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 McMahon Likely No. 3 in Philly 
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So what would have happened if McMahon would have been given the chance to start, and played well enough to earn a starting job here?

You'd have the situation that they have in San Diego. There is no way of keeping 2 starting caliber quarterbacks on the roster. It's just not possible.

Everyone knows what's going to happen in San Diego. Rivers will be given his chance, either this year or next, Brees is a scapegoat. He has the one year contract. But he's the better quarterback.

McMahon could have been sitting in the situation that Brees was sitting in, but Detroit realized that they have to make a committment to their future. They had to play Harrington. They have to play Harrington this year, even though Garcia COULD be the better QB.

It's because of the contract. Joey's "competition" has been players of one year deals that haven't been given an oppurtunity to really "compete". You never saw McMahon playing with the first team in the pre-season. He didn't start pointless games near the end of the season. He wasn't given a chance.

How about Jon Kitna vs. Carson Palmer? Kitna has an MVP-type season, and gets benched the next season. Why? He had a one-year deal and Palmer had a rich #1 overall pick contract. Same deal.

New England seems like the only team to realize that you need to play the better quarterback, and not the one you are giving the most money to. They gave Brady a chance (actually, a chance came to Brady). There is no other player like Brady. There aren't people who are 6th round picks who are hall of famers after 5 seasons.

Detroit makes their quarterback decisions before gameday. Mooch wasn't allowed to play McMahon. We talked about this during the season on these boards. How Mariucci wanted to play McMahon, yet he never got a chance. McMahon stated the direct argument i'm stating. He was the scapegoat, he knew it, and he was aware that the oppurtunities weren't there for him in Detroit.

Isn't your draft position argument directly contradictory to your Brady example however? How many great picks have we seen flop at the quarterback position?

The fact of the matter is, Detroit drafted Harrington, and is paying him to play. They saw a relatively equal quarterback competition, and the determining factor was the contract. It happens at everywhere in the NFL. There are numerous examples to support this. Teams don't give fair chances in the NFL. It all boils down to who you are paying to play, and who you are paying to backup. Harrington got the contract to be the starter, and McMahon was a scapegoat. Even if he was better, he wasn't given an oppurtunity to play over Joey.


June 14th, 2005, 2:33 pm
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Mike
You criticized the playcalling but apparently measure that only in passing yardage. Guess what, its supposed to put you in the best position to win. And it didnt we went 1-2 and let the Bears get back in a game they shouldnt have had any chance in bc of the great playcalling improvement. Dont call me a typical frustrated fan when you are playing stat boy with passing yardage. You failed to mention in those 3 games that 2 Joey turnovers directly turned into TDs. Safety valve throws on 3rd down are inexcusable when made so soon, that is not a function of the play call but the execution. It does lower turnovers but after 3 years and with his contract he should be well past overusing that.
I didnt knock harrington or defend the defense w reference to those 3 games. No need to get carried away and create another martial arts analogy. But The Lions have made changes to the defense, Cash, Goodman Walker all pushed down the depth chart; Marion entirely gone. I am sure they all could point at each other as an excuse for why they played poorly. Cody drafted to move onto the DL and they tried picking up the Titans MLB. Like Lion Fan is saying, take advantage of opportunities or you get squeezed out. Joey is getting more than a fair share of opportunities, more than anyone else on this team; that is what irks me. Excuses are not enough to keep a guy around. I want to see production or at least glimpses of outstanding talent before I can think that the Lions are doing the right thing spending so much time and money on the same guy. 3 years of trying to eliminate the excuses on offense and the same remain. Joey, Backus, and Raiola are the only constants still here, I am not sure how the lineman could factor into dropped balls. Joey IS the constant. Almost all else has been changed. Face it, part of the dropped balls problem is the erratic QB play whether its timing, location, accuracy, consistency whatever even Mooch pointed this out.


June 15th, 2005, 2:01 am
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Don't throw stones here Legend. It was you who criticized Joey for throwing for 'only 150 yards' in a game. I was simply stating that Joey is capable of throwing downfield, as evidenced in the games where Olson was the playcaller. But there is a trade-off. More yards equals greater chances for interceptions. So right away you rattle off that he threw picks in those games that lead to opposing TDs. It's the price you pay for taking chances downfield. You criticize the outlet throws, but knock him for the interceptions thrown downfield as well.

As I said, you will knock Joey no matter what he does.

