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m2karateman wrote:
The Lions can't keep just throwing cheap FAs at the corner spots and think it will work. It didn't work in 2008 or 2009. The Lions must get a young CB to develop, with the possibility of that guy starting this season. Houston might pan out as a #2 guy. Neither Jones nor Wade will be good as starters. Jones has been out of the game too long, and Wade has never reached that plateau. The Lions need someone for the corner spot in the second or third round. That draft didn't even come close to meeting our most pressing need.


You can only make so many upgrades. Its not that they are ignoring it they obviously felt they had a better opportunity to upgrade elsewhere (D-Line).


April 3rd, 2010, 2:11 am
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Rob Rang of cbssports.com posted a two round mock that had the Lions going Suh - Best. However, he also had Sean Witherspoon falling into the top of the second round, a few picks after we take Best.

Two Qs:

1) Is Witherspoon's draft stock really falling like this? He was a beast at the Senior Bowl.

2) If Witherspoon were to fall into the second round (and past STL, which is not a given), AND assuming some stud CB isn't available (like McCourty or Wilson), could the Lions be a taker on Witherspoon? We are ridiculously shallow at LB, too, and he looks like a very good one.

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April 3rd, 2010, 2:56 pm
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Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The Lions can't keep just throwing cheap FAs at the corner spots and think it will work. It didn't work in 2008 or 2009. The Lions must get a young CB to develop, with the possibility of that guy starting this season. Houston might pan out as a #2 guy. Neither Jones nor Wade will be good as starters. Jones has been out of the game too long, and Wade has never reached that plateau. The Lions need someone for the corner spot in the second or third round. That draft didn't even come close to meeting our most pressing need.


You can only make so many upgrades. Its not that they are ignoring it they obviously felt they had a better opportunity to upgrade elsewhere (D-Line).


I respectfully disagree.

Many football analysts (not just draft analysts), coaches and scouts have said the order of importance in regards to positions in football is:
.
1. QB
2. LT
3. CB

In 2008 and 2009, the Lions didn't take one CB in the draft, at all. The last CB they took was A.J. Davis in 2007, and he didn't even make it through training camp, despite being a fourth round pick.

Tell me the last draft that the Lions have used higher than a 3rd round pick on a CB. It was 12 years ago.....when the Lions used their pick to take the forgettable Terry Fair, and passed on Randy Moss.

There is no excuse for the continued bypassing of capable prospects in the drafts for such an important position. And now that the league has become so pass happy, getting qualified cover corners is even more difficult, yet more important.

I can understand the Lions foregoing grabbing corners in the first round because of there not being a player of value at their selections. But they have bypassed perfectly good players either later in the first round or in the second round in favor of questionable players. I realize this covers the Millen regime, but now they have a chance to rectify that mistake.

Last year the Lions had opportunities to take CBs in the first, second or third rounds that could have helped this team. Was getting a TE in the first round a necessity? I don't believe so. I like Pettigrew, and he did represent the best value on the board. But somewhere along the line you have to consider the overwhelming needs at a position as important as the corner spot.

Continued overlooking of the corner spot in the draft is going to keep this team in the basement of the NFL in regards to pass defense. They aren't developing any good cover corners. And getting a good cover corner in free agency either doesn't happen, or costs a tremendous amount of money.


April 3rd, 2010, 3:27 pm
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blueblood1 wrote:
Rob Rang of cbssports.com posted a two round mock that had the Lions going Suh - Best. However, he also had Sean Witherspoon falling into the top of the second round, a few picks after we take Best.

Two Qs:

1) Is Witherspoon's draft stock really falling like this? He was a beast at the Senior Bowl.

2) If Witherspoon were to fall into the second round (and past STL, which is not a given), AND assuming some stud CB isn't available (like McCourty or Wilson), could the Lions be a taker on Witherspoon? We are ridiculously shallow at LB, too, and he looks like a very good one.


From what I've heard, some coaches/scouts were turned off by Weatherspoon during the Combines because he seemed to be constantly demanding attention. Either through his outfit (that white body suit) or his mouth constantly going, some folks were turned off by that.

Personally, I think the guy is a first round talent and any team that lowers him on their board because of his being something of a loud mouth is being pretty stupid. Can the guy play football? Yes. And he can play either inside or outside. He can play in either a 3-4 or 4-3, and can play decently in coverage. Versatility like that from the linebacker spot is rare. Getting someone who can play like that AND be an on field general because of his football IQ equates to a first round talent, in my mind.


