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 Cornerbacks 
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
first off as for me being a real scout you are correct .anyone can say this and i forget that this is not the lionsfanatics board where the posters know me and what i do.and as for others opinion i respect everyone's opinion.i have just been trying to get people to take a real hard look at prince to see what he really is an average corner with alot of hype and to not be disappointed when or if detroit passes on him.if you disagree with me thats ok most people disagreed with me when i gave sam shields a third round grade.and if you think this is arguing you should see are meetings.


April 14th, 2011, 8:59 am
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
allenslions wrote:
i edited my post.i do apologize


I understand the difficulties of being on the road and away from home. It's not like you've called anyone names, and told people they had no idea what they are talking about. So in that regard, you've been more than respectful.

We have a good group of regular posters on here, and some of them are pretty knowledgeable about football and many other things. I don't want our littany of responses and some minor name calling to discourage you from posting here, as I believe you have some good points to make. I don't agree with everything you have said, but I appreciate that you explain things through.

I for one can't imagine Jimmy Smith getting picked ahead of Prince Amukamara, but then again I would have NEVER imagined Tyson Alualu being a top ten pick last year.....so it shows what I know.

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April 14th, 2011, 9:20 am
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
as a scout i have no more idea where a player gets drafted then anyone else except the eight teams that use our service will request more info on certain players they have targeted.but as a detroit fan i hope that they can trade down from 13 as i would much rather they take dowling in the second round then take the risk of smith or prince.you may think what risk would we be taking with prince since everyone in the free world thinks he is a sure thing i can assure you unless he lands in a zone heavy scheme i give him about a 75% chance at busting.take that for what it is my opinion but it,s a pretty educated opinion.


April 14th, 2011, 5:28 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
A couple of articles that are in line with bucking the trend by dropping prince's stock and raising Williams have been put out by ESPN. They are insider restricted, so if you don't have access enjoy.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6353475
KC Joyner wrote:
Amukamara's stock far too high
The cornerback is worse against the best than Brandon Harris and Jimmy Smith

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Joyner By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
Archive

Prince AmukamaraReese Strickland/US PresswirePrince Amukamara did not fare well against elite competition last season.

One of the humorously compelling subplots of the classic football movie "North Dallas Forty" is the quarterback competition between Seth Maxwell (Mac Davis) and Art Hartman (Marshall Colt).

Hartman is big, strong, fast, young and lives a squeaky clean lifestyle, while Maxwell has a long history of being a party animal.

It doesn't turn out well for Hartman in the end because, in spite of the benefit the aforementioned traits give him, the simple fact of the matter is that Maxwell is better suited to adapt and excel versus competition at the highest level. Physical characteristics and good living are all fine and well, but the bottom-line determinant in the NFL is who performs better on the field.

This lesson is one that NFL teams ought to be considering when deciding whether or not to draft Nebraska Cornhuskers cornerback Prince Amukamara in the first round.

Amukamara earned more than a few on-field and off-field honors in his career, but a game-tape/metrics analysis shows that he did not perform at an NFL-caliber level last year. In fact, his performance level placed him well behind some other cornerbacks that are considered borderline first-round choices.

Let's start with Amukamara's 2010 metrics. In the 10 games in which the Cornhuskers faced FBS AQ competition (Kansas State, Texas, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Iowa State, Texas A&M, Colorado, Oklahoma and two games against Washington), he posted these metric totals:

Route Depth Att Comp Yds TD Int Pen Pen Yds YPA
Short (up to 10 yards downfield) 22 11 84 1 0 0 0 3.8
Medium (11-19 yards) 6 3 52 0 0 1 14 9.4
Deep (20-29 yards) 5 0 0 0 0 2 25 3.6
Bomb (30+ yards) 4 3 161 2 0 2 30 31.8
Total (all route depths) 37 17 297 3 0 5 69 8.7
Vertical (11+ yards) 15 6 213 2 0 5 69 14.1
Stretch vertical (20+ yards) 9 3 161 2 0 4 55 16.6

For perspective, consider that an 8.7 total YPA ranked Cleveland Browns cornerback Sheldon Brown tied for 70th out of 98 qualifying cornerbacks in that metric last year. It is far from an elite mark and Amukamara posted the same mark against collegiate-level competition.