That's what the Kobayashi Maru is. A no win situation. It has nothing to do with martial arts and analogies. Just read the article.

And you make statements about the drops by receivers having to do with something that Harrington did. OK, STEVE! That statement was foolish when Mariucci made it, and it has no more logic to it now that you've said it. A dropped ball has NOTHING.....let me repeat that NOTHING to do with the play of the quarterback. A dropped ball is defined as a ball that has been touched by the receiver and is considered to be 'catchable'. A ball that hits the receiver in the back of the helmet and falls to the ground is not considered a drop. Don't equate imcompletions with drops. You're much smarter than that Legend. I played receiver, and the rule is 'you touch it, you catch it', regardless of whether the ball was a bullet or a duck. Whether it hits you in the numbers or is thrown at your knees, if you can reach it and touch it with your hands, it needs to be caught.

Statements like:

Quote:
Face it, part of the dropped balls problem is the erratic QB play whether its timing, location, accuracy, consistency whatever even Mooch pointed this out.


will not cause me, or any one else who is not a 'Joey basher' to have any further respect for your opinions on this subject. Simply because Mariucci said it doesn't mean we should put it into the football gospel. Mariucci has not been a stellar coach since he's been here. It is up to Mariucci to create the game plans and create opportunities for the team to win with the personnel he has on the field. He has failed to live up to his considerable contract.

I criticize the playcalling because the way the WCO works under Mariucci involves short controlled throws. Therefore, the bulk of the playbook contains those type of patterns. However, if a receiver runs a five yard out on a third and six to go situation, is it the QBs fault, the coaches fault, or the receivers fault he didn't go past the sticks? I say it's the fault of the last two, and not that of the quarterback. You seem to think differently. Even in grade school receivers are taught to adjust their patterns to go beyond the first down markers on third down if they are within a couple yards of it. So why don't the Lions coach the same thing? Why don't our receivers make that adjustment? When the Lions have a third down and have more than six yards to go, the opposing defenses will run a mid zone Cover 4. The corners and safeties will stay around the first down marker and stay with the deepest route in their area. The only thing open is the underneath routes. That's what the defense gives, that's what you take. And THAT is what Mariucci preaches to his quarterbacks. Take what the defense gives you.

It has been stated in the media over and over again that Detroit fans have extremely high expectations for two sports positions in this town; goalie and quarterback. Any one playing those positions will come under fire if they don't display HOF caliber play almost immediately. I think that is a pretty true statement.

Joey has improved. Perhaps not at a rate you or I would like, but there has been improvement. Also, you cannot deny the fact that the tools he's had to work with have been pretty shaky and ever changing. I agree with the mass assumptions that Harrington NEEDS to display better consistency and play making ability this year given the plethora of talent surrounding him. I never said Joey was a great quarterback. I am just saying that he's better than what most people are saying.

And as I said before, I can agree to a point that it's Harringtons draft position and contract that has afforded him opportunities to be the starter. However, I don't think that the Lions leave him in there no matter who is playing behind him and how well they may do. McMahon has opportunities to come in and play (limited, I agree) and never did well. If he was playing with the second string offense in pre-season, he was also playing against the second string defense.....and he still had inconsistent performances. Strike while the iron's hot. Joey is the starter and someone has to knock him off that perch by playing well, not just by being here.

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June 15th, 2005, 8:54 am
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m2karateman wrote:
But there is a trade-off. More yards equals greater chances for interceptions. So right away you rattle off that he threw picks in those games that lead to opposing TDs. It's the price you pay for taking chances downfield. You criticize the outlet throws, but knock him for the interceptions thrown downfield as well.


In all fairness...one of those INTs that lead to a TD was ENTIRELY Joey's fault. That one where he tried to avoid the sack, tossed a terrible ball to absolutely nobody and a CHI LB caught the ball and ran it back. Worst play of the season by JH IMO.

However, I must agree with 90% of what you said Mike. I would epand on that, but I'm tired from watching the Stones whoop rectum last night. Gotta spend all my energy being half efficient as usual at work :roll:


June 15th, 2005, 9:16 am
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conversion02 wrote:
In all fairness...one of those INTs that lead to a TD was ENTIRELY Joey's fault. That one where he tried to avoid the sack, tossed a terrible ball to absolutely nobody and a CHI LB caught the ball and ran it back. Worst play of the season by JH IMO.


