contract becomes easier, and if he really shows up, then we end up with a top flight DE who either warrants a big contract or he turns into excellent trade bait (tag/sign him then trade him).

The Lions FO has been making some very intelligent and calculated decisions for the past couple of years, and by this time next year, the Avril situation will serve as another example of Schwartz/Mahew/Lewand's greatness.


July 15th, 2012, 8:17 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
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You make some good points, but let me ask YOU this. If Avril was soooo great, tell me, why hasnt the FO given him a contract?


It looks like they dont have much cap space going forward and thats the biggest reason. They have some significant contributors on contracts coming nearing expiration. If they tie the money up on Avril but there young LBs prove to be nothing than they might lose the ability to sign Levy or Durant at LB without a viable replacement. Same story at CB where Chris Houston's contract will expire after the season. Also they need to see if KVB and C Williams are going to have enough left to justify paying for there 2013 seasons. They may be able to save some money by giving 2-3 year extensions to Sammie Hill, Lawrence Jackson, and Willie Young before they become FA.

The franchise tag allows the Lions to keep there defense together for another season and still let things play out so they can determine which veterans need to be kept and which spots they might be able to fill with younger cheaper players.


July 15th, 2012, 8:20 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
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You make some good points, but let me ask YOU this. If Avril was soooo great, tell me, why hasnt the FO given him a contract?


It looks like they dont have much cap space going forward and thats the biggest reason. They have some significant contributors on contracts coming nearing expiration. If they tie the money up on Avril but there young LBs prove to be nothing than they might lose the ability to sign Levy or Durant at LB without a viable replacement. Same story at CB where Chris Houston's contract will expire after the season. Also they need to see if KVB and C Williams are going to have enough left to justify paying for there 2013 seasons. They may be able to save some money by giving 2-3 year extensions to Sammie Hill, Lawrence Jackson, and Willie Young before they become FA.

The franchise tag allows the Lions to keep there defense together for another season and still let things play out so they can determine which veterans need to be kept and which spots they might be able to fill with younger cheaper players.


Understandable. And you know what, we each have our own opinions. But I think what DayDreamer said in his post above makes the most sense to me.

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July 15th, 2012, 11:40 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
i agree with daydreamer as well within the context that the Lions dont have a lot of cap space and have a lot of veterans hitting the end of there deals. If the Lions had the cap space and had there starters at LB/CB/DT/S locked up going into the future, Avril would have been signed in March. Signing Avril isnt worth having a starting LB corps of Hogue/Tulloch/Whitehead, CB rotation of Bentley/Greenwood/Green, S of Spievey/draft pick unless some of those guys prove themselves first. They have to keep some flexibility in case they want to keep any of C Williams/LoJack/Durant/Levy/Houston/Berry/Delmas.


July 16th, 2012, 12:09 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Lions' cap space isn't too bad this year--it's 2013 that looks dicey. That probably has a lot to do with Avril's situation--the Lions are going to have to make some tough decisions in 2013 so they need to be thinking NOW about which players really need to be on the 2013 roster. This is why I doubt a long-term deal is reached today. They'll force Avril to prove in 2012 that he's an integral part of the 2013 team.

There are some major risks to this strategy--without a long-term deal for Avril today, the Lions will be in this exact same situation next year. And for those who think that Avril's production can be easily replaced by Willie Young or LoJack, what do you think will happen with those contracts a year from now? If they do indeed produce, neither Young nor Jackson is under contract for 2013, so those guys will be asking for the same kind of money Avril is asking for. The Lions might have to use the franchise tag on a DE yet again!

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July 16th, 2012, 2:39 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
BillySims wrote:
I can think of 1 really good reason to give Avril a long term deal right now. If he has another 10+ sack season, his price will shoot much higher than if we signed him this off season. And you simply won't be able to justify trading him.


So for one good season in the past you want to pay him big money for the next four to five years in fear that he may repeat what he did in 2011?

And if he doesn't?

Big contracts should be given to proven high level producers on the field. One season, at least to me, isn't proof that he's worth that much of an investment. If he repeats in 2012, the cost per season won't be that much greater next off-season. But if he fails to meet the expectations, the Lions have just thrown away millions.

In four seasons he's racked up 30 sacks in 57 games played. That's just over half a sack per game. He has gotten progressively better, so I will give him that much credit. But I just don't see the outstanding production from him that would be worth a contract that meets or exceeds $45M or more.

If Cliff thinks he's that great, he should sign the tender and play for the $10.6M and hope for the big payday next year. If the Lions think he's worth it, they'd have paid him already. Obviously neither party really believes he's an elite level talent, and as such he should not be paid at that level.

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July 16th, 2012, 3:45 pm
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