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 Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this? 
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
m2karateman wrote:
Legend, I understand what you are saying. However, I think the three year offer was something that Avril agreed to. He just wanted more guaranteed money. I'm sorry, but how many players do you know that get a three year deal with the bulk of it guaranteed? Even Brees only got 60% of the face value of his deal guaranteed. Avril got a higher guarantee percentage than Brees.

A three year deal for him is actually a benefit, because when his deal ends he would be considered in his prime, and with some luck and good production could really cash in at that time.

Let's look at things this way. Other teams could have made an offer for Avril, but wouldn't want to give up the two first round picks. Those teams knew that the Lions simply could not match a high offer...anything in excess of $11M per year would have forced the Lions to let him go. But the fact is that other teams, it seems, didn't even try to get the Lions to swing a sign and trade deal. I think if there were other teams seriously interested in Avril, they would have pursued something like that.

While the deal the Lions offered certainly wasn't tremendous, it's what they could do. Avril turning it down shows me one thing. His talk of wanting to stay in Detroit above all other things, and it not being about the money is absolute BS. The Lions offered what they could within the limits of their comfort. This deal not getting done falls ENTIRELY on his shoulders.


Took the words right out of my mouth.

And Legend, we all worry about Avril leaving and the DL's production dropping. That's the basis of getting him to sign the franchise tag. I wouldn't be surprised if he did sign, and in games we have big leads in Lo Jack and Willie Young get lots of playing time. If he does sign it, there's almost no chance he stays next year unless he has a slight drop in production. I don't think he's worth the contract they offered him. He's one of the guys who makes it so we NEED to find talent in the draft since we can't afford FAs because of since he's asking for 10 million. That isn't exactly a problem, but think about this. We can get him on a franchise tag for this season, and after let him go, sign the best DE who'll sign for $3-5 million a year if necessary, and get 1 more BIG offensive line or defensive free agent with the remaining money. Just a thought.

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July 17th, 2012, 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
mwill2 wrote:
It seems true that Avril might be overpricing himself (especially if the reported contract offer is true) but these contract demands actually make it impossible to trade him. Avril received the non-exclusive tag, which means he had the right to negotiate a deal with another team and nothing happened. We can talk all we want about how trading him would have been a good idea but it was never an option. The Lions had only two choices: using the franchise tag or letting Avril walk as an UFA.


Right, because no other team wanted him. We could have traded him for any compensation that we deemed proper, but apparently not much of value was on the table, or Mayhew was convinced that we NEED him around to have a successful 2012 season (now that the draft and FA have passed).

The Legend wrote:
m2k - this is not a black and white situation. i totally understand why the long term contract did not happen. mayhew probably offerred about as much as he could and probably felt uncomfortable with how little flexibility that left him with going into next season. still from avril's perspective it wasnt a strong offer, it was a very lukewarm one. yes the 10mill/year is fair but its less than what avril would get per year on the franchise tag and its extremely unlikely whoever signs him next year wont give him at least 9.4 million guaranteed bc the Lions only offerred 20 mill guaranteed but probably the biggest problem was that 3 years no matter how you look at it was way too short compared to what comparable ends get as far as length of the deal. i wouldnt consider rejecting this offer a snub by avril - mayhew knows he cant pay avril his market value right now and as you said maybe will not ever be able to pay it. how avril and others perform this year will ultimately make that decision for mayhew easier. if the cheaper DEs like Young/Jackson/Lewis get an opportunity and make the most of it but the young LBs and corners fall on there faces then I think Avril walks and Mayhew spends to patch the other positions. If the reserve DEs show more durability issues but lets say Greenwood and Whitehead look like starters at CB and LB then maybe Mayhew can make Avril a better offer.


Avril is already on record stating that he would do a 3 year deal. It's not the number of years that is a problem. He wants more money, period. It can't be guaranteed money that he's complaining about, he's not going to get more than $20 mill guaranteed on a three year deal from anyone. He's likely looking more for $12 million per on a three year deal. That's insane, he's not worth it.