You're right. That was a God awful mistake. And that is what I meant by Joey being too inconsistent. However, that was not attributable to the play calling of Olson. And a statement was made about Joey throwing for over 300 yards in two of those games and the Lions lost. Again, that wasn't Joeys fault. He threw for 350 yards against Minnesota, but our defense gave up 370 yards to Dante. Joey's fault? He put our team in position to tie, but the snap on the kick sucked. Joey's fault? The Lions intercept a pass and take it to the Minnesota 33 in position to score. Jones fumbles the ball away. Joey's fault? Joey threw three TDs in that game, but did give up two picks. THAT is Joey's fault. So was the fumble given up to Tennessee for a TD in the last game. But still Harrington threw for close to 350 yards and two TDs.

All I'm saying is that Harrington can't be blamed for everything, and it sure sounds like that's what's is being done. The whole discussion about McMahon revolves around whether or not he got a fair opportunity here. Some feel he did, some feel he didn't. My question is, if he was good enough to get a 'fair' opportunity here, why then is he behind Koy Detmer on the depth chart in Philly? Why was there not a larger amount of interest in Mike's services elsewhere? It wasn't like teams were clamouring to sign him.

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June 15th, 2005, 12:48 pm
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I agree with you Mike. I just wanted to note that horrible pick he threw, cuz someone referenced the two picks he threw in those games. That one definately was his fault, as you know. But I do agree, he can put up 400 yards and lose; see Marc Bulger. If our defense can't stop on third down or our receivers can't make a grab that's an easy catch (as report vary from 36 to 54 dropped balls - I'll go with Mooch's count of 50+), that is not Joey's fault.

The truth of the matter is, if Joey threw for 350 yards, 3 TDs and a pick and still lost, it would still be a bitch fest by too many fans. Those are fantasy league numbers, but it doesn't matter without the W. People will find a reason to complain...whether it be the pick or the fact that yards after the catch were high, inflating his stat. That's why I could care less if Joey throws for 300 yards per game, as long as the team wins. Sure, I'd like to see him a stud for the fantasy leagues, but if he ranked in the bottom half of QBs and we got to the SB, I could care less.

BTW, I think McMahon is bad. I just don't like his style of play. He doesn't have a great arm, he's inaccurate.

I would actually like to see what Akili Smith has right now. I think Akili was/is terrible, but he got a very bad rap. The Bengals were AWEFUL from 1999-2001. They had Corey Dillon who was a bonified stud and Peter Warrick wasn't anything beyond decent then. They didn't have much. He's been playing in NFLE and did okay. I would kind of like to see where he's at, if he improved at all. He guy had a lot of potential, but just flopped...


Last edited by conversion02 on June 15th, 2005, 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.



June 15th, 2005, 1:14 pm
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Legend was simply saying that Mike did not get the starting job handed to him like Joey did. I agree. You have to admit that Millen had pressure to start Joey because of the finances involved. Kurt Warner performed better than Eli Manning but was benched why? Cause Eli was the big name draft pick and his development is in large part dependent on his playing time.

You cannot get better by simply watching. You can practise and study film but without experience progress is very hard to make which applies in most facets of life. Why was Kevin Jones not as effective early on last season? One reason may have been the inability to get into a flow due to RB by commitee. In MLB they send guys to the minors so they can get more starts and in the NBA its difficult to hit your shot when you have been warming the bench...that's why Vinnie Johnson was so valuable and dubbed the Microwave cause he could heat up fast which was unusual.

I am NOT a Joey Basher and why wouldn't Legend or I or Brian want him to be great. The fact is he hasn't been...and if Joey hasn't had the personell to succeed then Mike had it far worse when he did have the opportunity. To point and say "Mike is 3rd string he must suck" is not fair. He has to displace a guy that has been there for years and that will not be easy to do. How can he prove his gametime prowess when he gets no gametime?

Anyways...this is no bash on Joey but he was given the job because of obligation due to investment and he has not progressed very much. I hope he breaks NFL records this year but in my opinion Mike had talent that he wasn't able to develop. Joey may have been more polished but he remains unestablished as a solid starter in 3 years of having the reigns handed to him. You say our terrible records are not his fault fine but no one can prove he has been worth the pick either. He has not improved the team over what a mid-late round pick QB could have done.

