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 2010 NFL Combine 
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m2karateman wrote:
I see Rob Shadows drooling over Suh because of his workouts in comparison to one player...Gerald McCoy. I see Billy Sims on another thread talking about how great Bruce Campbell did and how there's NO WAY he's less than a first rounder, despite his numerous shortcomings.


Sorry everyone. Apparently it is too politically incorrect to point out that someone did very well at the combines and that someone will draft him in the 1st round. I didn't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities. I will try to avoid pointing out simple facts in the future. Please forgive me.


March 3rd, 2010, 2:39 am
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Rob_Shadows wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Hey, don't get me wrong...I still want Suh on our roster. But despite a good showing during his workouts, I truly don't feel he's that much more gifted than McCoy. At this stage, I would venture to say it largely depends on what you are looking to get from your defensive tackle.

What gets me is I am seeing people, year after year, watch the Combines or see the results, and immediately they think that because a player performed things well it will make them a great football player.

Some of the best football players in the NFL sucked big time during the Combines and their Pro Day workouts. They didn't impress with their weight lifting, or 40 times, or even position drills. But when they buckle up the pads and take the field, they simply know how to play football and do what it takes to win.

I see Rob Shadows drooling over Suh because of his workouts in comparison to one player...Gerald McCoy. I see Billy Sims on another thread talking about how great Bruce Campbell did and how there's NO WAY he's less than a first rounder, despite his numerous shortcomings.

People get too wrapped up in the Combines. I agree that this past season Suh was the more dominant player, hence his being a finalist for the Heisman. In truth, he should have won it, were it a fair competition. He was the single most dominating player in the nation.

All I'm saying is, don't go overboard on Combine results. If teams selected on those workouts alone, Lydon Murtha would have been the first OT off the board last season.


I can completely understand that which is why I really wanted to point out in that last post that I'm basing it off of performance in games and not just the combine, anyone who remembers my comments in the chat room during games this past season knows I've been riding the Suh choo train all year long.

There was one more thing I wanted to add to that as well (this isn't directed at you M2K). I keep hearing people (as I acknowledged in the previous post) talk about McCoy having a very high "Ceiling" and as I pointed out if he has why didn't he progress? But what I want to say now is how the heck do we know Suh has reached his "Ceiling"? He certainly improved upon his numbers between '08 and '09...and not just by a little here we're talking 7 1/2 sacks and 7 hurries to a rediculous 12 sacks and perhaps an even more rediculous 28 hurries...showing some serious improvement in his pass rushing, so I have a question.

Who's to say he can't improve even more? He certainly has that tireless and relentless work ethic you want...you know he's going to work his rectum off to become the best player he can. How do we know the best player he "can" be isn't a hell of a lot better than the player he already is? Just because it's one hell of a scary thought doesn't mean we should assume he doesn't have just as much room to grow as McCoy.


Rob,

Reading your post about Suh ticked me off at first because I felt like you were attacking all of us that Like McCoy better than Suh. But, you did back your argument with solid facts. I didn't realize just how wide a difference there was between their numbers. I also didn't realize how wide a gap there was between them in degree of improvement. That last one blew me away and it won me over to the Suh side.


March 3rd, 2010, 2:47 am
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Pablo wrote:
Stallion wrote:
Taylor Mays 4.24 :shock:


I've heard Mays ran a 4.43. still fast but not shockingly fast as a 4.24


Yes. That is correct. The 4.24 was an errant report.


March 3rd, 2010, 2:50 am
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So who put on a show at the Combine? A few I noticed off the top of my head. I have to preface this by saying I don't think of myself as a scout or authority on scouting. I just noticed a few guys for a variety of reasons.

At OT, obviously Bruce Campbell helped himself a lot. He might have made a case for himself as a first round pick although I personally wouldn't draft him in the first. Dorian Brooks from James Madison looked like he might be draftable. Trent Williams looked more athletic than I thought he would and Shelley Smith from Colorado State caught my eye (although I confess I only saw a little of his work).

Did any QBs look good? Nobody jumped out at me.

