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 Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go 
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
GB lose. We had a shot. We blew it. Players as much to blame as the coaches, IMO.

49ers wrote:
I also don't think the Lions have as much talent as some people here think they do.

Agree. This is not a talented roster. Effort is a talent, too.


December 22nd, 2013, 8:54 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Grink wrote:
Yup, don't care about the $12M, so the fords can't get another Ivory backscratcher. Schwartz needs to pack his office tonight and be escorted off the premises.

Inexcusable that you play it so safe with 27 secs, 2 timeouts, and you need 20-30 yards for a FG.


They have played not to lose all season (and longer) and it cost a chance at victory in at least 4 losses this year in the final minute before half/end of game.


December 22nd, 2013, 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Quote:
CJ deserves a damn chance!
true, even though he's part of the damn problem

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December 22nd, 2013, 9:01 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Ok, does anyone else remember the Niners game a couple years ago when Schwartz was FRANTICALLY yelling at Harbaugh about a challenge? Something like "Know the rules, Harbaugh!" Then last year, he tried challenging a play that he couldn't, was penalized and the Lions lost the game as a result? Also, after that Niners game he got all butt hurt about a hard handshake, and during the presser, said Harbaugh was yelling profanities at him? Really? The winning coach shook your hand too hard and yelled profanities at you? That cross-eyed retard should have been fired last year. Way too much talent on that team to be so mediocre.


December 23rd, 2013, 5:28 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Keep Gunther?

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December 23rd, 2013, 5:47 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Killwill25 wrote:
Keep Gunther?

No. You don't hire a new head coach and then force him to keep coordinators. If the new head coach decides to keep Gunther, so be it. But the coach should decide.

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December 23rd, 2013, 6:24 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
After this game, its time for an exorcism. I was okay with keeping Schwartz and getting rid of Linehan. But, I think after this game, a complete purge is needed. Bring in a new HC and let him pick a new staff. I like the idea of Gruden running the show.

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December 23rd, 2013, 6:40 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
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Agree. This is not a talented roster. Effort is a talent, too.


Effort is a product of coaching.

Remember Mike Singletary's rant on Vernon Davis? "Can't win with him?" Then Harbaugh comes in and proceeds to "win with him."

The way I judge talent is a simple thought experiment: Suppose you were to cut every current Lion's player. Would the majority of them be out of the league and never play again? I don't think so -- I believe that most of them would get signed with another team, and a fair amount of them would start on other teams.


December 23rd, 2013, 10:01 am
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Pop Warner Vet

Joined: November 29th, 2005, 3:45 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
First off, Schwartz should have been fired at the end of last year. This was a waste of a season. Further proof that the Lions continue to make the wrong hire, then refuse to admit it soon enough. If they don't fire him now we'll know that they really are not interested in winning.

Secondly, Gruden won his Super Bowl in 2002. Think about how much the league has changed since then. His strategy was to "pound that rock". Well, pounding the rock as a primary offensive strategy with today's rules will get you ousted in a hurry, as other teams rack up forty through the air every week. My point is he's outdated, and nobody knows whether he, or Cowher, could even win in the NFL anymore.
The league has changed DRAMATICALLY in the past five years. The old idea of run the ball, stop the run and you win just doesn't apply anymore.

So the Lions should consider digging a little deeper than just sifting through the normal cache of semi-retired or rehashed coordinators. Personally, I'd like to see someone who has a focus on QB play, since Stafford clearly needs work on his mechanicals.


December 23rd, 2013, 10:19 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Blueskies wrote:

Effort is a product of coaching.

Remember Mike Singletary's rant on Vernon Davis? "Can't win with him?" Then Harbaugh comes in and proceeds to "win with him."

The way I judge talent is a simple thought experiment: Suppose you were to cut every current Lion's player. Would the majority of them be out of the league and never play again? I don't think so -- I believe that most of them would get signed with another team, and a fair amount of them would start on other teams.


Exactly. The whole point of coaching is to elevate talent. Is there any question that the talent the Lions have is under performing? Look at how inconsistent the D-line play is, look at Stafford's decision making and mechanics, look at the penalties and turnovers, look at the poor game management. If you're not going to evaluate a coach on these factors, what is good coaching based on?
This team has talent all right. Talent that isn't being pushed to reach its potential.


December 23rd, 2013, 10:24 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
I think "pound the rock" was more about work ethic than actually running the football. I remember Rich Gannon used to sling the ball all over the field. He was putting up 4-5k yards seasons back when it was far less common then it is today.

That said, I agree with you that it's been a long time since Gruden has been working. No guarantee he'll find success.


December 23rd, 2013, 10:51 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
UK Lion wrote:
GB lose. We had a shot. We blew it. Players as much to blame as the coaches, IMO.

49ers wrote:
I also don't think the Lions have as much talent as some people here think they do.

Agree. This is not a talented roster. Effort is a talent, too.


Effort is not a talent. Effort is a character, a quality of person. It is NOT a talent. Talent is body control, speed, accuracy, throwing the ball long, a quick release, quickness off the line, balance. Effort is a quality of the mind, not the body.

This team has the talent to get into the playoffs, and to succeed there. NFL former coaches and players have said it. I'll take their word for it. Calvin is an elite talent. Suh and Fairley are elite talents. Larry Warford, even in his rookie season, is an elite talent. Pettigrew is an elite talent as a blocking tight end. Levy had an elite season at linebacker. Glover Quin is a borderline elite talent at safety. Sam Martin seems to be emerging at punter as an elite talent. It remains to be seen if Ziggy Ansah is an elite pass rusher, or if Riley Reiff can be an elite left tackle. But already both are better than average at their positions. Stafford has the potential to be an elite QB. All that is missing is for him to gain his confidence back. His issues stem more from his mind than his body. Even his poor mechanics are a working of his mind.