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June 15th, 2005, 1:28 pm
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theAlphaMale wrote:
Legend was simply saying that Mike did not get the starting job handed to him like Joey did. I agree. You have to admit that Millen had pressure to start Joey because of the finances involved. Kurt Warner performed better than Eli Manning but was benched why? Cause Eli was the big name draft pick and his development is in large part dependent on his playing time.


warner performed better than eli? eli hadn't palyed yet - that makes no sense. the coaching staff of the giants realized that despite the strong start, the team was beginning to struggle and wasn't going to be a playoff factor. if they thought the giants had a chance, warner would have remained the qb. the smart move was to get eli some experience and begin playing their "qb of the future", not a former mvp who hadn't really shown much in a couple of years.

i don't buy the "he got the job because of the high draft pick and contract" - see drew brees in san diego last season. harrington was given the job because he had more upside than mcmahon. whether we ever see it or not is another question.

theAlphaMale wrote:
You cannot get better by simply watching. You can practise and study film but without experience progress is very hard to make which applies in most facets of life. Why was Kevin Jones not as effective early on last season?


can't get better by watching? how bout dante culpepper or chad pennington or tom brady for that matter. all three got better by watching and were prepared when they eventually got into the game.

as for kj, lets not forget he suffered a number of nagging injuries in the preseason and was not healthy at the start of the year. that is why the coaching staff didn't use him exclusively. let's reverse your argument here, why was roy williams effective early in the season and not late. injuries, plain and simple.

theAlphaMale wrote:
I am NOT a Joey Basher and why wouldn't Legend or I or Brian want him to be great. The fact is he hasn't been...and if Joey hasn't had the personell to succeed then Mike had it far worse when he did have the opportunity. To point and say "Mike is 3rd string he must suck" is not fair. He has to displace a guy that has been there for years and that will not be easy to do. How can he prove his gametime prowess when he gets no gametime?


you can't also assume that he would be any good if he indeed did get more playing time. the facts are that mike thought he should be an nfl starter, yet no nfl team looked at him that way. he has been relegated to 3rd string, that backs up the lions brass view of him as a backup and also supports the lack of playing time while with the lions.

he can't beat out koy detmer, a guy who threw for a 45% comp percentage last year and had a qb rating of 40. a guy who has started 3 games in the last 6 years. we are not talking about mike having to beat out joe montana.

mike is a career 43.8% comp percentage passer. we can dog harrington's accuracy all we want, but compared to mike, joey is pin point.

theAlphaMale wrote:
Anyways...this is no bash on Joey but he was given the job because of obligation due to investment and he has not progressed very much. I hope he breaks NFL records this year but in my opinion Mike had talent that he wasn't able to develop. Joey may have been more polished but he remains unestablished as a solid starter in 3 years of having the reigns handed to him. You say our terrible records are not his fault fine but no one can prove he has been worth the pick either. He has not improved the team over what a mid-late round pick QB could have done.


your statement "he was given the job because of obligation due to investment" forgetting the fact that he may have simply been given the job because he was the best option (even if not a great one).

let me ask you this, what qb taken in the last 3 years outside of big ben, has established himself as a solid starter? carr? stats almost mirror joeys. enough of this, this isn't a thread about joey but more of a confirmation that mcmike was never that good. thank you philly... :D


June 15th, 2005, 2:35 pm
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Alpha, you're right. McMahon didn't have the job handed to him like Joey. Neither did he ever, ever come close to earning it. When all things are equal, you go with the guy making more money who possesses more potential. Joey covers both areas. Mike didn't get too many offers when he went into free agency because he never showed the prowess to become an NFL starter. Look at Jake Delhomme. What did he show before going to Carolina? How much did he actually play? Not much, but they saw something about him while he was on the field and put him into the starters role. No team, no team at all saw that in McMahon.

Also, people tend to forget about practice. Coaches watch and observe. They also try to teach. True, the starter gets more reps. That's the nature of the beast. But once again you have to strike while the iron is hot. McMahon may have a problem taking or following direction from coaches. There is talk of him being very cocky and headstrong. That would work heavily against him. If McMahon was lighting things up in practice and Joey was just plain awful, I could see a change taking place. Last year toward the end of the season it was said that Mike was getting more reps at practice, even working with the first team Offense at times. Trouble was, he wasn't playing as well as Joey was in practice. What do you do if you're the coach?

Nobody gets a heavyweight title handed to them, they have to unseat the current champion. As mentioned in another persons post, it's not that Joey is a great QB, just that he is the best option for the Lions.