Best and Spiller showed their speed, which we all anticipated. Dexter McCluster, whether he's a slot WR or a RB, didn't have a great 40 time. The 4.5 range is certainly adequate NFL speed but I thought he'd put up a big number. The guy that really helped himself was Ben Tate. He put up great workout numbers and he was a productive player in the best college conference.

Marcus Easley and Riley Cooper looked good catching the ball I thought. Easley showed good speed too. I didn't get to see a lot of WR stuff but I noticed both of these guys.

Suh was a stud. If he's there at the #2 pick, the Lions have to take him unless there is a great trade offer. I'm partial to Dan Williams and I thought he looked trim--definitely can play 3-technique. A lot of folks are talking about him strictly as a NT but I don't think that is the case at all.

Eric Berry looked great. Easily the best looking safety at the Combine.

Brandon Ghee helped himself, as did AJ Jefferson and Devin McCourty. I'd be happy with Brandon Ghee at the #34 pick although some will say that is too early. Kyle Wilson put up 25 reps in the bench--more than Gerald McCoy! Javier Arenas pulled up while running his 40 and had to cut the workout short--I really wanted to see him against the other guys.

Who did you notice?

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March 3rd, 2010, 10:39 am
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Take this for what it's worth:
Pro Football Weekly wrote:
Combine winners and losers.
By Nolan Nawrocki

For as much is made about workout results at the NFL Scouting Combine, it is not numbers that have the greatest meaning to NFL teams. They already spent most of the fall assessing talent, with most teams having held meetings in the weeks leading up to the Combine to set their draft boards based on football-playing evaluations, which will comprise 90 percent of a player's final grade.

Combine testing helps break ties and forces evaluators to revisit the tape of performers who stand out, good or bad. What is valued most highly by NFL decision makers are the medical evaluations performed by team doctors and the 15-minute interview sessions with players, which help give a glimpse of player personalities and allow teams to assess any blemishes on their records and figure out if they would like to spend more time courting prospects through the spring workout process.

With evaluators having had less time to assess a junior class that only became official in mid-January, the evaluation of the underclassmen is especially important, as measurables are verified and character is dissected.

Following are 10 players who have helped themselves in Indianapolis and 10 who have raised concerns, with the highly scrutinized underclassmen marked by an asterisk. The players are listed alphabetically.



Ten risers

OT Bruce Campbell, Maryland*
The football gods could not sculpt a better-looking physical specimen, and Campbell worked out like a phenom, clocking in the high 4.7s in the 40-yard-dash, producing times better than some receivers and defensive backs at 314 pounds. His 36 1/4-inch arms were a Combine-best for offensive linemen and will allow him to recover much more easily at the next level when he gets out of position, which he unfortunately does too often. The tape of Campbell playing like a first-round talent does not exist, but with impulsive decision makers dotting the first round, Campbell very well cemented his place in Round One with his performance, right or wrong. Whether he will ever live up to that lofty draft status remains to be seen.

DE-OLB Jerry Hughes, TCU
A college defensive end who projects to rush linebacker in the pros, Hughes was not asked to drop heavily at TCU, but he looked as smooth and fluid as any defensive lineman when he was passed through LB drills, with very clean footwork and balance that should allow for a wrinkle-free transition. Was clocked at an exceptionally quick 1.53 seconds in the 10-yard dash, showing the type of burst and acceleration that could make him a feared pass rusher in an even or odd front. He very likely solidified a spot in the first round, with much better production and tape than Larry English had a year ago.

OG John Jerry, Mississippi
Has gradually cut his weight during the season from 350-plus pounds a year ago to a svelte 328 at the Combine and moved much better than expected, showing good agility and natural bend for a big body. Has excellent bloodlines and may not fit into the first round like his brother, Peria, did last year, with questions still remaining about how well he will be able to adapt to sliding protections in a pro-style offense, but he may have moved into the second round with his performance.

DT Linval Joseph, East Carolina*
The early entrant showed exceptional strength when he repped out 225 pounds 39 times, and his strength and overall length, with 34 1/2-inch arms, could make him a commodity for an odd front, with ability to play inside or outside and stack the point. He is still raw on tape and has room to develop, but he is very unlikely to fall out of the top three rounds after the way he performed in Indianapolis.

