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 JBC should stsy or should he go? 
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Post JBC should stsy or should he go?
I'm stuck on this one. I don't like the way he has been calling plays, but I am not sure if it is all him or if Patricia has him on a leash or if he is limited by Stafford.
One thing is certain this season, Stafford is not what he has been. I haven't been one of his fans, but he has made strides in the last few years until this season. At the very least he was decisive and accurate coming into this season. Not this year. Even before Tate was traded and Lang was put on IR Stafford checked way too much down. It has only gotten worse since.
In the Cardinals game the Lions had established a run on first down mentality and it was perfect for a good play action pass, yet they never attempted one on first down. At least as far as I can recall. Why?
Stafford has a back issue and I can see the Lions trying to limit the big throws down field, not to mention limiting the chance someone else slams him like Donald did last week. Still, they did throw down field, so first down...?
I would also add in the failure to utiize Zenner util the last game even though Riddick is largely ineffective as a running back and Blount has been inconsistent (IMO). I'm not saying Zenner is a great back, but he showed against Dallas only to disappear from the play calling after that, and I'm betting it happens again.
If Patricia has not been on board with JBC going all dink and dunk I think he has to go. If Paricia has been limiting JBC by telling him to go all dink and dunk Patricia needs to stop. I'm thinking he has to go.
I'm also thinking the Lions need to draft a qb rather high.


December 13th, 2018, 7:01 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Quote:
I'm stuck on this one. I don't like the way he has been calling plays, but I am not sure if it is all him or if Patricia has him on a leash or if he is limited by Stafford.
One thing is certain this season, Stafford is not what he has been. I haven't been one of his fans, but he has made strides in the last few years until this season. At the very least he was decisive and accurate coming into this season. Not this year. Even before Tate was traded and Lang was put on IR Stafford checked way too much down. It has only gotten worse since.


I dont think he s checking down, the line has been so overmatched in some contests that the game plan is quick hitting plays and seeing if someone can get some yards after the catch. The game vs the Bears (thanksgiving) and Rams would be the most obvious example. Thats not regression, thats an offensive line that cant protect matched with specialist group that has one decent option. The game plan is to make those short throws and the key to that is Stafford is throwing there as his first read. I cant blame Stafford or Cooter, really. If Bruce Ellington is your centerpiece and no other team wanted him a month ago, its going to affect your production. Theo Riddick is literally a check down player, try making an offense around him. The TEs are next to worthless. Kenny Golladay is the only player that can be in a featured role but teams can bracket him and take there chances someone else will beat them. The depth on the WR group after Ellington is just a bunch of guys that should be playing special teams only. Remember Stafford put balls on the hands of Riddick vs the Bears and Golloday against the Rams that change the ending of those games.

Quote:
In the Cardinals game the Lions had established a run on first down mentality and it was perfect for a good play action pass, yet they never attempted one on first down. At least as far as I can recall. Why?
Stafford has a back issue and I can see the Lions trying to limit the big throws down field, not to mention limiting the chance someone else slams him like Donald did last week. Still, they did throw down field, so first down...?
I would also add in the failure to utiize Zenner util the last game even though Riddick is largely ineffective as a running back and Blount has been inconsistent (IMO). I'm not saying Zenner is a great back, but he showed against Dallas only to disappear from the play calling after that, and I'm betting it happens again.
If Patricia has not been on board with JBC going all dink and dunk I think he has to go. If Paricia has been limiting JBC by telling him to go all dink and dunk Patricia needs to stop. I'm thinking he has to go.
I'm also thinking the Lions need to draft a qb rather high.


They knew that Arizona cant hurt them offensively so they called a safe game waiting for Rosen to make a mistake. I expect a similar game plan against Buffalo. Nobody wants to see teams challenging for 10 sacks again but it could happen anytime the Lions fall behind too early in a game. Zenner, Riddick, Blount - these guys are rolll players - Im disappointed in the front office for there inability to find talent at the position. Other teams are pulling UDFAs off the street with more than talent than the runners the Lions are employing. Bob Quinn gave up on the season before anyone else in Detroit when he traded for Tate but he s not been using the remainder of this season looking for answers that might help next season, at least not the way most other teams without a chance are trying.