If people don't like that fact, then blame the Lions, not Joey.

Has he played worth a third overall pick? No.
Is he worth 8 or 10 million dollars against our cap? Probably not.
But regardless of how much or how little he makes, he's still the best option at QB we have to win.

In conclusion, Joey did get the nod at starter because of his contract. But he maintained that because McMahon never really unseated him with his abilities or on-field performances. And he obviously never impressed the coaches enough at practice.

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June 15th, 2005, 3:48 pm
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spiderman wrote:
warner performed better than eli? eli hadn't palyed yet - that makes no sense. the coaching staff of the giants realized that despite the strong start, the team was beginning to struggle and wasn't going to be a playoff factor. if they thought the giants had a chance, warner would have remained the qb. the smart move was to get eli some experience and begin playing their "qb of the future", not a former mvp who hadn't really shown much in a couple of years.

i don't buy the "he got the job because of the high draft pick and contract" - see drew brees in san diego last season. harrington was given the job because he had more upside than mcmahon. whether we ever see it or not is another question.


So when Manning came in, and his first 4 games resulted in QB ratings of 45.1, 16.9, 60.9, and 0, then why didn't they go back to Warner? Eli had come in, played god awful, and they stick with him? Why exactly is that?

Newsflash - The Giants did have a chance. The wildcards for the NFC was 8-8. New York had 5 wins in their first 7 games. If they would have played Warner, they would have made the playoffs. Warner gave the Giants a passing threat, and opened up the defense for Barber to exploit.

Manning no doubt got the job due to his contract. How else could you justify the benching of Warner after leading his team to a 5-4 record with a quarterback rating in the mid 80s? You don't go and bench quarterbacks performing that well.

Why was Jon Kitna benched for Carson Palmer? Why are the Chargers making a committment towards Rivers as their quarterback? Heck, even Anthony Wright was benched for Kyle Boller!

The fact is, the league is based on contracts as well as the franchise player. Those players will be playing no matter what. It doesn't matter who you have at the position, when you spend millions of dollars on a franchise quarterback, he will be your starting quarterback.

spiderman wrote:
he can't beat out koy detmer, a guy who threw for a 45% comp percentage last year and had a qb rating of 40. a guy who has started 3 games in the last 6 years.


Please... you guys need to get off Koy Detmer's nuts.

Detmer has been with the Eagles for 7 years. He has familiarity with the offensive scheme that is being run there, and has experience in stepping in for the starting quarterback when he goes down.

Don't give me a crappy argument that he was terrible due to his statistics. In his only start this season, Detmer was playing with the rest of the Eagles backups against a team that was trying to make the playoffs. I wonder who is going to win there? He is the backup to one of the top 3 quarterbacks in the league. He isn't supposed to play.

spiderman wrote:
let me ask you this, what qb taken in the last 3 years outside of big ben, has established himself as a solid starter? carr? stats almost mirror joeys. enough of this, this isn't a thread about joey but more of a confirmation that mcmike was never that good. thank you philly... :D


So now a quarterback has to succeed within his first three years of his career? I guess that means Brees was a bust, as well as Jake Plummer, even greats such as John Elway were busts.

You can't judge a quarterback in his first 3 years. I'm not judging Harrington. The only thing i've said was that it wasn't a fair competition for the starting quarterback position, when in fact, it wasn't due to Joey's contract. Still, Byron Leftwich, Ben Roethlisberger, David Carr, and Carson Palmer all IMO have shown they are going to be solid starters in this league.


June 16th, 2005, 1:01 am
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Brian wrote:
spiderman wrote:
Why are the Chargers making a committment towards Rivers as their quarterback?

Are they? Brees had one good year, they tagged him for a cool 8M and have said they are looking to sign him long-term depending on next year. I don't see that solid committment to making PR their QB of the future...Granted, they haven't traded him (which would be stupid), but that's about it. He got very little playing time this year. I'll think otherwise when they start to play him more.

Brian wrote:
Please... you guys need to get off Koy Detmer's nuts.


Koy Detmer sucks balls. The guy shouldn't even be a backup. I'd rather have Jeff Blake. Going into camp Mike may be #3, but by the end of th season, he'll be #2.

