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 Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go 
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
That said, IF Mayhew or Bill Jr fire Schwartz I'd like to see someone like Tom Coughlin come in to instill some discipline. IMO the that's the biggest problem; no discipline. They're a soft team that continues to cause their own problems. Good teams do not beat themselves. They have the talent to win; they just need the right coach to get them there.
Been hearing that Shanahan might get the axe soon, wonder what he could do with this team.......


Not interested. I think Shanahan is done as a coach. I have not been impressed with what he's done in Washington. They have some pretty solid talent there.
Understood. Granted we may never know, but with all the stuff I'm hearing/reading coming out of DC, perhaps Shanahan's hands are/were tied. For example, most peeps would agree that RGIII should not have started the season. Considering his past, I wouldn't be surprised if Snyder told him he had to play RGIII. That aside, if the HC wants out, the team's not going to perform.

m2karateman wrote:
If the Lions keep Schwartz for 2014, they need to establish a check list with him of what his team NEEDS to accomplish in order for him to keep his job. In should include:

Reduction of team mental mistakes. Must be one of the 10 least penalized teams in the league, must have a turnover to takeaway ratio of +6 or better for the season.

No more than two games lost when leading in the fourth quarter.

Minimum 10 wins for the season.

Make the playoffs.

Win first playoff game, regardless of who is faced.

Drive accountability to the players for their mistakes.

Unless he accomplishes ALL of those things, he should be fired. It is time to quit settling for mediocrity from this team. Schwartz accepts it.
Agreed. Won't happen, but it's nice to dream sometimes :wink:

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December 9th, 2013, 12:23 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
TheRealWags wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
That said, IF Mayhew or Bill Jr fire Schwartz I'd like to see someone like Tom Coughlin come in to instill some discipline. IMO the that's the biggest problem; no discipline. They're a soft team that continues to cause their own problems. Good teams do not beat themselves. They have the talent to win; they just need the right coach to get them there.
Been hearing that Shanahan might get the axe soon, wonder what he could do with this team.......

Shanny would probably be an upgrade.

Also, one more thing to add for those who think the coach doesn't make that much difference or shouldn't be fired. Look at San Francisco 3 years ago or KC last year. 3 years ago San Fran was 6-10 in a really weak NFC West. They weren't seen as anything too special. Then Harbaugh takes over and magically they became a 13-3 team? Did they overhaul the roster? Nope. Here's the list of free agents they signed: David Baas, Tony Wragge, Chris Patrick, Barry Sims, Alex Smith (re-signed), Troy Smith, Brian Westbrook, Demetric Evans, Ray McDonald (re-signed), Travis LaBoy, Aubrayo Franklin, Manny Lawson, Takeo Spikes, William James, Dashon Goldson (re-signed), C. J. Spillman (re-signed), Jeff Reed. The only of those guys who was seen as any good at the time was Spikes and maybe Goldson. Nobody else was a major addition there. What about draft picks? Here they are: Aldon Smith (stud), Colin Kaepernick (good player, but didn't do anything until last year), Chris Culliver,, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Ronald Johnson, Colin Jones, Bruce Miller, Mike Person, Curtis Holcomb. Smith is really the only difference maker in that bunch. The rest didn't make any big difference. So what changed? The coach. The mentality. How players are held accountable. How mistakes are tolerated. All those things. They got the right coach and he made all the difference for them.

So how about KC from last year to this year? Last year they were 2-14. Sure they went out and got a new QB in Alex Smith, but he's hardly a franchise guy. He's solid, but nothing spectacular. Other than him they didn't add anyone great. Their draft picks likewise haven't done much for them. So they basically have the same roster that couldn't win for the past few years, and they bring in the right coach and suddenly they're one of the best teams in the league. Imagine that!

My point here is that in both cases, you have teams who were clearly talented, but weren't getting it done. Then the right coach was brought in and voila, winning teams. It has happened many, many, many times throughout the history of modern sports. It's not rocket science. Some coaches are able to get teams to elite levels, and some aren't. As I said before, Schwartz is (in my opinion) a Norv Turner type coach: he's good at getting the team to a certain level, but then can't seem to take them over the hump. I think we're seeing the Lions in exactly that situation. Good enough that they should be winning, but not well coached enough to do so consistently. It's time for a change.