April 3rd, 2010, 3:35 pm
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Quote:
Many football analysts (not just draft analysts), coaches and scouts have said the order of importance in regards to positions in football is:
.
1. QB
2. LT
3. CB


I think most people "in the know" would rank DE/Outside Rush LB as being more important than CB.

I also think that a strong pass rush can hide a weak secondary. Who were the Giants starting corners when they won the SB in 2007 against a very aggressive, pass happy NE team?

Not saying CB are not important (especially with the NFL becoming more and more of a passing league) they just aren't top 3.

EDIT: My (personal) order of importance would be:

QB
LT
DE/ORLB
FS
CB
WR


April 3rd, 2010, 6:08 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The Lions can't keep just throwing cheap FAs at the corner spots and think it will work. It didn't work in 2008 or 2009. The Lions must get a young CB to develop, with the possibility of that guy starting this season. Houston might pan out as a #2 guy. Neither Jones nor Wade will be good as starters. Jones has been out of the game too long, and Wade has never reached that plateau. The Lions need someone for the corner spot in the second or third round. That draft didn't even come close to meeting our most pressing need.


You can only make so many upgrades. Its not that they are ignoring it they obviously felt they had a better opportunity to upgrade elsewhere (D-Line).


I respectfully disagree.



I don't see what there is to disagree about. They only have so many draft picks, can only spend a certain amount of money on FA's, and only so many people they can bring in. Maybe there wasn't any worthwhile CB's available at the Pettigrew pick (there wasn't). Or maybe they felt that getting Dunta would have kept them from getting KVB and NB.

Not every hole has been filled, sadly the secondary is in the worst situation right now. But there isn't a whole lot to disagree with, we are one season from 0-16.


April 3rd, 2010, 7:49 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
blueblood1 wrote:
Rob Rang of cbssports.com posted a two round mock that had the Lions going Suh - Best. However, he also had Sean Witherspoon falling into the top of the second round, a few picks after we take Best.

Two Qs:

1) Is Witherspoon's draft stock really falling like this? He was a beast at the Senior Bowl.

2) If Witherspoon were to fall into the second round (and past STL, which is not a given), AND assuming some stud CB isn't available (like McCourty or Wilson), could the Lions be a taker on Witherspoon? We are ridiculously shallow at LB, too, and he looks like a very good one.


From what I've heard, some coaches/scouts were turned off by Weatherspoon during the Combines because he seemed to be constantly demanding attention. Either through his outfit (that white body suit) or his mouth constantly going, some folks were turned off by that.

Personally, I think the guy is a first round talent and any team that lowers him on their board because of his being something of a loud mouth is being pretty stupid. Can the guy play football? Yes. And he can play either inside or outside. He can play in either a 3-4 or 4-3, and can play decently in coverage. Versatility like that from the linebacker spot is rare. Getting someone who can play like that AND be an on field general because of his football IQ equates to a first round talent, in my mind.



I agree with your assessment of Spoon, IMO he's 1st round talent, I'd be amazed if he was still there at 34, but last year the LB's slipped. Never know.


April 3rd, 2010, 8:43 pm
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Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The Lions can't keep just throwing cheap FAs at the corner spots and think it will work. It didn't work in 2008 or 2009. The Lions must get a young CB to develop, with the possibility of that guy starting this season. Houston might pan out as a #2 guy. Neither Jones nor Wade will be good as starters. Jones has been out of the game too long, and Wade has never reached that plateau. The Lions need someone for the corner spot in the second or third round. That draft didn't even come close to meeting our most pressing need.


You can only make so many upgrades. Its not that they are ignoring it they obviously felt they had a better opportunity to upgrade elsewhere (D-Line).


I respectfully disagree.



I don't see what there is to disagree about. They only have so many draft picks, can only spend a certain amount of money on FA's, and only so many people they can bring in. Maybe there wasn't any worthwhile CB's available at the Pettigrew pick (there wasn't). Or maybe they felt that getting Dunta would have kept them from getting KVB and NB.

Not every hole has been filled, sadly the secondary is in the worst situation right now. But there isn't a whole lot to disagree with, we are one season from 0-16.


I disagree that they aren't ignoring it. 12 years without a pick at the position in the first two rounds?

