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 Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go 
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Back to the possible coaching replacements - I was high on Gruden (albeit improbable) until I read that no coach who won a Superbowl, retired, and came back to coach has ever brought a team to a Superbowl so that leaves us with coordinators and college coaches:
Who (out of those coaches) stand out in your mind as a good choice for the Lions?

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December 19th, 2013, 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Bears' run D is pathetic. Why do I get the feeling that they'll lose this week against the Eagles and we'll win, but the Pack will ultimately win the division?

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December 19th, 2013, 3:37 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Bears' run D is pathetic. Why do I get the feeling that they'll lose this week against the Eagles and we'll win, but the Pack will ultimately win the division?


Well...In all fairness, the Pack's D is pretty damned horrendous too...they just get T.O.'s is all.

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December 19th, 2013, 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Before we go too far what about the position coaches that were brought in this year and have done a GREAT job for the Lions. Washburn, and the O line coach have taken two areas and improved them tremendously. My issue with Monday night was that they kept running stunts to try and get to the QB, and it seemed to work against the run mostly, but they couldn't seem to penetrate the line that was supposed to be horrible. Somehow, they made a bad line look really good. It happened in Pitt, Philly, and Baltimore. SO is it an East Coast Curse? :P

Actually, what I'm saying is that position coaching has upgraded this year, and somebody has to get credit for that. I think we need to upgrade our QB coach, and OC, ESPECIALLY since Schwartz is a "defensive guru" we need his counterbalance in Offense.

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December 19th, 2013, 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Before we go too far what about the position coaches that were brought in this year and have done a GREAT job for the Lions. Washburn, and the O line coach have taken two areas and improved them tremendously. My issue with Monday night was that they kept running stunts to try and get to the QB, and it seemed to work against the run mostly, but they couldn't seem to penetrate the line that was supposed to be horrible. Somehow, they made a bad line look really good. It happened in Pitt, Philly, and Baltimore. SO is it an East Coast Curse? :P

Actually, what I'm saying is that position coaching has upgraded this year, and somebody has to get credit for that. I think we need to upgrade our QB coach, and OC, ESPECIALLY since Schwartz is a "defensive guru" we need his counterbalance in Offense.
Good points,WarEr. But when I read the article below and listen to Damien Woody's take in the video, it seems to come back to Schwartz. I'll admit I have no idea what the real issue is or how to fix it. I guess when it comes down to it, who do you believe? The players? coaches? so-called 'experts'? dontknow.gif

I've been trying to remember the early days of Tom Coughlin in New York and Bill Belichik in New England and what their early seasons were like. Did they just take their teams to the top? or did they struggle for a couple years? Seems to me I recall a couple Giants seasons before the Super Bowls where fans wanted Tom run out of town for under-performance, the players were complaining about him, etc and now they have 2 Championships. I guess what I'm saying is I'd hate to see how Jacksonville & Cleveland must feel after firing their coaches only to see them win Super Bowls elsewhere.


ESPN wrote:
Reggie Bush: Lions lack discipline
Updated: December 19, 2013, 5:54 PM ET
ESPN.com news services



Reggie Bush said Wednesday that the Detroit Lions' lack of discipline has hurt the team during a span in which it has lost four of five games and ceded control of its playoff destiny.

"It could be from penalties or it could be from turnovers or it could be from how we finished the games in fourth quarters," the running back said. "It's not one specific play or moment in a game. It's the total game. It's how we play."

Bush, however, pinned the team's discipline problems on the players and not coach Jim Schwartz, whom he called a "disciplinarian."

"It's not a coaches' thing. It's a players' thing. We can do a better job all across the board," Bush said. "As far as an offense standpoint, turn the ball over and that's the discipline issue, and that's something we have to correct, because obviously, as you see, it'll lose you games."

Schwartz said Wednesday that he wasn't aware of Bush's comments but that he doesn't believe the Lions have a discipline problem.

Receiver Nate Burleson agreed that the onus falls on the players to fix their issues.

"When you look at the games and look at the losses," he said, "you can almost always point out a few physical errors that we made, whether it is turning over the ball, making the big play on defense in there, special-teams breakdown.

