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 All starts under center (Harrington benched by week 3) 
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TADOne wrote:
I don't believe the numbers tell a complete story. Garcia was hurt for much of the year, and when he did play Cleveland was still trying to find their identity on offense. As of now, they still don't know who their RB will be to start the season.

Just for the fact that Garcia knows the system so well, he is a much more suitable replacement than McCown would be if Warner were to go down with an injury.


If you are going to discredit Garcia for his team, then why not McCown for his? After all, this thread was about how the Cardinals aren't good, they were only 2 games better than the Browns last season. They had Emmitt Smith at running back and Boldin was hurt for the first 6 games.

Again, McCown started for this team last season. He has been with the team for 3 years. He has played in game action with the team. How come Garcia gets credit for "knowing the system so well", when he was just recently acquired and hasn't played with the players he is right now?


June 24th, 2005, 3:45 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Brian, you've got to compare the talent on the teams. Arizona vs CLEVELAND! Tell me who's going to do better.

Garcia had practically nothing to work with while McCown had a superstar in Boldin and a potential superstar in Fitz. That and the fact that Garcia was getting mugged because the only quality player on the Cleveland OL was Verba.

I don't think McCown will ever cut it as a starting QB, but I'm willing to give him at least one more full year (if he gets the chance) to prove right or wrong.


From how you talk about the Cardinals, you make them to be a talentless team. :roll:

Boldin was injured for the first 6 games of the season. Then he came back and took some time to get back into stride. Fitzgerald is now a "potential superstar"? Wow... i'm shaking... He was a ROOKIE last season.

Arizona's offensive line was equally as bad. The only player on the line of note was Leonard Davis. They overhauled the line this season.


June 24th, 2005, 3:48 pm
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Brian wrote:
You're telling me that a guy that a team just acquired, who hasn't played with any of the players he is playing with before, doesn't need time to "learn the system", but the man who was the STARTING QUARTERBACK FOR THE TEAM last season, "needs time to learn the system and develop the timing"?

That argument is completely illogical. If anything, it's Garcia who needs to learn the system, learn the timing.
Again, McCown started for this team last season. He has been with the team for 3 years. He has played in game action with the team. How come Garcia gets credit for "knowing the system so well", when he was just recently acquired and hasn't played with the players he is right now?
So you're saying that Garcia doesn't in fact know Mooches system??? :confused:
If I remember correctly wasn't Garcia with Mooch before? Didn't he go to the Pro Bowl under Mooch? And wasn't Tollner with the 49ers when Garcia was there?

And I guess taht Warner automatically is going to know Green's system inside and out considering he is the savior of the Cards, right?

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June 24th, 2005, 3:57 pm
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TheRealWags wrote:
So you're saying that Garcia doesn't in fact know Mooches system??? :confused:
If I remember correctly wasn't Garcia with Mooch before? Didn't he go to the Pro Bowl under Mooch?


Sure he may know the system. But does he remember it? How do we know that? We don't. That was 2 years ago.

Garcia hasn't played with the players he is going to be playing with. He isn't going into the season as the starting quarterback. The only way he plays is if the Lions dig themselves into a hole in the W-L column.

He doesn't have the timing down with the receivers. He hasn't started games and thrown passes in games to these receivers, like McCown has. He hasn't been with them for a few years like McCown has.


June 24th, 2005, 4:01 pm
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Brian wrote:
Sure he may know the system. But does he remember it? How do we know that? We don't. That was 2 years ago.
So he's senile now??? Garcia isn't THAT old.

Brian wrote:
Garcia hasn't played with the players he is going to be playing with. He isn't going into the season as the starting quarterback. The only way he plays is if the Lions dig themselves into a hole in the W-L column.

He doesn't have the timing down with the receivers. He hasn't started games and thrown passes in games to these receivers, like McCown has. He hasn't been with them for a few years like McCown has.
Isn't that was training camp is for??? Garcia's a professional, I'm sure he won't have any problems with his timing and the receivers.

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June 24th, 2005, 4:07 pm
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Post Lets compare Garcia and Warner
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# 5 Jeff Garcia
Position: QB
Height: 6-1
Weight: 200
Born: 02/24/1970
College: San Jose State
NFL Experience: 7

Career Stats | Game Logs: 01 02 03 04 | Situational Stats | Team Roster

PASSING

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1999 San Francisco 49ers 13 10 375 225 60.0 2544 6.78 62 11 11 15/104 28 7 77.9
2000 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 561 355 63.3 4278 7.63 69 31 10 24/155 59 9 97.6
2001 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 504 316 62.7 3538 7.02 61 32 12 26/114 40 10 94.8
2002 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 528 328 62.1 3344 6.33 76 21 10 17/93 31 7 85.6
2003 San Francisco 49ers 13 13 392 225 57.4 2704 6.90 75 18 13 21/104 35 6 80.1
2004 Cleveland Browns 11 10 252 144 57.1 1731 6.87 99 10 9 24/99 18 8 76.7
TOTAL 85 81 2612 1593 61.0 18139 6.94 99 123 65 127/669 211 47 87.2