RB Ryan Mathews, Fresno State*
In an uninspiring RB class, Mathews stood out as a gem of the Combine, along with Tennessee's Montario Hardesty and Auburn's Ben Tate, clocking in the mid-4.4s in the 40-yard dash at 218 pounds. Despite not having been used much in the passing game at Fresno State, he also caught the ball very well in drills, even showing he could track it over his shoulder. He is the best bell-cow back in the draft and may rise into the first round after performing very well.

OLB Eric Norwood, South Carolina
Norwood entered the Combine with questions about where he would play, having appeared less instinctive playing on his feet than when he lined up with his hand on the ground to rush the passer on third downs. However, he moved around very well in drills and despite measuring barely above 6-feet flat, he did have among the longer arms of any linebacker at 33 3/8 inches and should have a very safe landing spot potentially in the second round in an aggressive "30" front such as the Steelers' or Ravens'.

TE Dennis Pitta, Brigham Young
For a player not known for his athletic ability, Pitta tested much better than expected, clocking in the low 4.6s in the 40-yard dash and pacing all tight ends in each of the three shuttle drills, demonstrating the impressive agility that allows him to separate with quickness on the field. But even more impressively, when it came to drill work, he caught everything, appeared smooth adjusting to the ball and made the game look very easy with how seamlessly he caught it in stride. He may have solidified a place in the second round after how well he showed in Indianapolis.

OT Rodger Saffold, Indiana
Despite starting at left tackle the last four years, Saffold has been projected to guard by many NFL teams because of concerns about his overall length. However, after appearing very fluid in drills and measuring out longer than expected, at 6-4 5/8 with 33 5/8-inch arms, more than an inch longer than they registered in the spring of 2009, there is a good chance he could stick at left tackle, and there has been discussion of considering him in the bottom of the first round. Medical results regarding back pain he has played through could still have an effect.

QB Tim Tebow, Florida
Tebow did not throw at the Combine, but he did take the time to thoroughly explain his enhanced mechanics on camera, worked out extremely well for a quarterback and commanded the room during interview sessions. Whether he can effectively overhaul his pitcher-like, long delivery remains a big question that has left the vast majority of evaluators skeptical, but he left no questions about his intelligence, determination or intangibles, carrying himself like a pro's pro. And some evaluators were quietly enthused about his potential as an H-back after he leaped 38½ inches, clocking in the low 4.7s in the 40-yard dash and producing a blistering 6.66-second three-cone time.

FS Earl Thomas, Texas*
After playing late in the season considerably lighter than he weighed in at the Combine, evaluators were left to wonder whether he was one of the bloated-looking Combine participants who downed a gallon of water before he stepped on the scale, with the old trick known for adding 8-10 pounds of water weight. Regardless of how he put on the weight, the key is that it did not affect his performance in the Combine drills, as he still registered a sub-4.5 time in the 40, looked very agile in drills and showed the ball skills that made him stand out at Texas. Interviewing very well should only further enhance his status.



Ten sliders

WR Dezmon Briscoe, Kansas*
Despite catching the ball well in the gauntlet drills, the long strider registered a rather pedestrian 40-yard dash, clocking in the low-to-mid 4.6s on NFL watches, and bench-pressed 225 pounds only nine times, fewer than all three specialists who worked out, including the 166-pound Trindon Holliday. Briscoe's lack of strength and speed very clearly will reduce him to a possession role and will diminish his value.

OT Anthony Davis, Rutgers*
Known to abhor the weight room at Rutgers and rely far too much on his natural ability, Davis showed up at the Combine looking sloppy-bodied and overweight. At 323 pounds, he clocked above 5.4 in the 40 on some watches and managed only 21 reps of 225 pounds, the fewest of any of the top four tackles who grade out the highest in the draft on tape. Known for consistently being late and not being accountable in college, Davis demonstrated his immaturity during interviews.

DE Carlos Dunlap, Florida*
Dunlap did not come to Indianapolis appearing ready mentally or physically, looking too stiff, upright and narrow-based as he went through drill work and coming off as extremely immature during the interview process, clearly not knowing what he does not know, as one executive described it. A DWI arrest four days in advance of the SEC championship game and a subsequent suspension have done nothing to convince evaluators that he is ready to shake the career underachiever label that he is expected to carry to the pro level.