Brian wrote:
You can't judge a quarterback in his first 3 years. I'm not judging Harrington. The only thing i've said was that it wasn't a fair competition for the starting quarterback position, when in fact, it wasn't due to Joey's contract. Still, Byron Leftwich, Ben Roethlisberger, David Carr, and Carson Palmer all IMO have shown they are going to be solid starters in this league.


Carr? I haven't seen much more from him than JH has shown. They're so similar. Their stats are about the same. The both usually only had 1 good receiver (okay, well we can't say that for JH in 2002 or 2003) and JH finally had a run game half way through last year. Only difference to favor JH is the impressive OL compared to what Carr has had in Houston. Don't give JH a bad shake if you're going to say Carr's shown to be a solid starter but JH isn't. I know you never came out and said it, but from the lack of including him in the list, I had to only think so. Correct me if I'm wrong.


June 16th, 2005, 4:50 am
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I am incorrect or is David Carr on an expansion team in it's infancy still?

And thanks Spidey...you made my with regards to Eli developing so they played him. Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennignton, and Tom Brady all got opportunities...on teams that were good.

And please you guys...you keep dragging Mike fine but I could close my eyes and throw a rock and hit a back up QB that could have taken the Lions to the glorious 14 wins in 3 seasons and shaved a good few million of the cap.

If you do not think that being drafted 3rd and the huge salary had anything to do with who gets the snaps than you are INSANO! BTW McMikes QB rating his first year was about 10 points higher than Joeys his first year and about 25 points higer than Eli Mannings. He had potential and only got starts when the Lions team was at probably it's worst staffing I can ever remember. I am not saying he would have been great but he never had a chance to show it. Joey was handpick by someone on mount high and very expensive and that is a fact. And the last time Mike ever played for the lions at the QB spot after we were getting wrecked Mike came in a completed like 11 of 15 passes and looked damn good but I guess the fact that he didn't practise well is more important :?

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June 16th, 2005, 12:14 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Are they? Brees had one good year, they tagged him for a cool 8M and have said they are looking to sign him long-term depending on next year. I don't see that solid committment to making PR their QB of the future...Granted, they haven't traded him (which would be stupid), but that's about it. He got very little playing time this year. I'll think otherwise when they start to play him more.


When the supposed "Rivers for #1 pick" rumor came out, I spoke to a source very close to the situation. All I can say is my source spoke with a player on the team about their quarterback situation. A.J. Smith is in love with Rivers. He's incredibly high on him. They are absolutely no way going to give Brees a contract extention. They made a committment to Rivers, and he is their man of the future. This player on the team knows this. They never said they were looking to sign him long term. They aren't able to financially.

conversion02 wrote:
Carr? I haven't seen much more from him than JH has shown. They're so similar. Their stats are about the same. The both usually only had 1 good receiver (okay, well we can't say that for JH in 2002 or 2003) and JH finally had a run game half way through last year. Only difference to favor JH is the impressive OL compared to what Carr has had in Houston. Don't give JH a bad shake if you're going to say Carr's shown to be a solid starter but JH isn't. I know you never came out and said it, but from the lack of including him in the list, I had to only think so. Correct me if I'm wrong.


My exclusion of Joey was based on the fact that spiderman stated that there are no quarterbacks that have been drafted the past 4 years. I listed 4 who are the definite starters for their team. Joey isn't one. I am not 100% sure that Joey is going to be successful. I don't judge players on statistics. Everyone who backs Joey up goes directly to the statistics and numbers, and doesn't watch him play. I can't judge Joey without seeing him with his targets, but he doesn't have the leadership attributes or arm strength of any of the quarterbacks listed. He also hasn't won as many games as the quarterbacks listed last season. Show me you can win, show me you can come back from behind, show me the team believes in you, show me that you can throw the deep ball, then i'll make a judgement.


June 16th, 2005, 1:52 pm
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theAlphaMale wrote:
I am incorrect or is David Carr on an expansion team in it's infancy still??


you are correct. problem is the lions were in the same boat with little advantage, if any, over an expansion team the year the texans entered the league.

theAlphaMale wrote:
And thanks Spidey...you made my with regards to Eli developing so they played him. Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennignton, and Tom Brady all got opportunities...on teams that were good.


your welcome. not sure what you are trying to say here.

theAlphaMale wrote:
And please you guys...you keep dragging Mike fine but I could close my eyes and throw a rock and hit a back up QB that could have taken the Lions to the glorious 14 wins in 3 seasons and shaved a good few million of the cap.