I DO consider rejecting the offer a snub by Avril. Why? Because it's probably more than he's currently worth given that he's had ONE GOOD SEASON, and that at least a portion of his production stems from being surrounded by other great talent. A three year $30 million dollar deal is more than he deserves, and that's not factoring in that $20 million would be guaranteed, which is just flat out sick. I hope Mayhew never makes a "better offer" to Cliff. He's already over the market on this kid. The "better offer" (or option) at this point is to let Avril walk and get whatever we can for him.

The Legend wrote:
You cant just let everyone go unless you have replacements that are proven to be ready otherwise its a roll of the dice. personally Ill be ecstatic if Avril signs his tender because we get him for that one more season and at this point is there a better way to spend the 10.6 million? As KVB or Corey Williams age and Fairley/Suh mature, Avril is the one starter on that DL that is hitting his prime. the philosophy of this defense is beat the pass with passrush and dont worry about the run until its a shortyardage situation. avril is more than a luxury.


We could have had "replacements," like I said. I told you who we COULD have signed in his place.

The Legend wrote:
finally does anyone really believe wjb would be happy with anything? is michael bush any less injury prone than jahvid best or is he just protected as a backup? he ll also be 32 when his bears deal expires. tracy porter ill give you was one of the better deals of the offseason but would he hold up without a passrush in front of him? remember that saints pass defense didnt hold up in the playoffs vs the 49ers offensive personnel or really at any time all last season. is porter really the answer? id love a 2nd round pick but would we have gotten an immediate 10 sack/yr guy in that round? would any team have even given up a 2nd rder knowing that they d also have to pay 10+ mill for 5 years or so? its easy to write some of these things but its not as much of a slam dunk as it seems on paper. what mayhew has done is keep his starters except for eric wright and has added depth throughout. im happy


That's just flat out ridiculous. All I do is call out management mistakes when I see them, and for the most part, I'm right! You really want to say that Michael Bush is just as injury prone as Javid Best? Look at the % of games that each has missed vs games that they have been available for. I'd take Bush in a second over Best, any day of the week. Want to bet that in the next four years Bush plays in more games than Best? I'll take that bet any day. Prove me wrong. I'll also bet you that Bush has more rushing yards in that same time period.

Porter WOULD have had a pass rush in front of him, even absent Cliff Avril. You act like Avril is the heart of our team and the cause of our passrush. Like I said, there's little drop off between he and Willie Young, and I expect Willie Young to get better with time. What concerns me more than anything about Willie Young is his temper/willingness to commit penalties. LoJack is a serviceable DE, and we're going to have great DTs no matter what. IMO Porter alone would have done more for this team than Cliff would have.

m2karateman wrote:
Legend, I understand what you are saying. However, I think the three year offer was something that Avril agreed to. He just wanted more guaranteed money. I'm sorry, but how many players do you know that get a three year deal with the bulk of it guaranteed? Even Brees only got 60% of the face value of his deal guaranteed. Avril got a higher guarantee percentage than Brees.

A three year deal for him is actually a benefit, because when his deal ends he would be considered in his prime, and with some luck and good production could really cash in at that time.

Let's look at things this way. Other teams could have made an offer for Avril, but wouldn't want to give up the two first round picks. Those teams knew that the Lions simply could not match a high offer...anything in excess of $11M per year would have forced the Lions to let him go. But the fact is that other teams, it seems, didn't even try to get the Lions to swing a sign and trade deal. I think if there were other teams seriously interested in Avril, they would have pursued something like that.

While the deal the Lions offered certainly wasn't tremendous, it's what they could do. Avril turning it down shows me one thing. His talk of wanting to stay in Detroit above all other things, and it not being about the money is absolute BS. The Lions offered what they could within the limits of their comfort. This deal not getting done falls ENTIRELY on his shoulders.


To me it also shows me that Avril himself is a afraid that he can't keep up his level of production. The guaranteed money alone is more than he's made in his entire career, and he would be set for life if he signed that deal. Why not take it, be a multi-millionaire for three years, and get a ridiculous sick contract in the prime of your carrer? It doesn't make sense, unless you're afraid that you can't keep it up.