RB Jonathan Dwyer, Georgia Tech*
Dwyer cut nearly 20 pounds after playing this season around 250, but the rapid weight loss was noticeable in his Combine appearance. He carried a lot of extra flesh, showing little to no muscle definition, and his speed did not improve, as he barely cracked the 4.6 mark. Having played in a triple-option offense where he was utilized similarly to a traditional fullback, Dwyer had enough questions to answer about how his skills would translate to a pro-style offense. Now he has evaluators left wondering if he might not be best in the pros as an athletic fullback. With former Yellow Jackets coach Chan Gailey having said that Dwyer's weight has fluctuated greatly dating back to high school, executives are only left to wonder what weight he will show up at in a training camp after a big payday. The fourth-round grade some evaluators stamped on him, based on tape evaluations, now does not look far from reality.

CB Joe Haden, Florida*
Expected to clock in the 4.3s heading into the Combine with explosive short-area quickness out of his breaks on tape, Haden ran slower than some linebackers in the 40-yard dash, timing above 4.6 on some watches and appearing heavy in his movement. Although he does play faster than he timed, his marginal times will force evaluators to revisit his tape and could quite possibly knock him off the perch as the draft's top corner. Taking false steps out of his transition while making speed turns and not appearing crisp with his footwork in drills did not help his cause, as he appeared very ill-prepared all the way through the event. With a chance to have warranted top-10 consideration had he lived up to the hype, the 40-game starter now has questions to answer and may want to consider finding a more experienced speed coach than his overinvolved father before the Gators' pro day in several weeks.

S Chad Jones, LSU*
Having stood out on the diamond as an outfielder at LSU and gone on record saying baseball is his first passion, Jones had some questions to answer during interviews about how he would handle adversity if his football career did not go his way. He did nothing to squash perceptions that he cannot be trusted to maximize his talent, as his interview was described as one of the worst of the allotted 60 that every team is given. Not only did he appear dispassionate in interviews, he clocked in the high 4.5s in the 40 — slower than expected — and repped 225 pounds only nine times at 221 pounds, poor for a safety of his size, regardless of whether baseball has affected his conditioning.

TE Anthony McCoy, USC
McCoy registered fairly pedestrian 40-times above 4.8 and followed it up by getting beat up by the ball in the gauntlet drills, where he weaved off the line, showing stiff hips, and slowed to absorb the ball, letting it into his body instead of catching it naturally in his hands. He also struggled to adjust to a catchable ball thrown behind him and lacked concentration, double-catching and bobbling the ball.

OG Dace Richardson, Iowa
Richardson appeared very heavy-legged running the 40-yard dash, coming close to clocking a Rich Eisen-esque 6.0-flat, and looked like a wagon was attached to his waist as he went through drills. Posting a marginal 19 reps in the 225-pound bench-press test also showed his lack of physical development and strength.

OLB Sean Weatherspoon, Missouri
For as well as Weatherspoon worked out on the field and for as much as his "character" is praised within the Missouri program, he has turned off a number of decision makers just as much with his outlandish, look-at-me, loudmouth personality and has been criticized for worrying too much about his image and post-football career aspirations before he has accomplished anything in the National Football League. "He never shuts up," one top executive said. "He was the loudest guy in the room for the bench press. He gives me a headache. I think he is full of (it). It's all about himself. I don't want him in my locker room."

WR Mike Williams, Syracuse*
Entering the draft early after having had to sit out the 2008 season due to academics and having quit the Orange squad midway through his junior campaign, Williams came into the Combine with mighty questions to answer. Instead of coming clean with coaches and executives who questioned his motives, he continually talked in circles, refused to own up to his mistakes and was left being compared to Maurice Clarett from a maturity and intelligence standpoint by one GM who suffered through the interview. Producing a Combine WR-worst eight reps in the 225-pound bench-press test, despite being one of the three heaviest receivers at the event, also did nothing to convince executives that he works as hard as he claims or that football is important to him.

