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 2010 NFL Combine 
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I think it is relatively accepted that Suh is the more ready player today. I don't think we would have much argument on that statement. But a lot feel that McCoy has room to get better and will, which gives him a higher ceiling.

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March 2nd, 2010, 12:16 pm
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M2K, I believe that Rob_Shadows was lashing out at the pundits like Mayock and McShay who have McCoy ranked higher, rather than anybody on here. Personally, I've liked Suh more than McCoy all season long and my opinion isn't changing based upon the combine or anything else. I base that more upon what I've seen in actual games rather than what they do in their t shirts and shorts.

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March 2nd, 2010, 12:19 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
Rob_Shadows wrote:
Sure didn't look like it today in the drills when Suh looked like a freak while McCoy couldn't even compare to him. Suh showed better quickness, better movement, better technique in the punch, rip and swim drills...Suh just flat out made McCoy his bitch today.

To be fair though, even I was surprised at how stiff McCoy looked in a lot of those drills...and I will admit that even I was also surprised that Suh seems to not only be the more athletic between the two after all but by a pretty good margin.

After the combine I honestly don't see how anyone could still debate Suh being head and shoulders above McCoy (though I'm sure some will refuse to admit it).


Thank God you are not the Lions GM, because you'd be the Midwest version of Al Davis.

The Combines are one day, one workout. Yes, Suh did look good. Nobody on here has said that McCoy was better than Suh, or would show better at the Combines. But to simply sit there and say, because of these workouts, that Suh is head and shoulders better than McCoy is a foolish thing indeed.

Why? Are they doing all this with pads on? No. Are they performing against humans? No. Are they playing in a game, where their adrenaline could come into play even more? No.

How many times, in how many years, do players have to do well at the Combines, get drafted earlier than they should, and then have everyone turn around and say, 'well his workouts were good, but that doesn't make him a good football player'?

Players do make money at the Combines and at their Pro Days by having good workouts. But good coaches and scouts rely on game tape more than anything else. Suh played in a different style defense than McCoy, which could lend to the perception that McCoy is quicker. Suh was asked to hold the point and read the play, then attack. McCoy was asked to penetrate and disrupt from the get go.

You also have to remember that Suh has had two knee surgeries. One surgery would be somewhat easy to dismiss. But two has to be cause for concern. McCoy hasn't had any serious injuries of that nature that I know of. Durability must be taken into account.

So while Suh ruled the day yesterday, it's no reason to start crowning him the end-all-be-all of the DTs in this draft class. I saw other DTs outlift him. I saw other DTs outrun him. I saw other DTs outmaneveur him. Should we be considering one of them instead?


If I was the Al Davis of the Midwest I'd be saying we should draft Bruce Campbell or Lamar Houston at 2 instead of Suh, lol.

On a serious note there is one thing about your post I want to address...you talk about how they weren't in pads against real people. Your right, they weren't...and if they were Suh would have stood out even more ahead of McCoy. Look at what he did do in pads against real people as opposed to McCoy, we're talking about one of the most dominant DT careers in college football history....

2008:

Suh - 13 games, 76 tackles with 19 for loss, 7 1/2 sacks, 3 deflections, 2 picks, 7 hurries, 2 blocks.

McCoy - 14 games, 30 tackles with 11 for loss, 6 1/2 sacks, 2 deflections, 1 pick, 2 hurries, 0 blocks.

Advantage...Suh although when you don't count tackles and Suh's ability to block it's close.

2009:

Suh - 14 games, 85 tackles with 24 for loss, 12 sacks, 10 deflections, 1 pick, 28 hurries, 3 blocks.

McCoy - 34 tackles with 15 1/2 for loss, 6 sacks, 2 deflections, 0 picks, 10 hurries, 0 blocks.

Advantage - This one isn't even close as Suh put up one of the most dominant seasons in college football history.

Now here's one thing I want to point out that no one ever seems to for some reasons. Looking at their performances...Suh showed great growth and improvement in the last 2 years...McCoy...did not. Why? If McCoy has this high ceiling everyone keeps talking about...why didn't he show the progression between 08 and 09? Suh's progression I already know the reason behind...he's a relentless worker who is constantly striving to improve...he wants to be the best and he's said that several times. What I don't know is why didn't McCoy show improvement?

That's something I really put a lot into...I want to see a player improve year after year in college, Suh has shown that improvement between 08 and 09...the most recent years...McCoy hasn't...and it doesn't sit well with me.

And one last thing, Sly was partially right...I was attacking Mayock and McShay and the other pundits but I still don't understand how anyone at all can have McCoy ahead of Suh. I meant no offense to any member here though.


March 2nd, 2010, 12:57 pm
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Hey, don't get me wrong...I still want Suh on our roster. But despite a good showing during his workouts, I truly don't feel he's that much more gifted than McCoy. At this stage, I would venture to say it largely depends on what you are looking to get from your defensive tackle. Remember that what you are asked to do as part of the overall defensive scheme can affect your numbers, as can the abilities of the other people on the defense.

What gets me is I am seeing people, year after year, watch the Combines or see the results, and immediately they think that because a player performed things well it will make them a great football player.

Some of the best football players in the NFL sucked big time during the Combines and their Pro Day workouts. They didn't impress with their weight lifting, or 40 times, or even position drills. But when they buckle up the pads and take the field, they simply know how to play football and do what it takes to win.

I see Rob Shadows drooling over Suh because of his workouts in comparison to one player...Gerald McCoy. I see Billy Sims on another thread talking about how great Bruce Campbell did and how there's NO WAY he's less than a first rounder, despite his numerous shortcomings.