July 17th, 2012, 2:20 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
well i dont think they should have offerred more than 10 mill per year (if that makes any of you happy) but playing on the franchise guarantees Avril 10.6 million right? Lions offerred $20 mill guaranteed. Within reason Avril will at least see the difference $9.4 mill guaranteed on whatever contract he takes after next season so I really doubt him and his agent see it as a risk for him. the math just says that the 3yr/30 isnt much better than 1yr/10.6 and going on the open market a year from now. i was unaware that avril said he d go for a 3 year deal but you cant deny that a 5yr/45-50 deal with 30 guaranteed isnt a much better deal than 3/30 w 20 guaranteed from his perspective. maybe he thought if the term was shorter he d get a lil more per season. none of us know what his expectations were.


July 17th, 2012, 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
well i dont think they should have offerred more than 10 mill per year (if that makes any of you happy) but playing on the franchise guarantees Avril 10.6 million right? Lions offerred $20 mill guaranteed. Within reason Avril will at least see the difference $9.4 mill guaranteed on whatever contract he takes after next season so I really doubt him and his agent see it as a risk for him. the math just says that the 3yr/30 isnt much better than 1yr/10.6 and going on the open market a year from now. i was unaware that avril said he d go for a 3 year deal but you cant deny that a 5yr/45-50 deal with 30 guaranteed isnt a much better deal than 3/30 w 20 guaranteed from his perspective. maybe he thought if the term was shorter he d get a lil more per season. none of us know what his expectations were.


I agree with you 100%, other than your claim that $20 million guaranteed is of no benefit to him.

1) It's predicated on the assumption that he produces another 10 sack season. If he gets 6-8 sacks his market value will fall.

2) It's predicated on him not getting hurt... It's GUARANTEED MONEY, that's the point.

I don't disagree that $5 year $50 mill is better, but he doesn't deserve it. Like I said, the guy has had ONE good season.


July 17th, 2012, 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
if he doesnt get seriously hurt but has a 7-9 sack season he ll easily see $9.4 guaranteed on the open market. the only risk is a serious injury or that he transforms into a worthless player. otherwise if he produces 75% of last season he ll make more money than the Lions offer. thats all im saying and based on that i understand why he didnt sign it.

i would say he had 2 promising seasons, 1 good season and 1 great season. we can disagree on what he "deserved" but the fact is he doesnt have to take what people think he deserves if thats less than what he ll get on the FA market. look at what eric wright got...


July 17th, 2012, 5:21 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
if he doesnt get seriously hurt but has a 7-9 sack season he ll easily see $9.4 guaranteed on the open market. the only risk is a serious injury or that he transforms into a worthless player. otherwise if he produces 75% of last season he ll make more money than the Lions offer. thats all im saying and based on that i understand why he didnt sign it.

i would say he had 2 promising seasons, 1 good season and 1 great season. we can disagree on what he "deserved" but the fact is he doesnt have to take what people think he deserves if thats less than what he ll get on the FA market. look at what eric wright got...


I don't think other teams were as willing to give him his perceived notion of his "market value." I think his market rate, for whatever reason, is in the $8.5 per range. If I were Mayhew I would have taken a 2nd round pick for him in a heart beat, but apparently there weren't any real offers.


July 17th, 2012, 5:30 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The Legend wrote:
if he doesnt get seriously hurt but has a 7-9 sack season he ll easily see $9.4 guaranteed on the open market. the only risk is a serious injury or that he transforms into a worthless player. otherwise if he produces 75% of last season he ll make more money than the Lions offer. thats all im saying and based on that i understand why he didnt sign it.

i would say he had 2 promising seasons, 1 good season and 1 great season. we can disagree on what he "deserved" but the fact is he doesnt have to take what people think he deserves if thats less than what he ll get on the FA market. look at what eric wright got...


I don't think other teams were as willing to give him his perceived notion of his "market value." I think his market rate, for whatever reason, is in the $8.5 per range. If I were Mayhew I would have taken a 2nd round pick for him in a heart beat, but apparently there weren't any real offers.