As far as JBC as the OC going forward. I dont see it happening. Most of the season we ve seen the Lions offense trying to operate as a run first offense. Running on 1st and 2nd down regardless of outcome and then seeing what Stafford can do on 3rd down. Its been an offensive system that at times has shown effectiveness running the ball but even in those games it came at the expense of Stafford finding a rhythm bc of the predictability. 1st and 2nd down run, 3rd down they know you re passing. Most of this is "executive strategy" and coming from the head coach. I also dont think mixing in an OL coach's blocking scheme into an existing playbook is such an easy task. It seemed it increased the number of completely missed assignments and confusion up front to near Lombardi level. Bottom line I dont think Patricia and Cooter are a good match. Maybe they would be if Patricia just let Cooter do his thing. Its clear this isnt the offense that Cooter would run if given autonomy and its also clear that Patricia is stubborn and unlikely to change much. The Lions already have a New England inbred in waiting for the OC position in current QB coach George Godsey despite him being a major downgrade as a QB coach and being rather unimpressive his whole career. He wont be any better but will be easier for Patricia to work with.


December 15th, 2018, 12:30 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Jafo wrote:
I'm also thinking the Lions need to draft a qb rather high.


Stafford is one of the top half QBs in the league, they aren't drafting a QB high. He is 30 years old, meaning he could have another 10 good years in the league. Do you remember the Lions QB situation pre-Stafford? I do... No thanks!

As for JBC, he is a gonner. Patricia needs a scapegoat for this season and he is the easy choice. Opponents have consistently said they can read his plays - that is not good. If you are the QB with a suspect line and a defense that can read what you are about to do - as the QB says when he changes plays - kill, kill, kill!

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December 15th, 2018, 9:28 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
JBC isn't a scapegoat he is an actual problem. He helped the Lions offense when he took over as OC, but he hasn't improved over his time in the position. JBC has been doing his predictable 1st down run his entire time with the Lions and IMO the only reason the Lions felt like a run first team is because the 1st down runs were finally working.


December 15th, 2018, 10:15 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Ok so we agree JBC goes but what do the Lions do to fix the offense. TJ Lang shouldnt be far behind Cooter but the rest of the OL figures to be back. Willson should be a goner but maybe they bring Roberts and Toilolo back. They could probably upgrade the depth at RB. They ll need a starting guard, a 2nd string RB, a starting TE and they need a WR that can get open quickly off the line. Marquise Brown the WR from Oklahoma looks like the type of WR that could make for a viable Golden Tate replacement but he might be a first round pick. On the other hand, its hard to argue that the Lions have bigger needs than someone that can get some separation. Crosby could be the only in house option with a chance at the starting guard spot. At TE if Hakeem Valles could barely stick on the roster let alone see the field in a year with the position as weak as it is now then he s not likely a viable option either.

A trade down and then getting in a spot to take Brown without overdrafting him might be the way to go.


December 15th, 2018, 11:02 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
I don't see a reason to go after a 1st round WR when they have both Golladay and Jones already. Seems it would be smarter to look for a guy that scores high athletically and falls out of the first because of size. I mean if Brown makes sense at the spot they are at I could understand picking him, but I wouldn't be trying to maneuver around the draft just to target a WR. I think its pretty hard to say what the offense needs given we don't know if JBC will be back or what the new scheme would be if they changed OCs.


December 18th, 2018, 12:42 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Officially out of the playoffs now, so I guess that ends a disappointing year. Possibly my least favourite as a Lions fan since 2009.

Got to hope that it was a step backwards from last season in order to take a more sustainable long-term step forwards. But this coaching staff and GM do not fill me with confidence. I didn't see growing pains, or things that looked like they were trending in the right direction (beyond the run D going from god awful to ok, with the addition of Harrison). I just saw a bad football team.