"Those are physical errors on guys with the jerseys on. So I'm not going to sit there and say coaching needs to be better or Jim needs to do a better job. It's plain and simple. It's plays we need to make as a team, and we haven't made those plays. So people are going to find someone to blame, and if they want to blame somebody, blame me, blame us. I'm good with that."

The Lions (7-7) have dropped from first place to third in the NFC North as a result of their recent rough patch. Instead of being in control of their postseason fate, they must now beat the New York Giants at home and Minnesota Vikings on the road and also hope the Chicago Bears (8-6) and Green Bay Packers (7-6-1) both lose at least once to have a shot.

ESPN.com Lions reporter Michael Rothstein and information from The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10164 ... roit-lions

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December 20th, 2013, 9:51 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Schwartz has had 5 years to turn this team around. Has that happened? Absolutely. Consider the starting point. This was probably the least talented franchise in the NFL.
Now they have a young solid talent base, and at times play spectacular football, and should only get better. Will there be bumps in the road along the way? Absolutely. Think that is inevitable. Some of that was apparent on Monday night, when Stafford was being pressured often. Our young O-line (3 new starters this year, 2 of them rookies) struggled to keep the pressure at bay. The Ravens have a good coaching staff and had a good defensive game plan to attack the Lions.
Now, I'm not here in support of the coaching staff. They have made miscues along the way, but considering we hired a head coach with no previous experience in that area, maybe we should have expected the growing pains.
I expect the Lions to win their last 2 games and finish 9-7. Good chance we claim the division. See the Bears losing at Philly, and the Pack losing one of their last two games.
If JS and company survive, fine, I can live with that.


December 20th, 2013, 11:54 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Dude, the Lion's don't have a struggling, young O-line. It may be young, but it's good -- the Lions have given up far fewer sacks than most teams.

When Schwartz came in, the Lions were literally at rock bottom. There was nowhere to go but up. They seriously couldn't get any worse even if they had tried.

Is the Lion's improvement from rock bottom to mediocre on Schwartz or Mayhew or both? I would give more of the credit to Mayhew, as he's actually delivered a somewhat talented roster. You can't say Schwartz is a total bum, but what can you point to to say he's such a great coach? Can you show a player or two that's been coached up since he's been here? I can't. Maybe Levy.


December 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
liontrax wrote:
Schwartz has had 5 years to turn this team around. Has that happened? Absolutely. Consider the starting point. This was probably the least talented franchise in the NFL.
Now they have a young solid talent base, and at times play spectacular football, and should only get better. Will there be bumps in the road along the way? Absolutely. Think that is inevitable. Some of that was apparent on Monday night, when Stafford was being pressured often. Our young O-line (3 new starters this year, 2 of them rookies) struggled to keep the pressure at bay. The Ravens have a good coaching staff and had a good defensive game plan to attack the Lions.
Now, I'm not here in support of the coaching staff. They have made miscues along the way, but considering we hired a head coach with no previous experience in that area, maybe we should have expected the growing pains.
I expect the Lions to win their last 2 games and finish 9-7. Good chance we claim the division. See the Bears losing at Philly, and the Pack losing one of their last two games.
If JS and company survive, fine, I can live with that.


So it doesnt bother you that with 1:10 left it the game it was going to be obvious that the lions would be down by 2 points and not a single T.O. was called to try and get the ball back with time on the clock? that doesnt bother you? or do you think someone OTHER than the coach should be held accountable for that?

The plain fact is Swartz flat out gave up on the game and his team with 32 seconds left on the clock with 3 timeouts left and only down by what would have been 5 points (assuming Baltimore made the Fg after it's 3 run attempts). How can you possibly say he is even doing a mediocre job when he does that? How can he ask the team to give it's all when he quits?

He is not a good HC. He may be a phenominal coordinator...I dont know...but he is NOT a good HC!

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December 20th, 2013, 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
liontrax wrote:
Schwartz has had 5 years to turn this team around. Has that happened? Absolutely. Consider the starting point. This was probably the least talented franchise in the NFL.


I completely disagree. The talent on the roster has NOTHING to do with Schwartz. He has underachieved with the same basic core players for the past two seasons. Time to say good bye.

liontrax wrote:
Now they have a young solid talent base, and at times play spectacular football, and should only get better. Will there be bumps in the road along the way? Absolutely. Think that is inevitable. Some of that was apparent on Monday night, when Stafford was being pressured often. Our young O-line (3 new starters this year, 2 of them rookies) struggled to keep the pressure at bay. The Ravens have a good coaching staff and had a good defensive game plan to attack the Lions.