I don't think it's that easy. It's unknown how a backup would fare in his spot, which is why I want him on a franchise tag, just to be there. Who knows if Willie Young will step on the field next year and be absolutely dominant, or if Willie Young will step on the field and struggle? Another year will be enough for Mayhew to understand what should and can be done to benefit the Lions beneficially and as a team.

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July 17th, 2012, 6:14 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The Legend wrote:
if he doesnt get seriously hurt but has a 7-9 sack season he ll easily see $9.4 guaranteed on the open market. the only risk is a serious injury or that he transforms into a worthless player. otherwise if he produces 75% of last season he ll make more money than the Lions offer. thats all im saying and based on that i understand why he didnt sign it.

i would say he had 2 promising seasons, 1 good season and 1 great season. we can disagree on what he "deserved" but the fact is he doesnt have to take what people think he deserves if thats less than what he ll get on the FA market. look at what eric wright got...


I don't think other teams were as willing to give him his perceived notion of his "market value." I think his market rate, for whatever reason, is in the $8.5 per range. If I were Mayhew I would have taken a 2nd round pick for him in a heart beat, but apparently there weren't any real offers.


I don't think it's that easy. It's unknown how a backup would fare in his spot, which is why I want him on a franchise tag, just to be there. Who knows if Willie Young will step on the field next year and be absolutely dominant, or if Willie Young will step on the field and struggle? Another year will be enough for Mayhew to understand what should and can be done to benefit the Lions beneficially and as a team.



Schotty, I said "were" meaning pre-draft and before the end of FA. Now that we can't get someone to replace him I think we're stuck with him, unless he demands a trade via holdout. Now that Porter and Bush are signed, and no one else is available, we're no longer in a better position getting rid of him this year. It's not that I think that Young is as good as Avril. I'm say thing that we would have been better of with getting a pick for him, drafting his replacement and letting that pick, LoJack, and Young fill his spot by committee, on a team that would have been better at CB and RB via a larger presence in FA. However, apparently other teams weren't willing to live up to Avril's contract demands and reasonable compensation for him, thus my assertion that his perception of his market value is in fact inflated.

Prior to the draft I said we'd be better off without him, and I stand by that. I still think that Porter and Bush make this team better than only having Cliff on this team.


July 17th, 2012, 7:06 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
It's kind of useless to argue this point any longer. We basically know what the Lions were able to put on the table, and that Cliff refused it. If he has a sub-par season, or gets a serious injury, he has nobody to blame but himself if he gets little to no play in free agency next year. At the same time, if he has a really good season, then his gamble will have paid off. Either way, he'll be a Lions starting DE for at least one more season. Personally, I hope he has a really good season and then some team overpays him a ton next year. If we can't trade him, at least we'll get a good comp pick for him in 2014.

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July 18th, 2012, 9:01 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
It seems true that Avril might be overpricing himself (especially if the reported contract offer is true) but these contract demands actually make it impossible to trade him. Avril received the non-exclusive tag, which means he had the right to negotiate a deal with another team and nothing happened. We can talk all we want about how trading him would have been a good idea but it was never an option. The Lions had only two choices: using the franchise tag or letting Avril walk as an UFA.


Right, because no other team wanted him. We could have traded him for any compensation that we deemed proper, but apparently not much of value was on the table, or Mayhew was convinced that we NEED him around to have a successful 2012 season (now that the draft and FA have passed).


Sort of. Remember, if the Lions were convinced that Avril was a key to 2012 success, they would have used the "exclusive" franchise tag (like the Saints used with Brees), which prevents the player from negotiating with other teams. That would have guaranteed that Avril would stay in Detroit for 2012.

Instead, the non-exclusive franchise tag was applied. This means the Lions were willing to trade Avril before the draft and were apparently unable to do so. And before we start complaining that the Lions demanded too much in a trade, remember that the process starts with Avril reaching an agreement in principle with another team--he was unable to do so.