# 13 Kurt Warner
Position: QB
Height: 6-2
Weight: 200
Born: 06/22/1971
College: Northern Iowa
NFL Experience: 8

Career Stats | Game Logs: 01 02 03 04 | Situational Stats | Team Roster

PASSING

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1998 St. Louis Rams 1 0 11 4 36.4 39 3.55 21 0 0 0/0 1 0 47.2
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 16 499 325 65.1 4353 8.72 75 41 13 29/201 60 16 109.2
2000 St. Louis Rams 11 11 347 235 67.7 3429 9.88 85 21 18 20/115 49 14 98.3
2001 St. Louis Rams 16 16 546 375 68.7 4830 8.85 65 36 22 38/233 81 11 101.4
2002 St. Louis Rams 7 6 220 144 65.5 1431 6.50 43 3 11 21/130 15 1 67.4
2003 St. Louis Rams 2 1 65 38 58.5 365 5.62 37 1 1 6/38 3 0 72.9
2004 New York Giants 10 9 277 174 62.8 2054 7.42 62 6 4 39/196 24 6 86.5
TOTAL 63 59 1965 1295 65.9 16501 8.40 85 108 69 153/913 233 48 95.7


Seems to me that these two are pretty close in their careers even with Warner having an extra year of experience in the NFL.

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June 24th, 2005, 4:10 pm
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Brian wrote:
Garcia hasn't played with the players he is going to be playing with. He isn't going into the season as the starting quarterback. The only way he plays is if the Lions dig themselves into a hole in the W-L column.

He doesn't have the timing down with the receivers. He hasn't started games and thrown passes in games to these receivers, like McCown has. He hasn't been with them for a few years like McCown has.


And yet...Warner has been playing with those receivers, started games, thrown passes to these receivers, and has timing down? I know the comparison was with Garcia and McCown, who are backups, but what about Warner as the starter? He's coming in fresh, same as Garcia. That seems hypocrtical. Personally, I'd rather have a backup who hasn't played with these guys before vs a starter who hasn't played with these guys before. Advantage - Detroit IMO.

And in case there's a, "nobody ever brought Joey up." I'm aware.


June 24th, 2005, 4:13 pm
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TheRealWags wrote:
Brian wrote:
Sure he may know the system. But does he remember it? How do we know that? We don't. That was 2 years ago.
So he's senile now??? Garcia isn't THAT old.


Are you a student? Do you remember the things you did 2 years ago in school? Do you remember everything that happened in a history class? People forget things.

Brian wrote:
Garcia hasn't played with the players he is going to be playing with. He isn't going into the season as the starting quarterback. The only way he plays is if the Lions dig themselves into a hole in the W-L column.

He doesn't have the timing down with the receivers. He hasn't started games and thrown passes in games to these receivers, like McCown has. He hasn't been with them for a few years like McCown has.
Isn't that was training camp is for??? Garcia's a professional, I'm sure he won't have any problems with his timing and the receivers.[/quote]

Oh yes! Give them a few weeks of training camp and he will be just as fine as someone who has been with these guys for two years. :roll:


June 24th, 2005, 4:20 pm
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Brian's arguing Lions vs. Cardinals again...

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June 24th, 2005, 4:28 pm
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Brian wrote:
Are you a student? Do you remember the things you did 2 years ago in school? Do you remember everything that happened in a history class? People forget things.


Bad argument Brian. Who the hell cares about history class 2 years ago? Personally, I'm a student in Mechanical Engineering. Do I remember what I learned in Physics 2 years ago, you're damn right I do. If you're interested in it and use it on a continual basis, you'll retain it. Does Garcia play football on a continual basis, I believe so. Well, I'm not so sure, Carmella is smoking and she could definately keep any guy occupied.

Brian wrote:
Oh yes! Give them a few weeks of training camp and he will be just as fine as someone who has been with these guys for two years. :roll:


conversion02 wrote:
I know the comparison was with Garcia and McCown, who are backups, but what about Warner as the starter? He's coming in fresh, same as Garcia. That seems hypocrtical. Personally, I'd rather have a backup who hasn't played with these guys before vs a starter who hasn't played with these guys before


I was comparing Garcia to Warner, again...read the post ^^^^^


June 24th, 2005, 4:35 pm
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Quote:
Again, McCown started for this team last season. He has been with the team for 3 years. He has played in game action with the team. How come Garcia gets credit for "knowing the system so well", when he was just recently acquired and hasn't played with the players he is right now?