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December 9th, 2013, 12:23 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Just one more thing to add to the pile. Another example of how inconsistent this team has been:


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December 9th, 2013, 12:38 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
I keep hearing how:

1. Not winning the division would be terrible because the Bears and Packers have injuries.

2. Good teams find a way to overcome issues and win.

Why are we excuse making for our divisional rivals when comparing how we are doing vs them, but not excuse making for us? I can see the logic behind one or other of the propositions, but can't see how you can run both arguments at the same time.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Look at San Francisco 3 years ago or KC last year.

Surely even the most ardent Schwartz hater can't consider him on a par with Singeltary or Crennel?

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
As I said before, Schwartz is (in my opinion) a Norv Turner type coach: he's good at getting the team to a certain level, but then can't seem to take them over the hump.

I'm willing to wait to the end of the season to find out. If he ended up this year with (from when he had a roster that had some talent) with the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years and a win in one or two games in the playoffs, then I think we'll be looking at a different picture.

Who knows if we'll manage that or not?


December 9th, 2013, 12:41 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Pablo wrote:
When was the last time the Lions...

Had a QB as good as Stafford (you can almost stop right here)?
Had a RB combo as good as Bush/Bell?
Had the best WR in the league?
Had and OL this good?
Had a DL this good?
Had a LBs playing as well as Levy and Tulloch?
Had a safety combo as good as Quin and Delmas?
Had a rookie class this good?
Had a team this healthy in December?
How many Lions coaching staffs would you want over this?
What GM would you like over Mayhew?

Perhaps you can come up with a few answers, but imagine this all happening at the same time....


Most of the things you list Pablo are about the players that are acquired. Team health has nothing to do with coaching, and player acquisition is about the manager, not the coaching staff. And I'm not looking for a redux of a past Lions coaching staff, or even a new GM. I want a coach who drives accountability into the players, and if they don't respond either gets rid of them or sends them a serious message. When the same mistakes are made over and over, by not just one player but multiple players, that is a lack of discipline and accountability. That is controlled by one of two entities on a team: the player leadership council or the coaching staff. I know the team has a player leadership council. Big deal. THEY AREN'T GETTING THE MESSAGE THROUGH. The coaching staff has to take the next steps. And this deep into the season, if they haven't done that then Schwartz is at fault.

All those great and wonderful things you've pointed out Pablo...and this team is 7-6 and struggling to win a division that was theirs for the taking. If that's not a wake up call telling you the coaches aren't getting the job done, then I don't know what is.

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December 9th, 2013, 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
UK Lion wrote:
I keep hearing how:

1. Not winning the division would be terrible because the Bears and Packers have injuries.

2. Good teams find a way to overcome issues and win.

Why are we excuse making for our divisional rivals when comparing how we are doing vs them, but not excuse making for us? I can see the logic behind one or other of the propositions, but can't see how you can run both arguments at the same time.


Who said Lions fans don't, or haven't? Didn't most Lions fans use Calvin being out of the first game against Green Bay as an excuse of why our offense struggled? Didn't we use the excuse of Stafford being hurt as why his first two seasons weren't true marks of how well this team could play? Wasn't Stafford's injury to his finger last year an excuse of why he couldn't throw the ball accurately and as a result we lost games?

Not winning the division WOULD be terrible, because the Lions have a distinct advantage over all of the other teams. Green Bay and Chicago have played the bulk of their season without their startiing QBs, and Minnesota is without a true starting QB. No bigger advantage is going to present itself like that to the Lions any time soon.

UK Lion wrote:
Surely even the most ardent Schwartz hater can't consider him on a par with Singeltary or Crennel?


Yes, yes I do. At this stage, they are basically the same thing. A head coach with a talented, yet underperforming roster. That's pretty much on par.