We now have a good guess about what Avril was looking for (apparently Calais Campbell money: avg. $11M per year over 3-5 years). We shouldn't be surprised that the obstacle to a trade was Avril himself, not the Lions. I don't think anyone here is surprised nobody offered him that contract.

There's been a lot of complaining about the Lions not trading Avril before the draft and I'm simply pointing out that they couldn't trade him. Because Avril couldn't get the contract he wanted from another team, trading him wasn't even an option. The only way the Lions could have avoided this situation would have been to let Avril walk without compensation as an UFA.

*Edited: I agree, by the way, that Lions' reported offer to Avril was really good. I think he's taking a big risk by turning it down!

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July 18th, 2012, 9:50 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
It seems true that Avril might be overpricing himself (especially if the reported contract offer is true) but these contract demands actually make it impossible to trade him. Avril received the non-exclusive tag, which means he had the right to negotiate a deal with another team and nothing happened. We can talk all we want about how trading him would have been a good idea but it was never an option. The Lions had only two choices: using the franchise tag or letting Avril walk as an UFA.


Right, because no other team wanted him. We could have traded him for any compensation that we deemed proper, but apparently not much of value was on the table, or Mayhew was convinced that we NEED him around to have a successful 2012 season (now that the draft and FA have passed).


Sort of. Remember, if the Lions were convinced that Avril was a key to 2012 success, they would have used the "exclusive" franchise tag (like the Saints used with Brees), which prevents the player from negotiating with other teams. That would have guaranteed that Avril would stay in Detroit for 2012.

Instead, the non-exclusive franchise tag was applied. This means the Lions were willing to trade Avril before the draft and were apparently unable to do so. And before we start complaining that the Lions demanded too much in a trade, remember that the process starts with Avril reaching an agreement in principle with another team--he was unable to do so.

We now have a good guess about what Avril was looking for (apparently Calais Campbell money: avg. $11M per year over 3-5 years). We shouldn't be surprised that the obstacle to a trade was Avril himself, not the Lions. I don't think anyone here is surprised nobody offered him that contract.

There's been a lot of complaining about the Lions not trading Avril before the draft and I'm simply pointing out that they couldn't trade him. Because Avril couldn't get the contract he wanted from another team, trading him wasn't even an option. The only way the Lions could have avoided this situation would have been to let Avril walk without compensation as an UFA.

*Edited: I agree, by the way, that Lions' reported offer to Avril was really good. I think he's taking a big risk by turning it down!



MWill, we're making the same point. That Avril's contract demands are too high, and he's over-inflated his sense of self-worth. If any team really thought he was the star that he thinks he is they would have no problem paying him top flight DE money, and they would have given up up a second round pick in a heartbeat to get him.


July 18th, 2012, 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Cliff said in an interview that he won't be at the first day of camp and might not go at all. Right now is the time to trade him. A 2nd round pick would be great.

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July 18th, 2012, 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
Cliff said in an interview that he won't be at the first day of camp and might not go at all. Right now is the time to trade him. A 2nd round pick would be great.


I knew that was going to happen. why risk getting hurt. I used to like Avril...Im really starting to not anymore.

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July 18th, 2012, 5:05 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
Cliff said in an interview that he won't be at the first day of camp and might not go at all. Right now is the time to trade him. A 2nd round pick would be great.


Are there any disgruntled players out there that can be had that can still help this team this year? (Someone in a similar situation to Asante Samuel last year). It would suck to get rid of someone that would obviously help this team this year for "future consideration." We needed this team to be as good as could have been, hence the reason for needed to trade him 4 months ago. Mayhew really effed up this situation.

The reason I said we needed to trade him before the draft was so we could use his money via FA and the draft to better this team. We don't need depth we need impact players that can help this team win now. It's no secret that we're going to have trouble keeping Stafford, Suh, and Calvin together long-term. We need to build around them now and make a run at the SB.


July 18th, 2012, 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
But we cant trade him until he signs his tender. He totally hamstrung us. It was either let him go and get nothing or get one more year oyut of him and hope he signs a deal....

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July 18th, 2012, 5:12 pm
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