I didn't realize that McCown had been w/ the Cardinal's for 3 years. I thought it was 2. Bottom line, I think we can agree that neither team wants to go to their backups this year. If Detroit did, it would mean that Harrington is not winning football games. If Arizona went to McCown, it would mean that Warner got hurt or was not playing with confidence.

Basically, my argument is that Garcia is a former pro bowl player under this very coach. It's true he has never thrown to these guys b/4, but I don't see any issues with him adjusting. I think McCown has a live arm and some good skills, but has made bad decisions. After all, he did get benched for Navarre of all people last year.

I think that both backups are a wash for both teams.

As for either team making the playoffs, I still think both teams are a year away. But I could see either team battling for a wildcard spot this year if the cards(no pun intended) fall right.

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June 24th, 2005, 4:54 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Brian wrote:
Are you a student? Do you remember the things you did 2 years ago in school? Do you remember everything that happened in a history class? People forget things.


Bad argument Brian. Who the hell cares about history class 2 years ago? Personally, I'm a student in Mechanical Engineering. Do I remember what I learned in Physics 2 years ago, you're damn right I do. If you're interested in it and use it on a continual basis, you'll retain it. Does Garcia play football on a continual basis, I believe so. Well, I'm not so sure, Carmella is smoking and she could definately keep any guy occupied.


Do you remember every detail about that Physics class? Every formula you learned, everything? No you don't, and if you say you did, it'd be a lie. Garcia hasn't used Mooch's system in 2 years. Once he left SF, they got him on a new system there, as well as at CLE. It's a different situation than your engineering.

conversion02 wrote:
Brian wrote:
Oh yes! Give them a few weeks of training camp and he will be just as fine as someone who has been with these guys for two years. :roll:


conversion02 wrote:
I know the comparison was with Garcia and McCown, who are backups, but what about Warner as the starter? He's coming in fresh, same as Garcia. That seems hypocrtical. Personally, I'd rather have a backup who hasn't played with these guys before vs a starter who hasn't played with these guys before


I was comparing Garcia to Warner, again...read the post ^^^^^


And I wasn't arguing Garcia v. Warner... I proved a point on Garcia v. McCown, and you change it to Garcia v. Warner! :roll:


June 25th, 2005, 10:42 am
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Brian wrote:
Do you remember every detail about that Physics class? Every formula you learned, everything? No you don't, and if you say you did, it'd be a lie. Garcia hasn't used Mooch's system in 2 years. Once he left SF, they got him on a new system there, as well as at CLE. It's a different situation than your engineering.


I remember a hell of a lot more than you'd think. I don't use it daily, but I keep myself refreshed on it. The man plays football for a living and was in that system for four years; you don't easily forget something you used everyday for four years.

Brian wrote:
And I wasn't arguing Garcia v. Warner... I proved a point on Garcia v. McCown, and you change it to Garcia v. Warner! :roll:


I know you were proving a point and comparing backups. I also noted that, in case you failed to read the entire post, which you seemed to have done quite a bit lately. Here it is again.

conversion02 wrote:
I know the comparison was with Garcia and McCown, who are backups, but what about Warner as the starter? He's coming in fresh, same as Garcia. That seems hypocrtical. Personally, I'd rather have a backup who hasn't played with these guys before vs a starter who hasn't played with these guys before


I acknowledged your comparison, but I was trying to ask you what about your starter who hadn't been in that system with those receivers etc. You can't be hypocritcal and say Jeff Garcia will fail and Warner will succeed beyond all expectations because they're in the same boat. Wait, no they're not. Warner's starting and Garcia's backing up. Warner's isn't the franchise QB for any club.


June 25th, 2005, 12:50 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
You can't be hypocritcal and say Jeff Garcia will fail and Warner will succeed beyond all expectations because they're in the same boat. Wait, no they're not. Warner's starting and Garcia's backing up. Warner's isn't the franchise QB for any club.


You're right, I can't say that.

And I didn't.


June 25th, 2005, 11:25 pm
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Brian, are you a student? Maybe a 6th grader? I have read many of your feature articles and they seem to be well thought out and well written, But.....when you get on this forum it seems as if you took your brain out and left it in your Teletubbies backpack. All you can do is talk bull about the Galaxy champion Cardinals, who to this point have proven nothing.

How did you become a senior writer for Lionbacker.com when you seem to hate the Lions with an overwhelming passion. Please tell me you don't get paid for the crap that comes out of your mouth.

Many people come to this forum for information on their favorite team. While some maynot ask the most intelligent questions, they are still questions. They don't need to be berrated or called stupid or jackass by some pompus know it all rectum@#$%.

If you can't or don't wan't to be decent to the people we invite to our forum, why don't you check out Cardinal Loving rectum!@#s.com, maybe someone there would like your help in making love to Kurt Warner.


June 26th, 2005, 12:27 am
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