The past few days, I've been hearing a lot about Sean Weatherspoon's me-first attitude. I honestly never knew that before, and I suspect that he's now one of those guys that Mayhew said he wouldn't draft.

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March 3rd, 2010, 11:57 am
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m2karateman wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Did anyone see the bench press results for the DL yesterday, Suh had 32 but McCoy only had 23. I think that will help solidify Suh as the top DT in the draft - I'm a bit surprised at how lows McCoy's reps were at, you would have think he had been working hard to have a good number here.


That is pretty sad that McCoy only threw up 23 reps?


I thought McCoy had 26...and who cares? How many times is the guy gonna be asked to bench press a RB? The bench press is about endurance, not overall strength. In addition, McCoy relies more on technique and quickness than Suh....which is why Suh has more bust potential than McCoy. Not saying he will be a bust, just saying his potential to bust is greater than McCoy's in that regard.


Uhhh. This is a pretty important drill for Dlinemen that need to be able to shed Olineman. :roll: Come on M2K you got to admit that 23 reps for a guy tabbed to be the possible #1 pick is pretty weak. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, but it does add some validity to some of the tape that I watched on McCoy where he was man handled on multiple occasions. Just sayin...

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March 3rd, 2010, 7:55 pm
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My boy Thaddeus Gibson pumped out 32, leading the DE's. We should take a look.

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March 3rd, 2010, 8:09 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Did anyone see the bench press results for the DL yesterday, Suh had 32 but McCoy only had 23. I think that will help solidify Suh as the top DT in the draft - I'm a bit surprised at how lows McCoy's reps were at, you would have think he had been working hard to have a good number here.


That is pretty sad that McCoy only threw up 23 reps?


I thought McCoy had 26...and who cares? How many times is the guy gonna be asked to bench press a RB? The bench press is about endurance, not overall strength. In addition, McCoy relies more on technique and quickness than Suh....which is why Suh has more bust potential than McCoy. Not saying he will be a bust, just saying his potential to bust is greater than McCoy's in that regard.


Uhhh. This is a pretty important drill for Dlinemen that need to be able to shed Olineman. :roll: Come on M2K you got to admit that 23 reps for a guy tabbed to be the possible #1 pick is pretty weak. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, but it does add some validity to some of the tape that I watched on McCoy where he was man handled on multiple occasions. Just sayin...


I HATE the combine, but 23 is weak. Bench is a good showing of upper body strength and the punch power to blow up centers and gaurds off the snap.

Hell, there's usually one QB who throws up 23-24 reps every year.

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March 3rd, 2010, 9:18 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Did anyone see the bench press results for the DL yesterday, Suh had 32 but McCoy only had 23. I think that will help solidify Suh as the top DT in the draft - I'm a bit surprised at how lows McCoy's reps were at, you would have think he had been working hard to have a good number here.


That is pretty sad that McCoy only threw up 23 reps?


I thought McCoy had 26...and who cares? How many times is the guy gonna be asked to bench press a RB? The bench press is about endurance, not overall strength. In addition, McCoy relies more on technique and quickness than Suh....which is why Suh has more bust potential than McCoy. Not saying he will be a bust, just saying his potential to bust is greater than McCoy's in that regard.


Uhhh. This is a pretty important drill for Dlinemen that need to be able to shed Olineman. :roll: Come on M2K you got to admit that 23 reps for a guy tabbed to be the possible #1 pick is pretty weak. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, but it does add some validity to some of the tape that I watched on McCoy where he was man handled on multiple occasions. Just sayin...


Uhhhh...no, it's not. D-linemen aren't going to shed offensive blockers by bench pressing them. It's a matter of quick hands and leverage. I wasn't impressed with his 23 reps, but there have been guys in the past who put up the bar a bunch more and aren't in the NFL. EVERY player gets manhandled now and again, even "King King" Suh. Upper body strength is a good thing to have, don't get me wrong. But it's not the end all be all for defensive linemen, or offensive linemen for that matter.

I'm telling you, people put WAAAAAAY too much into these combine workout numbers.....and I realize it only takes one scout, one coach or one GM to fall in love with the numbers and make the wrong call on a guy. But just because a guy is taken in the first round does NOT make him a first round talent.