But it wasn't just in total YPA where Amukamara came up short. Giving up 11 completions/defensive penalties in 20 vertical pass attempts equates to a 45 percent success rate, a number that would have ranked 82nd in that category at the pro level last season. The 14.1 vertical YPA and 16.6 stretch vertical YPA would also have placed him in the bottom quarter of the league in those metrics.

There are those who would argue that Amukamara's numbers were skewed by his performance against Oklahoma State star wideout Justin Blackmon. While that single contest did spike Amukamara's totals (Blackmon went 3-for-6 for 144 total reception/penalty yards and a touchdown), even if you subtract that game, he still gave up a nearly 50 percent completion rate on all of the other passes.

And consider that there are receivers of Blackmon's caliber all over the NFL. Slowing down elite pass catchers is exactly why teams draft cornerbacks in the first round, and an inability to do that should raise huge red flags on a first-round corner's draft status.

One more reason to consider passing on Amukamara is the metric totals posted by Colorado cornerback Jimmy Smith and Miami Hurricanes cornerback Brandon Harris.

In an eight-game sample (Colorado State, California, Hawaii, Georgia, Missouri, Baylor, Oklahoma, Nebraska) Smith was targeted 21 times and gave up only eight completions for 73 yards, or a 3.5 YPA. He also had a 3.6 vertical YPA on 11 passes and a 2.3 stretch vertical YPA on seven passes. (The Georgia game included two targets in which Smith was covering consensus No. 1 wide receiver A.J. Green, both of which fell incomplete.)

Harris fared just as well in an 11-game sample (Ohio State, Pitt, Clemson, Florida State , North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame, South Florida).

He gave up only nine completions/defensive penalties in 36 pass attempts (75 percent success rate) and allowed only 133 yards on those plays (3.7 YPA). Harris was just as dominant on vertical passes (3.8 YPA on 21 passes) and stretch vertical throws (4.1 YPA on 12 attempts).

Smith might be considered for higher ranking on most draft boards except that he has highly publicized character issues. In Harris' case, his off-field track record would make any PR department proud, but he isn't quite as big (5-foot-9, 191 pounds) as Amukamara (6-0, 213).

The common wisdom says those reasons are enough to place Amukamara above Smith and Harris, but the Art Hartman experience shows that being bigger/stronger/faster and having good conduct medals alone won't get it done. The bottom line is that Smith and Harris both played better than Amukamara against top-level competition in college. That is a strong indicator they will perform better at the pro level and is why they should both be picked ahead of Amukamara on draft day.

KC Joyner, aka the Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. He also can be found on Twitter @kcjoynertfs and at his website. He is the author of "Blindsided: Why the Left Tackle is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts."


http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/blog?name=nfl_draft&id=6361077
Kevin Weidl wrote:
Re-examining Jimmy Smith's character
April, 15, 2011
Apr 15
11:29
AM ET

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By Kevin Weidl

As the draft process continues to unfold and draft day approaches, more information is surfacing regarding the character concerns surrounding Colorado CB Jimmy Smith, information that has Smith gaining some momentum.

I talked to a reliable source close to the CU program earlier this week, and what I took away from the conversation is that Smith's issues early in his career were due mostly to immaturity and falling in with the wrong crowd. Smith has matured in recent years and has indicated to NFL teams that he is looking forward to leaving that crowd behind and starting fresh in a new city.

[+] EnlargeJimmy Smith
Aaron M. Sprecher/Getty ImagesJimmy Smith is answering character questions and could end up back in the first round.

Scouts I've talked to recently have also said that the more they dig, the more comfortable they are getting with Smith's off-field character and any potential risk involved in drafting him. And let's be clear that the character issues are the only thing holding him back at this point.

There is no questioning Smith's overall physical talent. He has an impressive frame (6-foot-2¼, 211 pounds) and shows great athleticism, balance and fluidity for his size. He also has good instincts and an ability to turn and run with receivers downfield, displaying good closing burst/recovery speed to make up ground when the ball is in the air.