and where would the lions be now? at least with harrington they were trying to build something. bringing in a backup qb with no future would have done nothing to build this franchise for the future. at least they have taken a chance with a young qb, there is at least a chance for a payoff.

theAlphaMale wrote:
If you do not think that being drafted 3rd and the huge salary had anything to do with who gets the snaps than you are INSANO! BTW McMikes QB rating his first year was about 10 points higher than Joeys his first year and about 25 points higer than Eli Mannings. He had potential and only got starts when the Lions team was at probably it's worst staffing I can ever remember. I am not saying he would have been great but he never had a chance to show it. Joey was handpick by someone on mount high and very expensive and that is a fact. And the last time Mike ever played for the lions at the QB spot after we were getting wrecked Mike came in a completed like 11 of 15 passes and looked damn good but I guess the fact that he didn't practise well is more important :?


ever heard of a second overall nba pick named darko? he wasn't handed anything. i'm not saying that a contract had zero to do with it, but you can't say mcmiss showed anything to the coaching staff or that the lions had a better option during his tenure. you also rip the lions for not giving mcmiss an opportunity and turn around and talk about him throwing for 15 passes. you can't judge him on 15 passes at the end of a blowout game.

did brady have a huge contract, no! still the man with a little contract outplayed and replaced a guy with a huge contract. same thing with rudi over dillon. actually, there are tons of examples where players with small contracts have beat out "big contract" players.

brian wrote:
My exclusion of Joey was based on the fact that spiderman stated that there are no quarterbacks that have been drafted the past 4 years. I listed 4 who are the definite starters for their team. Joey isn't one. I am not 100% sure that Joey is going to be successful. I don't judge players on statistics. Everyone who backs Joey up goes directly to the statistics and numbers, and doesn't watch him play. I can't judge Joey without seeing him with his targets, but he doesn't have the leadership attributes or arm strength of any of the quarterbacks listed. He also hasn't won as many games as the quarterbacks listed last season. Show me you can win, show me you can come back from behind, show me the team believes in you, show me that you can throw the deep ball, then i'll make a judgement.


none of the four players you mentioned has ever played a full 16-game season. when joey had roy healthy at the beginning of the season, he looked pretty decent. you have to have a weapon at wr, preferably more than one. leftwich has had jimmy smith, palmer had chad, tj, etc., big ben had ward, plax, etc., and carr had a. johnson. give each of them hakim (if healthy), streets and kircus - lets see how they light it up then????

i've seen carr play more than any of the other four, imo he looks pretty similar to joey.

as for arm strength, montana was the goat at qb and didn't have much of an arm.

btw - i didn't say the giants couldn't make the playoffs, hell even the bears still had a shot in december, i said they weren't going to be a factor in the playoffs. why keep your qb of future on the bench when you have no real shot, it was a good decision by the giants. the cowboys, on the other hand, tried to make a push for the playoffs with 40-something vinny and never saw what henson could do. what a waste, now they turn to bledsoe.

back to the point, this wasn't a joey vs. the rest of the nfl qbs thread, it was a mike couldn't even make 2nd string qb thread. forget being a joey hater/lover - i simply thought that mcmiss never showed true promise to be an nfl qb. he had great legs, that was it. his accuracy was terrible, as was his attitude.

you cannot justify anything by saying "he never got an opportunity". the lions had him on the squad for a year, he even played a bit as a rookie, but they didn't think enough of him not to invest a #3 pick overall on another qb.

i never got a chance to play qb for the lions either, thats not to say that i could have led them to a super bowl, or a better record than joey for that matter. millen, give me a call please. i'm ready.

this is a bash mcmiss thread. let us enjoy ourselves as mike will only get to suit up for games due to the "emergency" qb rule. and detmer isn't that great, otherwise the eagles wouldn't look to add another qb to compete with him but rather draft (or pick up an undrafted fa) qb to sit on the bench.

both mcmahon and mcdougle drove me mcnutz. there egos told them they were better than they were. both went out and saw little action on the fa market. instead of big long-term deals, both got signed to one year (despite the fact that both are still young) and at bargain prices. that tells you what the rest of the league thought of them. mcdougle will at least have a chance to start and prove himself while mcmahon will fade into detmer's 195-pound shadow.


June 16th, 2005, 3:45 pm
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I disagree so you are BANNED! :lol:

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June 17th, 2005, 11:43 am
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