UK Lion wrote:
I'm willing to wait to the end of the season to find out. If he ended up this year with (from when he had a roster that had some talent) with the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years and a win in one or two games in the playoffs, then I think we'll be looking at a different picture.

Who knows if we'll manage that or not?


Most of us are done waiting. Opportunities don't always come around. Injuries to other teams in the division, along with a lack of injuries to our own players...how often do you expect that to happen? If you want to wait, that's fine. If you want to settle for mediocre performance, fine. Most of us aren't willing to watch more of this bullshit any longer.

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December 9th, 2013, 1:04 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
UK Lion wrote:
I keep hearing how:

1. Not winning the division would be terrible because the Bears and Packers have injuries.

2. Good teams find a way to overcome issues and win.

Why are we excuse making for our divisional rivals when comparing how we are doing vs them, but not excuse making for us? I can see the logic behind one or other of the propositions, but can't see how you can run both arguments at the same time.

It's not about making excuses. To me, the injuries aren't the main thing because every team will suffer when their franchise QB goes down. Aside from NE a few years ago, that pretty much doesn't happen. So, that aside, this is basically an issue to capitalizing on an opportunity and not shooting yourself in the foot. Every team in the NFCN is having a down year, and the Lions have the easiest schedule in the entire NFL. If you can't win your division in a year when all of your division rivals are having a down year and you have the easiest possible schedule, then when can you ever win it? There is no acceptable reason why the Lions, in their current state of health, should not win their division. None.
UK Lion wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Look at San Francisco 3 years ago or KC last year.

Surely even the most ardent Schwartz hater can't consider him on a par with Singeltary or Crennel?

I never said he was. I've said many times that he's a good, but not great coach. Hence the following comment.

UK Lion wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
As I said before, Schwartz is (in my opinion) a Norv Turner type coach: he's good at getting the team to a certain level, but then can't seem to take them over the hump.

I'm willing to wait to the end of the season to find out. If he ended up this year with (from when he had a roster that had some talent) with the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years and a win in one or two games in the playoffs, then I think we'll be looking at a different picture.

Who knows if we'll manage that or not?

To me, the way this season has played out, and knowing what we now know about the talent level and ability of the players on this team, there is no excuse for the Lions not to win their division and they should win at least 1 playoff game. They are good enough to do that and if they don't that falls on the coaching staff.

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December 9th, 2013, 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
There is no acceptable reason why the Lions, in their current state of health, should not win their division. None.

I agree. They haven't not won their division yet. They are still in first. That doesn't mean they've won the division yet, either. I'm willing to wait to the final whistle week 17.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
I never said he was. I've said many times that he's a good, but not great coach.

Sure, so I don't think we can necessarily make the same leap as those teams did by changing coach.

The thing I'm afraid of, to be honest, is a Schiano type coming in (because we need accountability etc) and complete disaster in the locker room. Or someone like Mooch - supposedly a proven winning NFL head coach. There are no guarantees with any coaching change. As a result, I tend to err towards consistency and conservatism when it comes to changing staff, I think there are more examples of teams getting worse or staying the same for a staff change than there are of a team getting better.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:
To me, the way this season has played out, and knowing what we now know about the talent level and ability of the players on this team, there is no excuse for the Lions not to win their division and they should win at least 1 playoff game. They are good enough to do that and if they don't that falls on the coaching staff.

Agree on winning the division. Once you're in the playoffs, there's always a bit more random chance. But if we don't win the division, I agree on having a serious issue with this staff.


December 9th, 2013, 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
As I stated in another thread weeks ago, Schwartz needs to go. A couple more wins and a division title won't change that perception of mine either. At the very least, his coordinators must go.

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December 9th, 2013, 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
For those that think there's nothing wrong with the coaching staff, please explain how the same play the Defense couldn't stop last year, is still a problem???
Quote:
0 -- Zone-read rushes attempted by Philadelphia in the first three quarters.
17 -- Zone read rushes by the Eagles in the fourth quarter, resulting in 204 rushing yards.

http://espn.go.com/blog/detroit-lions/p ... 34-20-loss
Is it that the players can't defend a zone read? or could it be the coaches neglected to teach/coach them??? Well, maybe neglected is too strong, maybe they just don't know HOW to defend it.. ](*,)

I also heard something at the beginning of the broadcast that drove me nuts...one of the announcers (Lynch?) said that Detroit doesn't concern themselves with the turnovers. Really? If that's true, its just MORE proof Schwartz needs to be fired.

