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 Okung over Suh - Could happen 
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NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA:

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It also seems like the Lions have a draft dilemma. As good as Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh and Oklahoma’s Gerald McCoy might be, the Lions don’t appear enamored with drafting a defensive tackle No. 2 overall and giving him the corresponding gigantic contract. Mayhew, usually low-key and guarded, has been conspicuously open about his desire to trade down. But if the Lions stay at No. 2, Suh or McCoy might be the best player available.

What I wonder is how much the Lions really like Oklahoma State left tackle Russell Okung, who visited team headquarters today. Teams generally feel more comfortable taking left tackles that high in the draft and paying them that kind of money. A good left tackle could help protect the Lions’ biggest investment: quarterback Matthew Stafford, last year’s No. 1 pick. A good left tackle also could bump 32-year-old left tackle Jeff Backus to left guard, extending his career and plugging another hole.

But is Okung good enough to go No. 2 over Suh and McCoy, or do the Lions hope to trade down so they can take Okung?

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March 16th, 2010, 7:34 pm
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Leo wrote:
NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA:

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It also seems like the Lions have a draft dilemma. As good as Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh and Oklahoma’s Gerald McCoy might be, the Lions don’t appear enamored with drafting a defensive tackle No. 2 overall and giving him the corresponding gigantic contract. Mayhew, usually low-key and guarded, has been conspicuously open about his desire to trade down. But if the Lions stay at No. 2, Suh or McCoy might be the best player available.

What I wonder is how much the Lions really like Oklahoma State left tackle Russell Okung, who visited team headquarters today. Teams generally feel more comfortable taking left tackles that high in the draft and paying them that kind of money. A good left tackle could help protect the Lions’ biggest investment: quarterback Matthew Stafford, last year’s No. 1 pick. A good left tackle also could bump 32-year-old left tackle Jeff Backus to left guard, extending his career and plugging another hole.

But is Okung good enough to go No. 2 over Suh and McCoy, or do the Lions hope to trade down so they can take Okung?


It would be painful to watch them pick Okung at 2 with Suh sitting there, even if it helps the offensive line. Geez our defense is just so terrible. If they take Okung, I hope it's because they worked out trade and moved back and got some additional early round picks thrown in.

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March 16th, 2010, 9:47 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Leo wrote:
NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA:

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It also seems like the Lions have a draft dilemma. As good as Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh and Oklahoma’s Gerald McCoy might be, the Lions don’t appear enamored with drafting a defensive tackle No. 2 overall and giving him the corresponding gigantic contract. Mayhew, usually low-key and guarded, has been conspicuously open about his desire to trade down. But if the Lions stay at No. 2, Suh or McCoy might be the best player available.

What I wonder is how much the Lions really like Oklahoma State left tackle Russell Okung, who visited team headquarters today. Teams generally feel more comfortable taking left tackles that high in the draft and paying them that kind of money. A good left tackle could help protect the Lions’ biggest investment: quarterback Matthew Stafford, last year’s No. 1 pick. A good left tackle also could bump 32-year-old left tackle Jeff Backus to left guard, extending his career and plugging another hole.

But is Okung good enough to go No. 2 over Suh and McCoy, or do the Lions hope to trade down so they can take Okung?


It would be painful to watch them pick Okung at 2 with Suh sitting there, even if it helps the offensive line. Geez our defense is just so terrible. If they take Okung, I hope it's because they worked out trade and moved back and got some additional early round picks thrown in.


The defense WAS horrible... I'm not saying we fixed it by any stretch, but we did obtain two new corners, and two new DLman, one of which is a former pro-bowl player. You can't discount that.


March 16th, 2010, 10:29 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
Leo wrote:
NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA:

Quote:
It also seems like the Lions have a draft dilemma. As good as Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh and Oklahoma’s Gerald McCoy might be, the Lions don’t appear enamored with drafting a defensive tackle No. 2 overall and giving him the corresponding gigantic contract. Mayhew, usually low-key and guarded, has been conspicuously open about his desire to trade down. But if the Lions stay at No. 2, Suh or McCoy might be the best player available.