Let me do a rundown for you of the picks taken in the first two rounds since 1998:

4 WR
4 OLB
3 OT
3 DT
3 S
3 QB
2 DE
2 MLB
1 RB
1 OC
1 TE

In 27 picks since that time, the only other position that wasn't selected in the first two rounds by the Lions has been offensive guard.

So 0 for 27 isn't ignoring? Just what would you call it then?

Vontae Davis was worth the 20th overall pick last season. At one time he was considered a top ten possibility, but his personality turned teams off. There were other times when they had chances, not just in the first round but the second round as well.

I realize that there are only so many good players. I realize that not all players work out. But you can't sit there and tell me that over a 12 year span, and in 27 picks, there was not one worthwhile CB on the board at those selections.

I realize the current FO and coaching staff isn't responsible. But the idea that they could forego picking a CB in this draft would make them no better than the folks running this program the previous 11 years. This team needs to pick and develop a CB in this draft.


April 3rd, 2010, 9:03 pm
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Blueskies wrote:
Quote:
Many football analysts (not just draft analysts), coaches and scouts have said the order of importance in regards to positions in football is:
.
1. QB
2. LT
3. CB


I think most people "in the know" would rank DE/Outside Rush LB as being more important than CB.


It depends on who you talk to. Remember Jimmy Johnson? His rankings are exactly what I show above. I'd say he was a pretty good evaluator when it came to things like that. John Gruden has said the same thing.

Blueskies wrote:
I also think that a strong pass rush can hide a weak secondary. Who were the Giants starting corners when they won the SB in 2007 against a very aggressive, pass happy NE team?


Teams can neutralize a strong rushing team with quick passes. It's how the Lions rush was neutralized last season. Hopefully getting some CBs with better man coverage skills will help this season. But it must go hand in hand. The Lions have been bad for well over a decade against the pass. In that time they've had decent pass rushing ability. But the coverage has been poor, and it's kept them at mediocre level or below as a team.

The Giants didn't win a SB because of their pass rush. They won a SB because of a miraculous catch.


April 3rd, 2010, 9:09 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Topweasel wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
The Lions can't keep just throwing cheap FAs at the corner spots and think it will work. It didn't work in 2008 or 2009. The Lions must get a young CB to develop, with the possibility of that guy starting this season. Houston might pan out as a #2 guy. Neither Jones nor Wade will be good as starters. Jones has been out of the game too long, and Wade has never reached that plateau. The Lions need someone for the corner spot in the second or third round. That draft didn't even come close to meeting our most pressing need.


You can only make so many upgrades. Its not that they are ignoring it they obviously felt they had a better opportunity to upgrade elsewhere (D-Line).


I respectfully disagree.



I don't see what there is to disagree about. They only have so many draft picks, can only spend a certain amount of money on FA's, and only so many people they can bring in. Maybe there wasn't any worthwhile CB's available at the Pettigrew pick (there wasn't). Or maybe they felt that getting Dunta would have kept them from getting KVB and NB.

Not every hole has been filled, sadly the secondary is in the worst situation right now. But there isn't a whole lot to disagree with, we are one season from 0-16.


I disagree that they aren't ignoring it. 12 years without a pick at the position in the first two rounds?

Let me do a rundown for you of the picks taken in the first two rounds since 1998:

4 WR
4 OLB
3 OT
3 DT
3 S
3 QB
2 DE
2 MLB
1 RB
1 OC
1 TE

In 27 picks since that time, the only other position that wasn't selected in the first two rounds by the Lions has been offensive guard.

So 0 for 27 isn't ignoring? Just what would you call it then?

Vontae Davis was worth the 20th overall pick last season. At one time he was considered a top ten possibility, but his personality turned teams off. There were other times when they had chances, not just in the first round but the second round as well.

I realize that there are only so many good players. I realize that not all players work out. But you can't sit there and tell me that over a 12 year span, and in 27 picks, there was not one worthwhile CB on the board at those selections.

I realize the current FO and coaching staff isn't responsible. But the idea that they could forego picking a CB in this draft would make them no better than the folks running this program the previous 11 years. This team needs to pick and develop a CB in this draft.


oh now I understand where the disconnect comes from.

Millen!=Mayhew.


April 3rd, 2010, 11:11 pm
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Topweasel wrote:
oh now I understand where the disconnect comes from.

Millen!=Mayhew.


He's had one good draft.....the draft that Millen had in his first year, where he got Backus, Raiola and Rogers was considered to be stellar just a year later.