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December 9th, 2013, 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
More examples....
MLive wrote:
3 things we learned about the Detroit Lions, including that coaching hasn't been good enough
By Kyle Meinke
on December 09, 2013 at 11:27 AM, updated December 09, 2013 at 11:32 AM

PHILADELPHIA -- Have the Detroit Lions hit a speed bump, after losing three of their past four games?

Or is this a legitimate slump?

Either way, they have not performed to expectations and continue to squander late leads against teams it either could or should beat. And that should fall at least partially on the coaching.

That and two other nuggets we learned about the Lions in a 34-20 loss in Philadelphia:

The Lions are headed the wrong way. They remain in first place, sure, but they've lost three of their past four games now and will fall to the No. 4 seed in the NFC. The offense remains turnover prone, and the defense inconsistent. This game could have gotten ugly, fast, if it weren't for Jeremy Ross' two special teams touchdowns. Detroit scored only one offensive touchdown, and now it has to pick itself up heading into Monday Night Football, or imperil the season derailed. They shouldn't be in this position, which leads to the second point ...

The coaching hasn't been good enough. The Lions are heading the wrong way, and it hasn't been due to a talent deficiency. They lost to the Steelers, Buccaneers and Eagles, teams they match up well with -- especially, ahem, the Bucs at home -- and held fourth-quarter leads in each game. Coaching, then, is at least part of the problem because Detroit continues to fall short against teams with similar or lesser talent. Take the Philly game as an example: Both teams played in the same conditions, yet it was Detroit that had seven fumbles, losing three, while Philly had just one and didn't lose it. Detroit had nine penalties, while Philly had one. Detroit had a 14-0 lead and one-time edge in yardage of 131 to minus-1, yet watched the Eagles zoom past them after making halftime adjustments. Execution is always part of the problem, but this falls squarely on the coaching as well.

Jeremy Ross is turning into a yet another significant surprise contributor. Say what you will about the coaching, but Detroit's personnel moves have been fabulous. We've talked extensively about the talent pouring in from the draft -- Larry Warford, Ezekiel Ansah, Sam Martin, Devin Taylor -- and there's even the undrafted rookies like LaAdrian Waddle and Joseph Fauria. But the front office and scouting departments deserve major praise for also identifying other teams' castaways who could help here. Rashean Mathis and C.J. Mosley are good examples, and Ross is the latest. The receiver and return man was released by Green Bay in September, but has bloomed in Detroit. He scored his first touchdown last week, and his returns against Philly were the Lions' best offense. At times, he was their only offense. Ross returned both a kick and punt for touchdowns, even though the deep snow could have neutralized the special teams game. He deserves major praise for producing so quickly here, and so do the front office people who brought him in.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/20 ... he_12.html

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December 9th, 2013, 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
That said, IF Mayhew or Bill Jr fire Schwartz I'd like to see someone like Tom Coughlin come in to instill some discipline. IMO the that's the biggest problem; no discipline. They're a soft team that continues to cause their own problems. Good teams do not beat themselves. They have the talent to win; they just need the right coach to get them there.
Been hearing that Shanahan might get the axe soon, wonder what he could do with this team.......

Shanny would probably be an upgrade.