Given his size, skill set and ability to re-route receivers at the line of scrimmage, Smith has everything necessary to be an excellent press corner in the NFL. Want some proof? Study the tape of Colorado's 2010 win over Georgia.

Bulldogs WR A.J. Green -- currently the No. 4 player on our board -- returned from a four-game suspension against the Buffaloes, who initially elected to cover Green with CB Jalil Brown and had little success. Green caught seven passes for 119 yards and two scores against Brown, including a ridiculous one-handed grab in the end zone early in the second quarter.

Colorado put Smith on Green in the middle of the third quarter, though, and things changed. Green did not catch a pass the rest of the way against Smith, whose size and strength gave Green problems.

Smith clearly has the tools to be a top-10 pick -- some feel his skills are equal to or better than those of Nebraska's Prince Amukamara -- but the red flags surrounding his character dropped him all the way to the second round at one point.

As it stands, though, Smith is moving back into the first round and I won't be surprised if he gains enough traction to move into the mid-teens or early 20s before all is said and done.

Down year for safeties
The 2011 safety class looks shaky when compared with the bumper crop we saw at the position in 2010.

Five safeties were drafted in the top 50 last year, including Eric Berry (No. 5, Kansas City) and Earl Thomas (No. 14, Seattle) in the top half of the first round. The group also included Nate Allen (No. 37, Philadelphia), T.J. Ward (No. 38, Cleveland) and Taylor Mays (No. 49, San Francisco).

We'll be lucky to see one safety in the top 50 this year. Rahim Moore carries a mid-second-round grade thanks to good instincts, range in zone coverage and ball skills, but he is not as good in man coverage and will likely struggle near the box in the NFL and that will cause some teams to shy away.

Behind Moore are several prospects with limitations. Jaiquawn Jarrett struggles in coverage, Ahmad Black is a good tackler and playmaker but lacks size and speed, and Joe Lefeged and Quinton Carter both show some tightness and are limited at times in coverage. All grade out on the fringe of Day 2 as a result.

We're hearing teams are working Texas CB Aaron Williams out as a free safety as well, and he could very well make that move much like former Ohio State CB Malcolm Jenkins did with the New Orleans Saints. However, we grade Williams as a corner at this point and that's where he'll stay on our board.

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April 15th, 2011, 6:26 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
data over hype i love it.i will repeat this prince has one shot at a decent career and thats as a zone corner.
1rd-smith-shutdown corner if he gets out of hand feed him to suh and kvb
2rd-carter-when healthy is a first round talent
3rd-moffitt-can take over center from riolia
4rd-harvey-can play any lber position.amazing size and speed combo
5rd-fannin-5.11 230 and runs a legit 4.35.avg 5.7 and 6.4 ypc his jr an sr season as 3rd back


April 15th, 2011, 7:07 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
allenslions wrote:
data over hype i love it.i will repeat this prince has one shot at a decent career and thats as a zone corner.
1rd-smith-shutdown corner if he gets out of hand feed him to suh and kvb
2rd-carter-when healthy is a first round talent
3rd-moffitt-can take over center from riolia
4rd-harvey-can play any lber position.amazing size and speed combo
5rd-fannin-5.11 230 and runs a legit 4.35.avg 5.7 and 6.4 ypc his jr an sr season as 3rd back



I haven't seen this yet, but does Blesto scout for the Lions by chance? Are they seeing the info that you guys are putting out there? I'm intrigued by the info you are presenting and wondering how close the Lions board looks compared to what you are saying here? I'm not sure how the whole scouting process works, but find some of the insight very interesting.