Is Mayhew better than Millen? So far. Will he be better than Millen if he continues to ignore such an important position of dire need? Not by much.

Right now, it is all speculation. But if the Lions come out of this draft without a truly promising corner to either start or develop, my opinion of both Mayhew and Schwartz will be much lower than it is right now. There is a pretty decent crop of CBs that will be available into our 3rd or possibly 4th round pick that, even if they don't start immediately, would be good developmental players. Right now the Lions have ZERO developmental prospects at corner. That's horrible.


April 3rd, 2010, 11:53 pm
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Quote:
The Giants didn't win a SB because of their pass rush. They won a SB because of a miraculous catch.


...no.

The Patriots averaged nearly 37 points a game that season, most of them coming from passing touchdowns. Yet, in the super bowl they were held to a measly 14 points primarily because Brady was under constant pressure including being sacked 5 times.

While Manning's pass ultimately sealed the game for the Giants, it wouldn't have even been a close match if it wasn't for the Giants defensive line.

As for Gruden and JJ, they're entitled to their opinions, obviously, but most of the NFL disagrees.

If you look at the last 10 drafts, seven defensive ends/ORLB have been picked in the top five. While only two CBs have been taken.


April 4th, 2010, 4:10 am
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m2karateman wrote:
Topweasel wrote:
oh now I understand where the disconnect comes from.

Millen!=Mayhew.


He's had one good draft.....the draft that Millen had in his first year, where he got Backus, Raiola and Rogers was considered to be stellar just a year later.

Is Mayhew better than Millen? So far. Will he be better than Millen if he continues to ignore such an important position of dire need? Not by much.

Right now, it is all speculation. But if the Lions come out of this draft without a truly promising corner to either start or develop, my opinion of both Mayhew and Schwartz will be much lower than it is right now. There is a pretty decent crop of CBs that will be available into our 3rd or possibly 4th round pick that, even if they don't start immediately, would be good developmental players. Right now the Lions have ZERO developmental prospects at corner. That's horrible.

Think rational you are using are calling the Lions out for having not drafted a CB in the first two rounds but then point out that developmental ones should be available in the 3rd or 4th.

As for not having developmental CB's, I personally remember us grabbing nearly a dozen CB's off of waivers last year. Chance is they probably just suck. Lets watch how this draft works its way out before berating them about not yet grabbing one particular position you desire as high as you would like.


April 4th, 2010, 7:40 am
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Quote:
He's had one good draft.....the draft that Millen had in his first year, where he got Backus, Raiola and Rogers was considered to be stellar just a year later.


Millen's first draft was conducted by Bill Tobin who he hired as director of player personal when he first started. After Millen's second draft Tobin was fired/quit for disagreeing with Millen.

So if you want to say Millen's first draft was decent then you have to give Bill Tobin credit for that. Rest of Millen's drafts sucked because Millen was in charge and we all know he did his job here half-assed.

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April 4th, 2010, 10:37 am
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Blueskies wrote:
As for Gruden and JJ, they're entitled to their opinions, obviously, but most of the NFL disagrees.

If you look at the last 10 drafts, seven defensive ends/ORLB have been picked in the top five. While only two CBs have been taken.


Most of the NFL disagrees? Wanna give me some quotes or some information in that regard? Beyond what you show.

Judging by your comparison, that means that a DT is more important than a CB, since DTs were taken three times within the first five picks in the past decade. But by that token, it would be a MISTAKE for the Lions to select either Ndamukong Suh or Gerald McCoy, since that position obviously isn't that important. As a result, perhaps they should take Derrick Morgan or JPP, using your comparison given.

I am not saying that the pass rush doesn't help. I am saying that it can be accounted for and countered if you have sh!tty coverage, which is what was being done to the Lions last year. You can't rush a QB effectively when they are taking three and five step drops, slinging the ball as soon as they set their foot to a receiver who is already open and has a yard or two of separation because the corners are playing 7-10 yards off, because they suck. Then those corners miss the tackle, and it's off to the races.

So, by all means, let's use all our draft picks to get defensive linemen. Let's trade away our picks to get even more pass rushers. And let's continue to pick up garbage off other teams rosters to fill our secondary. Our pass defense will continue to suck in a major way, and at that point I want you to remember this conversation.........all of you. Defensive ends and tackles play as a unit. A cornerback is on an island, hence there is little to no room for making mistakes. That is why the position is considered more important by some......and I happen to agree.


April 4th, 2010, 12:51 pm
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