I think JBC does need to go. I am far from convinced that he is the problem (using significant resources to overhaul the O-Line, but at best standing pat, seems the bigger issue on that side of the ball to me) but it seems clear that, in tandem with Patricia, he is not the solution. Personally I think it will end up being like 2007: D minded HC can't say the D was a problem, OC is sacked, nothing gets any better.

The hope for this season was that the new O-Line plus Johnson would find a run game, and that this would in turn make the passing game (a previous strength) even more dangerous. Instead we improved with the run, but went backwards with the pass game. I don't think going from WR being an area of depth to one of weakness helped much with that.

So I guess we will see what BQ does this off-season. Plenty of holes on the roster to fill. Will he fill a couple through the draft, and a one or two middle-class FA pickups, or will he finally go for it and make a big move?


December 18th, 2018, 9:33 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
rao wrote:
I don't see a reason to go after a 1st round WR when they have both Golladay and Jones already. Seems it would be smarter to look for a guy that scores high athletically and falls out of the first because of size. I mean if Brown makes sense at the spot they are at I could understand picking him, but I wouldn't be trying to maneuver around the draft just to target a WR. I think its pretty hard to say what the offense needs given we don't know if JBC will be back or what the new scheme would be if they changed OCs.


Im not sure Jones and Golladay complement each other very well. Neither gets much separation. Neither runs a complete route tree. Neither is particularly quick for the position, although they at least have deep speed. The depth at the position is nonexistent beyond them. At TE, they really have nothing of value. Nobody thats a decent receiver or that has speed. Toilolo can block and hold on to a ball but really he s backup material. Then you look at the RB group and there isnt really an explosive athlete there either. Johnson is a good athlete but I wouldnt call him explosive and he doesnt have great speed. The rest of the runners arent anywhere close. They need team speed and they need it badly. The same applies to the defense, very little speed beyond Davis and Slay. Obviously there are a lot of needs on the team and they dont have to get a WR in the first round but if he s someone going in the teens it could be the makings of a good draft trading down 10 picks or so and accumulating some extra picks to fill some other needs. DE/OLB, CB might also be considerations. Of course Im assuming that Quinn is going to make a couple of mid level moves only in free agency and not much else.


December 19th, 2018, 7:03 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
The Legend wrote:
rao wrote:
I don't see a reason to go after a 1st round WR when they have both Golladay and Jones already. Seems it would be smarter to look for a guy that scores high athletically and falls out of the first because of size. I mean if Brown makes sense at the spot they are at I could understand picking him, but I wouldn't be trying to maneuver around the draft just to target a WR. I think its pretty hard to say what the offense needs given we don't know if JBC will be back or what the new scheme would be if they changed OCs.


Im not sure Jones and Golladay complement each other very well. Neither gets much separation. Neither runs a complete route tree. Neither is particularly quick for the position, although they at least have deep speed. The depth at the position is nonexistent beyond them. At TE, they really have nothing of value. Nobody thats a decent receiver or that has speed. Toilolo can block and hold on to a ball but really he s backup material. Then you look at the RB group and there isnt really an explosive athlete there either. Johnson is a good athlete but I wouldnt call him explosive and he doesnt have great speed. The rest of the runners arent anywhere close. They need team speed and they need it badly. The same applies to the defense, very little speed beyond Davis and Slay. Obviously there are a lot of needs on the team and they dont have to get a WR in the first round but if he s someone going in the teens it could be the makings of a good draft trading down 10 picks or so and accumulating some extra picks to fill some other needs. DE/OLB, CB might also be considerations. Of course Im assuming that Quinn is going to make a couple of mid level moves only in free agency and not much else.


I agree with you about the abilities of both Golladay and Jones. I think we agree completely on whats missing in the offensive passing game. I'm just thinking that BQ is probably going to have a selection high enough to nab a blue chip player and that's what I believe he should do. No trade downs unless they are just to good to pass up. Also if things stay the way they are going into the draft the Lions should also have a shot at a first round talent that drops into the second round which would make a good opportunity to get a TE or WR your looking for. I think defensively the team speed is only really an issue at that DE/OLB spot that is desperately needed. Hand gives the interior DL some quickness and Walker looks pretty good speed wise at Safety. I'd say they have good speed at CB outside of Tabor, they just need better football players at the position not so much better athletes.