Playing spectacular football 'at times' isn't enough to warrant him keeping his job. That spectacular football has managed to take them from being in control of the division just five weeks ago, to now sitting in third place with only a slim chance of getting into the playoffs. That's not acceptable, particularly when you have been coaching this team for five years and have suffered no significant injuries to any of your starters.

liontrax wrote:
Now, I'm not here in support of the coaching staff. They have made miscues along the way, but considering we hired a head coach with no previous experience in that area, maybe we should have expected the growing pains.
I expect the Lions to win their last 2 games and finish 9-7. Good chance we claim the division. See the Bears losing at Philly, and the Pack losing one of their last two games.
If JS and company survive, fine, I can live with that.


Five years is still growing pains? I don't think so. If Schwartz hasn't managed to figure out how to get the most from this team by now, he never will. Even if the Lions manage to somehow win the division, it will be more due to the Bears and Packers having been without some of their key players for portions of the season than because the Lions outplayed them.

How long is mediocrity to be accepted before you say enough? Acceptance of mediocrity by the Fords is what gave us Matt Millen for as long as we had him here. Waiting for him to 'figure it out' is what kept him here. Schwartz certainly hasn't hurt this franchise like Millen did, but he has had five years to do what need to be done. He hasn't. Mayhew built this roster, not Schwartz.

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December 20th, 2013, 1:02 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
liontrax wrote:
Schwartz has had 5 years to turn this team around. Has that happened? Absolutely. Consider the starting point. This was probably the least talented franchise in the NFL.


I completely disagree. The talent on the roster has NOTHING to do with Schwartz. He has underachieved with the same basic core players for the past two seasons. Time to say good bye.

liontrax wrote:
Now they have a young solid talent base, and at times play spectacular football, and should only get better. Will there be bumps in the road along the way? Absolutely. Think that is inevitable. Some of that was apparent on Monday night, when Stafford was being pressured often. Our young O-line (3 new starters this year, 2 of them rookies) struggled to keep the pressure at bay. The Ravens have a good coaching staff and had a good defensive game plan to attack the Lions.


Playing spectacular football 'at times' isn't enough to warrant him keeping his job. That spectacular football has managed to take them from being in control of the division just five weeks ago, to now sitting in third place with only a slim chance of getting into the playoffs. That's not acceptable, particularly when you have been coaching this team for five years and have suffered no significant injuries to any of your starters.

liontrax wrote:
Now, I'm not here in support of the coaching staff. They have made miscues along the way, but considering we hired a head coach with no previous experience in that area, maybe we should have expected the growing pains.
I expect the Lions to win their last 2 games and finish 9-7. Good chance we claim the division. See the Bears losing at Philly, and the Pack losing one of their last two games.
If JS and company survive, fine, I can live with that.


Five years is still growing pains? I don't think so. If Schwartz hasn't managed to figure out how to get the most from this team by now, he never will. Even if the Lions manage to somehow win the division, it will be more due to the Bears and Packers having been without some of their key players for portions of the season than because the Lions outplayed them.

How long is mediocrity to be accepted before you say enough? Acceptance of mediocrity by the Fords is what gave us Matt Millen for as long as we had him here. Waiting for him to 'figure it out' is what kept him here. Schwartz certainly hasn't hurt this franchise like Millen did, but he has had five years to do what need to be done. He hasn't. Mayhew built this roster, not Schwartz.



All good points m2k, and I agree. But If the Lions win the next 2 we'll be stuck with him for at least another year. As I said, I'm not here in support of the coaching staff.
Agreed, Mayhew did build this roster. When I said " consider the starting point " I meant there was no where to go but up.
I feel that the Lions could have hired several different head coaches and achieved the same results or better.


December 20th, 2013, 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
IF they win the next two AND GB loses one AND Chicago loses one. Winning out doesn't guarantee anything.

Mayhew wanted Schwartz gone last year, but Jr. wouldn't pay the buyout, as reported by ESPN wednesday. Even if they make the playoffs, I think Schwartz is gone unless they win 6 in a row, which they haven't done since 1995, and make it to the Super Bowl.