You are starting to see some guys fall now because of their interviews and attitudes, which can be far more important. Anthony Davis=immature and lazy, Sean Weatherspoon=egotistical, Carlos Dunlap=dispassionate attitude......these are the guys really killing themselves in the coming weeks. At a time when you are supposed to be performing your best, there could be a number of reasons why on this particular day you didn't really shine. But if you give a really bad impression on a personal level in a short 15 minute period on a day when there are no excuses to not exude a healthy attitude, you've pretty much screwed yourself unless you have phenomenal talent. Davis, Weatherspoon and Dunlap will probably all still go in round one, but certainly they have some teams now that want nothing to do with them.


March 3rd, 2010, 9:54 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Did anyone see the bench press results for the DL yesterday, Suh had 32 but McCoy only had 23. I think that will help solidify Suh as the top DT in the draft - I'm a bit surprised at how lows McCoy's reps were at, you would have think he had been working hard to have a good number here.


That is pretty sad that McCoy only threw up 23 reps?


I thought McCoy had 26...and who cares? How many times is the guy gonna be asked to bench press a RB? The bench press is about endurance, not overall strength. In addition, McCoy relies more on technique and quickness than Suh....which is why Suh has more bust potential than McCoy. Not saying he will be a bust, just saying his potential to bust is greater than McCoy's in that regard.


Uhhh. This is a pretty important drill for Dlinemen that need to be able to shed Olineman. :roll: Come on M2K you got to admit that 23 reps for a guy tabbed to be the possible #1 pick is pretty weak. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, but it does add some validity to some of the tape that I watched on McCoy where he was man handled on multiple occasions. Just sayin...


Uhhhh...no, it's not. D-linemen aren't going to shed offensive blockers by bench pressing them. It's a matter of quick hands and leverage. I wasn't impressed with his 23 reps, but there have been guys in the past who put up the bar a bunch more and aren't in the NFL. EVERY player gets manhandled now and again, even "King King" Suh. Upper body strength is a good thing to have, don't get me wrong. But it's not the end all be all for defensive linemen, or offensive linemen for that matter.

I'm telling you, people put WAAAAAAY too much into these combine workout numbers.....and I realize it only takes one scout, one coach or one GM to fall in love with the numbers and make the wrong call on a guy. But just because a guy is taken in the first round does NOT make him a first round talent.

You are starting to see some guys fall now because of their interviews and attitudes, which can be far more important. Anthony Davis=immature and lazy, Sean Weatherspoon=egotistical, Carlos Dunlap=dispassionate attitude......these are the guys really killing themselves in the coming weeks. At a time when you are supposed to be performing your best, there could be a number of reasons why on this particular day you didn't really shine. But if you give a really bad impression on a personal level in a short 15 minute period on a day when there are no excuses to not exude a healthy attitude, you've pretty much screwed yourself unless you have phenomenal talent. Davis, Weatherspoon and Dunlap will probably all still go in round one, but certainly they have some teams now that want nothing to do with them.


You should re-read the post. I'm not saying that McCoy is a failure and sure to bust because he only put up 23 reps, I'm saying that this is one drill that I expected him to do better than he did. I don't think he is a bad player, I happen to think he is a good player, but your wrong if you do not think that strength is one of the key components to a lineman's resume. The other side to this is not how many reps he put up, but what his work ethic is? I think more teams will take away points for him not working harder to impress in this drill. Will it drop him out of the top 5, no way, he is a damn good player, he just might need to work harder.

Furthermore, I think you'll be hard pressed to find me harping and posting on drills at the combine and the reason is that I too think people put to much stock in the combine. You have to take it for what it is, a measurement tool too see who stands out above the crowd in a controlled test.

No different than testing automobiles, the fastest and prettiest may not always be the best! :wink:

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March 3rd, 2010, 10:33 pm
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I agree, TNLF. The bench press in particular can be useful in separating the gym rats from the guys who maybe don't work as hard. When you see a CB like Kyle Wilson put up 25 reps you can bet he likes to work. When a 300 pounder puts up 23 reps, I think it is fair to at least consider the possibility that for one reason or another the guy isn't working as hard as he could.