What I wonder is how much the Lions really like Oklahoma State left tackle Russell Okung, who visited team headquarters today. Teams generally feel more comfortable taking left tackles that high in the draft and paying them that kind of money. A good left tackle could help protect the Lions’ biggest investment: quarterback Matthew Stafford, last year’s No. 1 pick. A good left tackle also could bump 32-year-old left tackle Jeff Backus to left guard, extending his career and plugging another hole.

But is Okung good enough to go No. 2 over Suh and McCoy, or do the Lions hope to trade down so they can take Okung?


It would be painful to watch them pick Okung at 2 with Suh sitting there, even if it helps the offensive line. Geez our defense is just so terrible. If they take Okung, I hope it's because they worked out trade and moved back and got some additional early round picks thrown in.


The defense WAS horrible... I'm not saying we fixed it by any stretch, but we did obtain two new corners, and two new DLman, one of which is a former pro-bowl player. You can't discount that.


True. I just can't help but think that a dominant DLine makes those average corners we picked up better. I like what the FO has done/is doing so I'm not gonna complain. :wink:

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March 16th, 2010, 11:19 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:
True. I just can't help but think that a dominant DLine makes those average corners we picked up better. I like what the FO has done/is doing so I'm not gonna complain. :wink:


I'm not trying to say that the D is "fixed," that I want Okung, that our DL is fine, or anything else. That said, people are acting like we HAVE to take Suh because our defense sucks, but IMO KVB is (or near) the equivalent of spending a first round pick on D. That may not mean that we don't need another, but for me the DL is by far not the weakest unit on the team (with the additions of Corey Williams and KVB). I think automatically the DL will help out the CBs much more, and I also think our CBs are already better, right now, than they were last year.

Still, however, I think CB is the weakest link on our defense and the weakest link on the team. I honestly think that this team could have signed Peppers and drafted Suh and it wouldn't have mattered much with how bad our secondary is. Remember, the D is a collective unit and as much as the DL helps the DBs the DBs help the DL by giving the DL time to get to the Qb. We absolutely HAVE to get one starting CB in the draft (or FA/trade I guess) if this team is going to be above average next year.

For that reason I wouldn't mind trading down and taking Haden, or trading down and back up again to the end of the first and getting Wilson (I almost prefer Wilson honestly). I only wish that Berry was/is the player that everyone thinks he will be (a pro bowl, ball hawking, coverage FS that can still hit and make tackles). If he were that guy I think he and Wilson could make this defense more than respectable. However, I have a feeling that Berry is good, but not great. I don't think he will be as physical in the NFL and I don't think that he's going to be the guy that everyone wants him to be. For that reason I won't be totally disappointed if we do not go D on our first round pick.

IF we stay at 2 I can't support Okung... It's simply poor value. That said, I would move down for peanuts and take him around 4-5 and save a TON of money in the process... I wish I had more access to make a more accurate evaluation/determination, but I wouldn't mind trading down to 10-15 and taking RT Williams and moving Gos to OG...


March 17th, 2010, 12:59 am
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I was listening to Sirius NFL Radio last night and Gil Brandt was going bananas about Okung. Brandt made Okung sound like a can't-miss kind of guy. I hadn't heard many really ringing endorsements of Okung but Brandt's enthusiasm is probably worth considering.

At this point I still want Suh if we stay at #2 but if they take a good look at Okung and like him as much as Gil Brandt does, I won't complain about that pick.

If they really like Okung, it would be awesome to get him at #4...

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Last edited by mwill2 on March 17th, 2010, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.



March 17th, 2010, 10:24 am
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I'm smelling a negotiation smoke screen. Sound familiar? Stafford v. Curry 2009. A team gets committed to a player they feel confident they can draft and start the chatter about other players to drop the price.(not to insinuate that it worked that year!) Unless of course they truly are trying to trade down. Then the pick makes sense to me and I'd be fine with it if the value is sensible.


March 17th, 2010, 11:06 am
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Personally at this point you could flip a coin between the two.

The gap isn't as large as some people are trying to make Okung is not going to last past the 6th pick in the draft. Okung is actually a better prospect than last years #2 pick Jason Smith and has been compared to D'Brickashaw Ferguson who might not be in the Jake Long or Joe Thomas class but I would totally spend a #2 pick on.