December 20th, 2013, 1:39 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
njroar wrote:
IF they win the next two AND GB loses one AND Chicago loses one. Winning out doesn't guarantee anything.

Mayhew wanted Schwartz gone last year, but Jr. wouldn't pay the buyout, as reported by ESPN wednesday. Even if they make the playoffs, I think Schwartz is gone unless they win 6 in a row, which they haven't done since 1995, and make it to the Super Bowl.


And ESPN knows this how? I think they are making news now just to pile on and have something to talk about.


December 20th, 2013, 2:50 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
TheRealWags wrote:

I've been trying to remember the early days of Tom Coughlin in New York and Bill Belichik in New England and what their early seasons were like. Did they just take their teams to the top? or did they struggle for a couple years? Seems to me I recall a couple Giants seasons before the Super Bowls where fans wanted Tom run out of town for under-performance, the players were complaining about him, etc and now they have 2 Championships. I guess what I'm saying is I'd hate to see how Jacksonville & Cleveland must feel after firing their coaches only to see them win Super Bowls elsewhere.


Bellicheck was Ok in Cleveland whilet working with a sucky situation, but the consensus was they were trending upward when the entire coaching staff was let go, and then he went to NE and made History. Coughlin was a Harsh Disciplinarian and had issues with his Players, and was almost fired. He Actually Relaxed a Little (which still being a "tough love" coach) and within 2 seasons they made that 1st SB.


December 20th, 2013, 3:05 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
Acceptance of mediocrity by the Fords is what gave us Matt Millen for as long as we had him here. Waiting for him to 'figure it out' is what kept him here. Schwartz certainly hasn't hurt this franchise like Millen did, but he has had five years to do what need to be done. He hasn't. Mayhew built this roster, not Schwartz.



This.

This This This.

Marty Schottenheimer was fired after a 14-2 season. Lovie Smith fired after 10-6 season AND going to SB in 2006.

Jim Schwartz? He goes 2-14 with his first year. Ok. New coach, horrible team. Understandable. Then 6-10, Ok so were getting better. 10-6. Playoffs. Maybe NOW we have our coach and we should only build on this and be better next year. Next year: 4-12 NOT ACCEPTABLE This year, 7-7 and will probably miss the playoffs after looking very good a few weeks ago to win the division. Back to same ol' Lions football. 5 season, ONE playoff birth. Again, not acceptable. In baseball, batting .372 is great. In football, it is embarrassing. But like M2K said, to the Fords that IS acceptable. And that is why i have zero confidence in this organization firing him.

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December 20th, 2013, 3:41 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
I'm happy to give Schwartz a pass on his first two years here. Calculating his "batting average" based on those seasons is unfair, IMO.

10-6, 4-12 and 9-7 (on the hypothetical that's where we end up) isn't same old Lions to me (although that may be because my "formative years" as a Lions fan were the Millen years). Is it good enough to keep his job? IMO, if Schwartz compiles that record he's been an average NFL coach - in the playoffs one year, miss by a lot another, contend another is about the batting average an average NFL team should hit (based on 12 out of 32 teams a year making the playoffs).

The NFL is a damn tough league. Everything is geared for teams to be lifted off the bottom, and dragged down from the top. Is compiling an average record so bad the guy must go? Are we so confident we can get someone better? Doesn't the history of the NFL show that chopping and changing constantly is not the way to build a successful franchise?

I know that there are many, and very good, counter arguments to all of the above. The bottom third of the NFL includes rebuilding teams like the Lions the first two years, so why exclude them from his record? Doesn't the Lions' recent history show that sticking with the wrong people (Millen) can be a disaster? etc etc.

I can see all the arguments for getting rid of Schwartz. I think that if we miss the playoffs, I'll come down on that side too (the "think" is that if we win out, go 9-7 and just miss out I'm not sure how I'll feel - anything worse and I'll definitely want him gone). I just think it's not as clear cut as many of the posts in this thread suggest, so thought I'd try and add a bit of balance from someone who's likely to agree he should be gone, but at least sees some of the other side (so please don't kill me for it! :D ).


December 20th, 2013, 4:11 pm
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