While the bench may not translate directly to the game, I imagine there is sometimes a correlation between bench press performance and work ethic.

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March 3rd, 2010, 11:13 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:

You should re-read the post. I'm not saying that McCoy is a failure and sure to bust because he only put up 23 reps, I'm saying that this is one drill that I expected him to do better than he did. I don't think he is a bad player, I happen to think he is a good player, but your wrong if you do not think that strength is one of the key components to a lineman's resume. The other side to this is not how many reps he put up, but what his work ethic is? I think more teams will take away points for him not working harder to impress in this drill. Will it drop him out of the top 5, no way, he is a damn good player, he just might need to work harder.

Furthermore, I think you'll be hard pressed to find me harping and posting on drills at the combine and the reason is that I too think people put to much stock in the combine. You have to take it for what it is, a measurement tool too see who stands out above the crowd in a controlled test.

No different than testing automobiles, the fastest and prettiest may not always be the best! :wink:


First, I never said anything about you stating McCoy would be a failure, so I'm not sure where that is coming from.

Second, the bench press at the Combines is not about arm strength as much as it is arm endurance. You are stating because he only put up the bar 23 times he needs to work harder, and that's a statement without much foundation. Were McCoy to have a work ethic problem, it would be out in the open by now. Any player considered to be a top ten, let alone top five, talent is scrutinized such that if some questions about that existed it would be big news. It's exactly why the issues about Anthony Davis and Carlos Dunlap and their poor interviews aren't really all that shocking; it was known going into these workouts that both players had attitude issues.

Like I said, I would have expected McCoy to put the bar up more than 23 times. As a matter of fact, he did. It was just that only 23 counted because on the other ones he didn't lock out his arms all the way. So be it. I'd still prefer to look at his overall body of work.

In reality, we're kind of splitting hairs here.....but there's little else to talk about. :P


March 3rd, 2010, 11:17 pm
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mwill2 wrote:
I agree, TNLF. The bench press in particular can be useful in separating the gym rats from the guys who maybe don't work as hard. When you see a CB like Kyle Wilson put up 25 reps you can bet he likes to work. When a 300 pounder puts up 23 reps, I think it is fair to at least consider the possibility that for one reason or another the guy isn't working as hard as he could.

While the bench may not translate directly to the game, I imagine there is sometimes a correlation between bench press performance and work ethic.


See....this is what I mean. Last season Jason Smith put the bar up 33 times, was taken second overall, and wasn't even close to being a factor for St. Louis. Michael Oher put the bar up only 23 times, slipped in the draft due to "work ethic" concerns, and Baltimore reaped the benefits.

I know that there were other concerns with Oher, but the point is his Combine performance and other issues were WAAY over-analyzed. Even I was guilty of over-analyzing his issues (his Combine performance didn't faze me).

It could VERY well be that while Suh can lift 225 lbs more often, McCoy can lift more weight overall. Who knows? And in reality, nobody should care all that much. They're football players, not Olympic weight lifters.

Judging a player by one workout is ludicrous. Perhaps the reason his performance didn't rate is because he worked out a little too much and was suffering from muscle fatigue? I'm not making excuses, but this is the over-analyzation I'm talking about. Not one scout, coach or GM should feel any different about players now than they did before the Combine based on their workout numbers. Position drills and interviews are what should be taken into account for helping the adjustments made on the player grades, if any.


March 3rd, 2010, 11:26 pm
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And this is why I used the following phrases:

"can be useful"

"maybe don't work as hard"

"fair to at least consider the possibility"

"for one reason or another"

"may not translate directly"

"sometimes a correlation"

I think McCoy's bench reps are a tiny tiny red flag, nothing to get worked up about. It is a piece of the puzzle that deserves consideration and investigation; I certainly wouldn't take McCoy off my draft board completely.

More telling, I think, is that Suh performed well in all the physical tests while McCoy had some struggles. If the two guys were truly "even" before the Combine then I imagine Suh might have moved ahead a bit.

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March 3rd, 2010, 11:48 pm
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I didn't need know stinking combine to make my decision. It was made months ago.

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March 4th, 2010, 4:51 am
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