December 19th, 2018, 9:06 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
rao wrote:
The Legend wrote:
rao wrote:
I don't see a reason to go after a 1st round WR when they have both Golladay and Jones already. Seems it would be smarter to look for a guy that scores high athletically and falls out of the first because of size. I mean if Brown makes sense at the spot they are at I could understand picking him, but I wouldn't be trying to maneuver around the draft just to target a WR. I think its pretty hard to say what the offense needs given we don't know if JBC will be back or what the new scheme would be if they changed OCs.


Im not sure Jones and Golladay complement each other very well. Neither gets much separation. Neither runs a complete route tree. Neither is particularly quick for the position, although they at least have deep speed. The depth at the position is nonexistent beyond them. At TE, they really have nothing of value. Nobody thats a decent receiver or that has speed. Toilolo can block and hold on to a ball but really he s backup material. Then you look at the RB group and there isnt really an explosive athlete there either. Johnson is a good athlete but I wouldnt call him explosive and he doesnt have great speed. The rest of the runners arent anywhere close. They need team speed and they need it badly. The same applies to the defense, very little speed beyond Davis and Slay. Obviously there are a lot of needs on the team and they dont have to get a WR in the first round but if he s someone going in the teens it could be the makings of a good draft trading down 10 picks or so and accumulating some extra picks to fill some other needs. DE/OLB, CB might also be considerations. Of course Im assuming that Quinn is going to make a couple of mid level moves only in free agency and not much else.


I agree with you about the abilities of both Golladay and Jones. I think we agree completely on whats missing in the offensive passing game. I'm just thinking that BQ is probably going to have a selection high enough to nab a blue chip player and that's what I believe he should do. No trade downs unless they are just to good to pass up. Also if things stay the way they are going into the draft the Lions should also have a shot at a first round talent that drops into the second round which would make a good opportunity to get a TE or WR your looking for. I think defensively the team speed is only really an issue at that DE/OLB spot that is desperately needed. Hand gives the interior DL some quickness and Walker looks pretty good speed wise at Safety. I'd say they have good speed at CB outside of Tabor, they just need better football players at the position not so much better athletes.



Agree on keeping the 1st round pick unless it's a ridiculous offer to move. DE/OLB or possibly a corner with that high pick. It's such a good defensive line draft this year that we'd be crazy not to get some. They can try to solve depth issues at WR/RB/TE in mid-rounds. At this point hard to say what the needs will be as we have a bundle to spend on FA. How many issues can be solved during that period will surely dictate draft day priorities.


December 19th, 2018, 11:17 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
My point about needing to draft a qb fairly high (2nd, 3rd rd) is what little we have behind Stafford and you don't know what you'll be able to get when Stafford is no longer effective or retires. BQ already thinks you should draft a qb every couple of years. Unfortunately, this class is considered pretty weak.

Pass only tight ends are over-rated I'm tired of hearing about how well Ebron is doing in Indy; he did squat here. We need an all-around TE if for no other reason than to help the O-line. Thinking late rounds, same as another guard.

I know that they have been doing dink and dunk to protect Stafford and there is a lack of good receiving talent, but this has been going on all season even with Tate, Jones and Golladay here and healthy. It started in preseason. Stafford was uncharacteristically inaccurate right from the start. Either something has been wrong with Stafford from the start or Cooter has lacked confidence in the O-line and/or the running game. Since he is a pass happy guy...

New OC at the end of the year, a corner or edge rusher with the first pick, then an understudy for Stafford ala Favre and Rodgers.

or not


December 21st, 2018, 11:59 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Jafo wrote:
My point about needing to draft a qb fairly high (2nd, 3rd rd) is what little we have behind Stafford and you don't know what you'll be able to get when Stafford is no longer effective or retires. BQ already thinks you should draft a qb every couple of years. Unfortunately, this class is considered pretty weak.