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April 15th, 2011, 9:32 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
TNLionsFanatic wrote:
allenslions wrote:
data over hype i love it.i will repeat this prince has one shot at a decent career and thats as a zone corner.
1rd-smith-shutdown corner if he gets out of hand feed him to suh and kvb
2rd-carter-when healthy is a first round talent
3rd-moffitt-can take over center from riolia
4rd-harvey-can play any lber position.amazing size and speed combo
5rd-fannin-5.11 230 and runs a legit 4.35.avg 5.7 and 6.4 ypc his jr an sr season as 3rd back



I haven't seen this yet, but does Blesto scout for the Lions by chance? Are they seeing the info that you guys are putting out there? I'm intrigued by the info you are presenting and wondering how close the Lions board looks compared to what you are saying here? I'm not sure how the whole scouting process works, but find some of the insight very interesting.



I agree and am curious myself.

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April 15th, 2011, 9:57 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
yes detroit is one of the eight teams that use our service.our reports go to directly to dennis gentry.he is the senior blesto scout assigned to the team.he will go over all the reports then give them to the lions coaching staff.then the coaching staff and there in house scouts will compare there grades with ours and put there board together.so yes there very aware of our thoughts on prince and the other corners.thats one of the problems millen had he would completely disregard grades for a player he liked.mayhew does not do this.


April 15th, 2011, 10:13 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
You're pretty open with what is usually guarded information, which I'm thankful for. Isn't there any ramifications divulging stuff?

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April 15th, 2011, 10:44 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
no i keep it very general.but yes there can be if i get to specific with private team info.and its funny because one poster on here made a comment about being vague


April 16th, 2011, 12:08 am
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
Would like to know the blesto ratings on LB's in this draft. Who is rated where and why.


April 16th, 2011, 8:13 am
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
here is a quick breakdown of the top 5 inside and 5 outside linebackers.I,ll start with the inside
1-quan sturdivant-in a weak class is the safest pick solid all around linebacker
2-martez wilson-i hate putting him this high.can look great at times and completely lost at others
3-mario harvey-i would have him number one if he had played better competition
4-nate irving-nice combine solid in all area's of his game
5-colin MCcarthy-ranked much lower till all-star games is a boom or bust type
what an ugly list and if i were a gm the only guys i would touch would be quan or harvey
now for the outside
1-von miller-a great player and worthy of a top 10 pick
2-bruce carter-even with the injury a better player then anyone else on this list
3-mason foster-nice instincts but wish he was a little faster
4-lawrence wilson-underrated player who should be a nice pro
5-akeem ayers-only reason he,s on my list is because i know someone running a 3-4 is gonna try and turn him into an outside passrusher and draft him much higher then he should be.


April 16th, 2011, 11:36 am
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=mortensen_chris&id=6382356

Found this story on a late round/undrafted CB prospect. Sounds like he's got a lot of talent, but was in a bad situation.


April 19th, 2011, 12:12 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
m2karateman wrote:
I for one can't imagine Jimmy Smith getting picked ahead of Prince Amukamara, but then again I would have NEVER imagined Tyson Alualu being a top ten pick last year.....so it shows what I know.


Yeah, and how'd he do for Jax last year? Not like a top 10 pick should.

There's always some clown who goes in the top 10 like Troy Williamson, Heyward-Bey, Mike Williams, etc.

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April 19th, 2011, 2:01 pm
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Post Re: Cornerbacks
allenslions wrote:
here is a quick breakdown of the top 5 inside and 5 outside linebackers.I,ll start with the inside
1-quan sturdivant-in a weak class is the safest pick solid all around linebacker
2-martez wilson-i hate putting him this high.can look great at times and completely lost at others
3-mario harvey-i would have him number one if he had played better competition
4-nate irving-nice combine solid in all area's of his game
5-colin MCcarthy-ranked much lower till all-star games is a boom or bust type
what an ugly list and if i were a gm the only guys i would touch would be quan or harvey
now for the outside
1-von miller-a great player and worthy of a top 10 pick
2-bruce carter-even with the injury a better player then anyone else on this list
3-mason foster-nice instincts but wish he was a little faster
4-lawrence wilson-underrated player who should be a nice pro
5-akeem ayers-only reason he,s on my list is because i know someone running a 3-4 is gonna try and turn him into an outside passrusher and draft him much higher then he should be.


I'm surprised we actually agree on Ayers - extremely overrated. I also like Harvey.

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April 19th, 2011, 2:04 pm
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