People get too wrapped up in the Combines. I agree that this past season Suh was the more dominant player, hence his being a finalist for the Heisman. In truth, he should have won it, were it a fair competition. He was the single most dominating player in the nation.

All I'm saying is, don't go overboard on Combine results. If teams selected on those workouts alone, Lydon Murtha would have been the first OT off the board last season. No offense to anyone, I am just saying don't get overly excited by a couple workouts.


Last edited by m2karateman on March 2nd, 2010, 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



March 2nd, 2010, 1:02 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
Hey, don't get me wrong...I still want Suh on our roster. But despite a good showing during his workouts, I truly don't feel he's that much more gifted than McCoy. At this stage, I would venture to say it largely depends on what you are looking to get from your defensive tackle.

What gets me is I am seeing people, year after year, watch the Combines or see the results, and immediately they think that because a player performed things well it will make them a great football player.

Some of the best football players in the NFL sucked big time during the Combines and their Pro Day workouts. They didn't impress with their weight lifting, or 40 times, or even position drills. But when they buckle up the pads and take the field, they simply know how to play football and do what it takes to win.

I see Rob Shadows drooling over Suh because of his workouts in comparison to one player...Gerald McCoy. I see Billy Sims on another thread talking about how great Bruce Campbell did and how there's NO WAY he's less than a first rounder, despite his numerous shortcomings.

People get too wrapped up in the Combines. I agree that this past season Suh was the more dominant player, hence his being a finalist for the Heisman. In truth, he should have won it, were it a fair competition. He was the single most dominating player in the nation.

All I'm saying is, don't go overboard on Combine results. If teams selected on those workouts alone, Lydon Murtha would have been the first OT off the board last season.


I can completely understand that which is why I really wanted to point out in that last post that I'm basing it off of performance in games and not just the combine, anyone who remembers my comments in the chat room during games this past season knows I've been riding the Suh choo train all year long.

There was one more thing I wanted to add to that as well (this isn't directed at you M2K). I keep hearing people (as I acknowledged in the previous post) talk about McCoy having a very high "Ceiling" and as I pointed out if he has why didn't he progress? But what I want to say now is how the heck do we know Suh has reached his "Ceiling"? He certainly improved upon his numbers between '08 and '09...and not just by a little here we're talking 7 1/2 sacks and 7 hurries to a rediculous 12 sacks and perhaps an even more rediculous 28 hurries...showing some serious improvement in his pass rushing, so I have a question.

Who's to say he can't improve even more? He certainly has that tireless and relentless work ethic you want...you know he's going to work his rectum off to become the best player he can. How do we know the best player he "can" be isn't a hell of a lot better than the player he already is? Just because it's one hell of a scary thought doesn't mean we should assume he doesn't have just as much room to grow as McCoy.


March 2nd, 2010, 1:11 pm
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I think if McCourty is there at #34 you can pretty much lock it up.

Taylor Mays 4.24 :shock:

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March 2nd, 2010, 1:14 pm
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Mays killed the 40... who said he was slow? Yes, I know he may not play that fast...

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March 2nd, 2010, 1:39 pm
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Free stats from the combine. I think they are kinda up to date:

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/2010 ... cfm?pos=CB

Just pick a position

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March 2nd, 2010, 1:44 pm
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Haden ran a 4.57... ew...

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March 2nd, 2010, 1:45 pm
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steensn wrote:
Haden ran a 4.57... ew...


I've never been a fan of his, I'm surpirsed Javier Arenas only ran a 4.52 as well - I thought he was faster than that. On the other side, Brandon Ghee ran a solid 4.37 and has good size at 6'0" as a potential 3rd rounder if the Lions go RB or another position in round 2.

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March 2nd, 2010, 1:59 pm
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Stallion wrote:
Taylor Mays 4.24 :shock:


I've heard Mays ran a 4.43. still fast but not shockingly fast as a 4.24

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March 2nd, 2010, 2:33 pm
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Pablo wrote:
Stallion wrote:
Taylor Mays 4.24 :shock:


I've heard Mays ran a 4.43. still fast but not shockingly fast as a 4.24


It was "unofficial" 4.24 and "official" 4.43. I would argue that it is probably really more like a 4.3 because he is slower the Ford(4.27?) but faster than Trindon Holiday(4.34) when there runs are played at the same time. Either way I do not want him on my team.

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March 2nd, 2010, 3:49 pm
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I'll take him in the 2nd if there... no questions asked.

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March 2nd, 2010, 4:04 pm
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I think the Combine says a lot about how somebody deals with expectations and high stakes situations. That Suh 'showed up' and McCoy apparently didn't says something, absolutely.

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March 2nd, 2010, 4:35 pm
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Pablo wrote:
steensn wrote:
Haden ran a 4.57... ew...


I've never been a fan of his, I'm surpirsed Javier Arenas only ran a 4.52 as well - I thought he was faster than that. On the other side, Brandon Ghee ran a solid 4.37 and has good size at 6'0" as a potential 3rd rounder if the Lions go RB or another position in round 2.


Arenas pulled up toward the end of his forty with a hamstring issue, which reduced his time somewhat. He might have gotten around a 4.4 if not for the injury.

I watched some of the DB workouts, and I am convinced that Eric Berry can easily play corner in the NFL. He was very smooth in the drills, was able to flip his hips well without discernible loss of speed, and has really excellent hands.

It's just one workout, but if I were a team in the top ten interested in getting a cornerback and don't want Haden, I'd look at Berry for that.


March 2nd, 2010, 7:39 pm
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