Also, one more thing to add for those who think the coach doesn't make that much difference or shouldn't be fired. Look at San Francisco 3 years ago or KC last year. 3 years ago San Fran was 6-10 in a really weak NFC West. They weren't seen as anything too special. Then Harbaugh takes over and magically they became a 13-3 team? Did they overhaul the roster? Nope. Here's the list of free agents they signed: David Baas, Tony Wragge, Chris Patrick, Barry Sims, Alex Smith (re-signed), Troy Smith, Brian Westbrook, Demetric Evans, Ray McDonald (re-signed), Travis LaBoy, Aubrayo Franklin, Manny Lawson, Takeo Spikes, William James, Dashon Goldson (re-signed), C. J. Spillman (re-signed), Jeff Reed. The only of those guys who was seen as any good at the time was Spikes and maybe Goldson. Nobody else was a major addition there. What about draft picks? Here they are: Aldon Smith (stud), Colin Kaepernick (good player, but didn't do anything until last year), Chris Culliver,, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Ronald Johnson, Colin Jones, Bruce Miller, Mike Person, Curtis Holcomb. Smith is really the only difference maker in that bunch. The rest didn't make any big difference. So what changed? The coach. The mentality. How players are held accountable. How mistakes are tolerated. All those things. They got the right coach and he made all the difference for them.

So how about KC from last year to this year? Last year they were 2-14. Sure they went out and got a new QB in Alex Smith, but he's hardly a franchise guy. He's solid, but nothing spectacular. Other than him they didn't add anyone great. Their draft picks likewise haven't done much for them. So they basically have the same roster that couldn't win for the past few years, and they bring in the right coach and suddenly they're one of the best teams in the league. Imagine that!

My point here is that in both cases, you have teams who were clearly talented, but weren't getting it done. Then the right coach was brought in and voila, winning teams. It has happened many, many, many times throughout the history of modern sports. It's not rocket science. Some coaches are able to get teams to elite levels, and some aren't. As I said before, Schwartz is (in my opinion) a Norv Turner type coach: he's good at getting the team to a certain level, but then can't seem to take them over the hump. I think we're seeing the Lions in exactly that situation. Good enough that they should be winning, but not well coached enough to do so consistently. It's time for a change.

this Lions team is NOTHING like the Chiefs or 49er teams you mentioned

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December 9th, 2013, 6:47 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Killwill25 wrote:
this Lions team is NOTHING like the Chiefs or 49er teams you mentioned


You're right. The Lions have a better roster than those teams. Why? Because neither of those teams had a QB like Stafford, or a receiver like CJ. Yes, the Lions have weak spots on their roster, but so does every other team in the league. No team is absolutely stacked at every spot among the starting 22.

The Lions, however, are VERY much like the Chiefs and 49ers in that they are universally accepted to have a talented roster, yet are vastly underachieving for the season. And there's quite a few analysts, many of them either former players or coaches, who have said that the team is its own worst enemy, and that it is questionable coaching that is causing it. I don't always agree with the analysts about everything, but I can't find any fault in their deductions here. The Lions have more than enough talent to win their games. They've lost three of their last four games, and were leading each of those in the fourth quarter. That's unforgivable. They could have had the NFCN locked up right now, had they won even two of those games.

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December 9th, 2013, 7:27 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Hate to say it, but I'm finally on the fire Schwartz train.

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December 10th, 2013, 2:52 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
Killwill25 wrote:
this Lions team is NOTHING like the Chiefs or 49er teams you mentioned


You're right. The Lions have a better roster than those teams. Why? Because neither of those teams had a QB like Stafford, or a receiver like CJ. Yes, the Lions have weak spots on their roster, but so does every other team in the league. No team is absolutely stacked at every spot among the starting 22.

The Lions, however, are VERY much like the Chiefs and 49ers in that they are universally accepted to have a talented roster, yet are vastly underachieving for the season. And there's quite a few analysts, many of them either former players or coaches, who have said that the team is its own worst enemy, and that it is questionable coaching that is causing it. I don't always agree with the analysts about everything, but I can't find any fault in their deductions here. The Lions have more than enough talent to win their games. They've lost three of their last four games, and were leading each of those in the fourth quarter. That's unforgivable. They could have had the NFCN locked up right now, had they won even two of those games.

Exactly. Killwill, you can say whatever you want and not back it up with any facts or info, and if that makes you feel better, go for it. But when you look at the whole situation and analyze the facts, regardless of whether the Lions are like KC/SF or not, they are a talented team that is underachieving, and that is unacceptable.

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December 10th, 2013, 3:28 am
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