Pass only tight ends are over-rated I'm tired of hearing about how well Ebron is doing in Indy; he did squat here. We need an all-around TE if for no other reason than to help the O-line. Thinking late rounds, same as another guard.

I know that they have been doing dink and dunk to protect Stafford and there is a lack of good receiving talent, but this has been going on all season even with Tate, Jones and Golladay here and healthy. It started in preseason. Stafford was uncharacteristically inaccurate right from the start. Either something has been wrong with Stafford from the start or Cooter has lacked confidence in the O-line and/or the running game. Since he is a pass happy guy...

New OC at the end of the year, a corner or edge rusher with the first pick, then an understudy for Stafford ala Favre and Rodgers.

or not


they should be scouting and looking at QBs just like they should be looking at every position and looking for any competitive advantage they can get. somehow the patriots take them fairly high and keep rolling but thats where the danger lies with the lions having a guy trying to copy the things that happen in new england that are not integral to the success there. i dont think the lions can afford to take a qb in round 2 or 3 with the roster they have. im agreeable to them taking one in round 5 if there s a good fit and someone who can develop and be ready to play in 2 years.

im actually just as curious this offseason what the lions are going to do about upgrading there coaching staff all around, caldwell had a really strong staff while patricia had a short window to piece together his. clearly, coaching has been an issue this season. i expect to see some turnover in the coaching staff and if there s not its a bad sign of the stubborness of this regime.

as far as cooter and patricia - cooter is a pass happy guy and patricia clearly wants more of a run oriented offense. there preferences and strengths and vision of the game dont align. davidson the OL coach was a former OC so there using davidson s blocking schemes and trying to mix it in with cooter s preexisting system and its been confusing for everyone.


December 22nd, 2018, 9:16 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
I thought the idea of keeping JBC was the offense wasn't going to change it clearly has. It's more a west coast style and not the downfield passing of years past. Getting rid of Ebron and Tate only compounded the problem along with Lang never being healthy. There is no run game without Johnson. It's a mess and needs to be fixed next season. JBC should go he no brings anything worthwhile to the table.

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December 24th, 2018, 3:46 pm
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Leo wrote:
I thought the idea of keeping JBC was the offense wasn't going to change it clearly has. It's more a west coast style and not the downfield passing of years past. Getting rid of Ebron and Tate only compounded the problem along with Lang never being healthy. There is no run game without Johnson. It's a mess and needs to be fixed next season. JBC should go he no brings anything worthwhile to the table.


That is an excellent point and one rarely mentioned and understated. Patricia has been pushing this thing towards a ball control, run first offense and I believe that to be his vision not Cooter's. Cooter will fall on the sword for it but the truth is he should never have come back if this is what Patricia wanted to emphasize on offense.


December 25th, 2018, 1:41 am
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Post Re: JBC should stsy or should he go?
Quinn is the new Millen.

He is rearranging the deck chairs and acting like he is making things better. It is BS. The evidence is in front of you how it is going.
He spent 3 years replacing OL and others who could play without addressing the real shortcomings (RB, DL) on the team. Almost all of the key players after yr 3 are still Mahew picks. Now he needs to do it all over again. How is the right side of that OL doing now? Good for next season?

It's smoke and mirrors. Keep the coach the owner likes, get a five year extension and change coaches because we are ready to 'win now'. We need a culture change, this will be quick with my buddy Matt. Oops, a scheme change too. Well, that will slow us a bit. Next season they will off JBC and change some players. When that doesn't get them to 11-5 because there are too many holes to fill now, they will decide that the QB can't do it how they want and they will off #9 in 2020 and go full rebuild. More smoke. With 2 yrs left on their contracts they will pine for another extension, since the new QB will need some time to develop. 'We will be fully ready to win by year 3'

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December 27th, 2018, 2:02 pm
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