This is a team that is a product of the coaches. Their lack of discipline, their lack of focus, poor decisions, etc. are all a product of the coaching. In the end, the players play the game, and they make those mistakes. The coaches are supposed to take WHATEVER measure is necessary to correct and discipline those responsible for the mistakes. Bush keeps fumbling....does he get kept from the game? Is LeShoure made active and Reggie made inactive? No and no. Stafford keeps screwing up in the fourth quarter, giving game after game away. Does he get pulled in favor of Shaun Hill, a player many feel is the best backup QB in the NFL today? Nope. The Lions are playing for a playoff spot, and the coaches are playing it safe rather than being aggressive and trying to put points on the board or gain momentum.

Schwartz had his chance. You can't fire an entire team. Ultimately, the head coach is responsible. That's how it is.

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December 23rd, 2013, 10:54 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
UK Lion wrote:
GB lose. We had a shot. We blew it. Players as much to blame as the coaches, IMO.

49ers wrote:
I also don't think the Lions have as much talent as some people here think they do.

Agree. This is not a talented roster. Effort is a talent, too.


agreed

its so easy for us as fans to blame the coaches or just the QB but at some point shouldn't the players have wanted this a little more. defense made one more stop here, came up with one more batted ball, lineman making one more block, one DB staying home with his assignment, etc they were really just 1-2 plays total in the past 15 games from going into the final week with a chance to clinch a division title/home playoff game. it sure didn't ever appear like the players ever knew that or took responsibility for there own season


December 24th, 2013, 12:15 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Quote:
This team has the talent to get into the playoffs, and to succeed there. NFL former coaches and players have said it. I'll take their word for it. Calvin is an elite talent.


okay im with you here

Quote:
Suh and Fairley are elite talents.


suh yes, fairley ehhh okay maybe a stretch. lets just say good not elite

Quote:
Larry Warford, even in his rookie season, is an elite talent


i agree he looks like he s well on his way

Quote:
Pettigrew is an elite talent as a blocking tight end


ehhh, even if he was an elite blocking TE by definition isn't that something that is highly valued in todays NFL? also, he s a good blocker but not elite. and you gotta downgrade him for how unreliable he s been in the passing game where they ve wanted a lot out of him.

Quote:
. Levy had an elite season at linebacker.


statistically yes he did but i also saw this guy getting abused by chris ogbonnaya, not really responding to anything going on in front of him vs the Eagles and just not really that good play to play. ill give him credit for the big plays bc we ve seen tons of those tipped, batted, errant passes fall to the turf but I don't think he ll ever get near 6 INTs in a season ever again. I will see him be the same fairly unreliable player in the run game for the rest of his career. if this is an elite NFL linebacker than we re all being shammed by the lack of talent in the NFL.

Quote:
Glover Quin is a borderline elite talent at safety.

he s very good, i don't now about elite but i don't have anything bad to say about him. wish levy could fight off blocks and play the run the way Quinn does.

Quote:
Sam Martin seems to be emerging at punter as an elite talent.

i would just say he has elite talent in his leg. i don't remember ever seeing a punter choke as bad as he did vs Cincy or see a guy kick out of bounds twice in a row and angrily blame the ball and i don't really buy the explanation for why he was able to still punt but not continue kicking off at the end of the season.

Quote:
It remains to be seen if Ziggy Ansah is an elite pass rusher,

i think he will but he s not there yet. we ll see what happens if Schwartz is gone and they move to a more complicated scheme. he reminded me of Darko Milicic when he was picked but I think he ll be the guy to actually realize his talent.

Quote:
or if Riley Reiff can be an elite left tackle.

no, not even close but he ll be an average one for a long time

Quote:
Stafford has the potential to be an elite QB

yes but that will require an above average coach. i don't think he lacks confidence - i think he s been instructed that what he s doing is acceptable


December 24th, 2013, 12:30 am
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
The Legend wrote:

agreed

its so easy for us as fans to blame the coaches or just the QB but at some point shouldn't the players have wanted this a little more. defense made one more stop here, came up with one more batted ball, lineman making one more block, one DB staying home with his assignment, etc they were really just 1-2 plays total in the past 15 games from going into the final week with a chance to clinch a division title/home playoff game. it sure didn't ever appear like the players ever knew that or took responsibility for there own season


Yes, the players SHOULD have wanted this more. But let's examine why they didn't. Players who respect their coaches put forth a better effort, and yield better results. Coaches inspire as much as anything else. The players are saying all the standard things in the press about how they are to blame, and that Schwartz is a good coach. That's all BS. Good coaches don't need to have their players defending them like this. Most people can agree that this is the most talent the Lions have had on this roster in a LONG time. You'd have to go back pretty far, before Millen and more, to find a roster that has this much talent wearing a Lions uniform. As much as folks around here bashed on Wayne Fontes, he got the most from his players. What he did, or how he did it, I'm not sure. But all I know is that Schwartz isn't getting it done. Five years is enough time to show year over year improvement. The last two seasons have been a lesson in underachievement and terrible sideline decisions. Players aren't the only ones playing the games. The coaching staff is involved as well. Coaching decisions have just as much impact on the game as the players. And Schwartz has been a clusterfuck of bad decisions.

If what has happened in various cities that have undergone coaching changes doesn't convince you that a coaching change can have a positive impact, I don't know what will convince you. Is it a risk to change coaches? Yes. But you have to ask yourself, are you willing to live on with the underachieving mediocrity you have been witness to under Schwartz? I am not.
And I believe there are many others who aren't willing to watch a rekindling of the past two seasons. I'm afraid that's all we'll get out of this staff.

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December 24th, 2013, 2:41 am
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