As for Suh he needs to be the Warren Sapp to worthy of the #2 overall pick he can't be the next Gerald Warren was good DT but never worth the #3 pick overall.

What it really going to come down to is Suh's ability to rush the passer. Suh was mostly just a bullrusher in college something he can't get away with in the pros. Which is why many believe McCoy is better pick because he's a more refined pass rusher.

Who knows at this point - all I know is Mayhew can't afford to get it wrong.

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March 17th, 2010, 1:09 pm
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Leo wrote:
Personally at this point you could flip a coin between the two.

The gap isn't as large as some people are trying to make Okung is not going to last past the 6th pick in the draft. Okung is actually a better prospect than last years #2 pick Jason Smith and has been compared to D'Brickashaw Ferguson who might not be in the Jake Long or Joe Thomas class but I would totally spend a #2 pick on.

As for Suh he needs to be the Warren Sapp to worthy of the #2 overall pick he can't be the next Gerald Warren was good DT but never worth the #3 pick overall.

What it really going to come down to is Suh's ability to rush the passer. Suh was mostly just a bullrusher in college something he can't get away with in the pros. Which is why many believe McCoy is better pick because he's a more refined pass rusher.

Who knows at this point - all I know is Mayhew can't afford to get it wrong.


this is all a repeat of the year we drafted CJ. ask yourself this: if we went with the philosophy talked about in this thread we would not have CJ on the roster.....How Bad would our Offense have been last year without him? Quite possibly as embarrasing as our D? worse?

You DON't pass up on players that look like they could very well be the best at thier position for years. No matter what THIS YEARS needs may be....you can always fix that next year...but probably wont be offered a chance at another possible perenial pro-bowler.

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March 17th, 2010, 1:21 pm
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man...I just dont know anymore. Everyone provides very logical points about who we should draft, and why. I want Suh, but there are several points as to why we shouldnt take him. Id also like to to trade down and get a Berry, Iupati, Okung, Haden....but who would we be able to get?

Then theres the 2nd round...

I know one thing, NO ONE can argue this is gonna be one of the most interesting drafts in recent years.

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March 17th, 2010, 2:23 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
I'm not trying to say that the D is "fixed," that I want Okung, that our DL is fine, or anything else. That said, people are acting like we HAVE to take Suh because our defense sucks, but IMO KVB is (or near) the equivalent of spending a first round pick on D. That may not mean that we don't need another, but for me the DL is by far not the weakest unit on the team (with the additions of Corey Williams and KVB). I think automatically the DL will help out the CBs much more, and I also think our CBs are already better, right now, than they were last year.


Last year we were thinking the same thing when we got Buchanon, Henry and James later on. They actually turned out to be worse than our CB crew from 2008. Even adding an somewhat accomplished safety in Louis Delmas didn't help these guys. That said, I do believe Houston and Wade are a better fit for the blitz scheme Gunner uses, but certainly they could turn out to be horrid as cover corners.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
Still, however, I think CB is the weakest link on our defense and the weakest link on the team. I honestly think that this team could have signed Peppers and drafted Suh and it wouldn't have mattered much with how bad our secondary is. Remember, the D is a collective unit and as much as the DL helps the DBs the DBs help the DL by giving the DL time to get to the Qb. We absolutely HAVE to get one starting CB in the draft (or FA/trade I guess) if this team is going to be above average next year.


Absolutely agree. I hate when people say that getting a better D-line automatically improves the secondary. It is a hand in hand arrangement. If the D-lines sucks, the best coverage unit in the land isn't going to look good because if you give a QB enough time, he'll find an open receiver. Likewise, if you have a good D-line but a crap secondary, the QB takes a shorter drop and the receiver will be able to quickly shake the coverage and there will be room for an NFL QB to thread the needle. It was what was happening last season.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
For that reason I wouldn't mind trading down and taking Haden, or trading down and back up again to the end of the first and getting Wilson (I almost prefer Wilson honestly). I only wish that Berry was/is the player that everyone thinks he will be (a pro bowl, ball hawking, coverage FS that can still hit and make tackles). If he were that guy I think he and Wilson could make this defense more than respectable. However, I have a feeling that Berry is good, but not great. I don't think he will be as physical in the NFL and I don't think that he's going to be the guy that everyone wants him to be. For that reason I won't be totally disappointed if we do not go D on our first round pick.


What would be great is if we could get a trade in with Seattle, get both their first rounders, and then take Berry at 6 and Dan Williams at 14. As much as I like Suh and McCoy, to get Berry and Williams would be to our advantage. Williams may not have the closing speed, but he's as disruptive as hell and would push the QB out of the pocket and into the arms (hopefully) of our ends or blitzing LBs. That is why the Lions traded for Corey Williams, to get that interior pass rusher at 320 lbs. Imagine having two of them. Berry teamed with Delmas would definitely help our corners. I would imagine that the Lions would even strongly consider moving Berry to corner. I watched his Combine positional workouts, and his smooth backpedal and turns were better than all the corners....that's right, ALL of them. I wasn't a fan of his during the season. I saw some missed tackles, and what seemed to be missed coverage assignments...but perhaps he'd improve under Gunner and Schwartz. The skills are there, that's for sure.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
IF we stay at 2 I can't support Okung... It's simply poor value. That said, I would move down for peanuts and take him around 4-5 and save a TON of money in the process... I wish I had more access to make a more accurate evaluation/determination, but I wouldn't mind trading down to 10-15 and taking RT Williams and moving Gos to OG...


I agree. I don't think Okung is that much better than Trent Williams or Bryan Bulaga. If the Lions really do think they need an OT, then I'd want them to trade down (which I want them to do anyways, Suh's knee issues concern me). While I don't see Seattle parting with their two first rounders, I could envision a team like Cleveland wanting to get McCoy or Suh as a 34 DE and having the ammo to move up. I do not, however, foresee any team wanting to move up to guarantee landing Okung or Clausen, if the Rams take Bradford.

In my opinion, I would not even move Gos to OG...I'd cut him outright. He has not improved one iota since his arrival. His selection was an incredibly stupid reach, and they can cast him out without worrying about a cap hit this year. He's a waste, and looks no different to me than Stockar McDougle did.


March 17th, 2010, 2:46 pm
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THis debate hits ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_ ... ic-reasons

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March 17th, 2010, 3:09 pm
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M2..

You make some very good points that I agree with. Two of them especially.

1. Trading down (of course), and taking Berry and Dan Williams. Berry, well..no need for explanation on that. But Dan Williams actually fits the "size" Schwartz is looking for in a DT. Not to mentioned trading down would save us money.

2. Canning Goz...I say give him this year and if he doesnt improve at all, hes gone.


About the trading down portion, I wouldnt mind with the lower pick to draft Mike Iupati. I, myself, would rather have an actual guard rather than moving a tackle to guard.

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March 17th, 2010, 3:17 pm
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Just wondering, but why would you get rid of Goz? If he doesn't work out at RT, can't you see about moving him inside to RG?

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March 17th, 2010, 3:31 pm
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TheRealWags wrote:
Just wondering, but why would you get rid of Goz? If he doesn't work out at RT, can't you see about moving him inside to RG?


No, and I'll tell you why. First, we have Stephen Peterman at RG. Second, Gos has problems in all aspects of the game, whether it be run blocking or pass blocking. Speed rushers don't give him as much trouble as strong bull rushers, in my observations. Too many times I've seen a guy that he outweighs by 30 pounds push him backwards like he's a shopping cart full of groceries. Imagine how bad he'd be against a DT who weighs as much or more than him and is better at gaining leverage. Even Jim Schwartz said in an interview earlier this year that Cherilus is a pure tackle, and doesn't really have the qualities of an NFL guard.

Gos has been given ample opportunity to win a starting job. Last season Jansen performed better than him. Gos makes mental mistakes and at times doesn't seem to care. He has to lose his starting status to get refocused, and that only lasts a game or two at most. I can't see paying this guy the money they are to be a "trial" player at guard. Cut him now while we don't have to worry about SB acceleration.

Honestly, I'd put him out there as trade bait and see if anyone bites. If some team offered a third rounder, I'd take it. I could live with Jansen being the interim starter until we find someone better/healthier than him. I'd even consider signing Orlando Pace and moving him over to RT.


March 17th, 2010, 3:45 pm
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