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 Astronomy/Scientific Question 
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Post Astronomy/Scientific Question
I just heard today from an organization that is known share some information on Christian Radio stations, and it led me to a question or two.

The Big Bang Theory: If I understand it correctly, the theory states that the "big bang" created matter from the void around it, and this is how we got our solar systems and planets. Now I DID NOT RESEARCH the BBT, but I am asking these questions:

Could the BBT happen again? If not, why not?

Can a void that contains no matter, that is suddenly exploded create matter and how?

If this were true, could we take air in a contained environment and exploded it, and then create "dirt." Because if I understand the thinking of the BBT theorist, that is essentially what they are saying happened right? If I understood this correctly, then the evidence doesn't add up.

This leads me to another question following this thought. For those with military experience, or those who've seen explosions. Ground Zero is the point of the explosion, everything is blown away from said point and continues on a dedicated trajectory, at the same speed. The only thing that slows larger particles down compared to smaller, is the friction of our environment. But in a pure void like space, where AIR is not an issue, and there is nothing to interfere with the flight path, how can all of these things explode from one point, collide, create, and stop moving, let alone create a whole new trajectory such as orbits of planets that would be flying in one direction, while flying away from Ground Zero in another direction.

Do any of my questions make sense? I realize that I'm not a scientist, but sometimes it just seems like too many theories, and people are basing careers, and eternal destinations on untrue info.

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June 8th, 2011, 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
(1) It is clearly not a simple as you stated it if it were true
(2) If it is true, we will have no way of knowing what it was made of or how it happened as we cannot reproduce it... that is unless we eventually find and control anti-matter.

You can never prove or disprove WHY or WHO though... it is a question with no evidence.

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June 8th, 2011, 9:55 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Go get a copy of "A Brief History of Time" and read it. It is literally about exactly what you are talking about, is written in a straightforward manner (I read it when I was 14 years old) and is less than 200 pages IIRC.


June 8th, 2011, 10:29 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Oh man I am kicking myself rigth now. I watched a show on PBS last winter that was spectacular.It put the latest theories about the birth of universes and put em all on some computer graffics that looks amazing in HD. I keep thinking the show was called something Like "our viloent universe" or somthing like that. Either which way it went on to explain how the big bang was more of a birth of a sun. the planets take much much longer to form after that.

But in a nutshell, yes, the big bang can (and has) happen again and again throughout the vastness of space.

and as far as matter and voids.......Im really trying hard to remember the details but im pretty sure there were ties in with black holes dying to creat the big bang. but to be on the level my memory of that part of the show was sketchy. please someone have a clue what Im talking about and help me remember the name of the show..it answers these questions!

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June 9th, 2011, 12:27 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
There is a reason for my asking the question, because I've heard a lot from Atheist friends of mine outside of this chatroom who lay claim to stellar proof that their is no God. They use some Limey, NPR sounding, monotone spokesperson from youtube as their basis of proof. But all he has done is use some really impressive words, create a few theories, and baffle people with BS. But because of his use of the impressive words, well it's just got to be truth.

The difficulty that I have with this is that these same Atheist friends of mine are willing to swallow this nonsense, hook, line, and sinker, even thought they themselves have not PHYSICALLY done the research, or investigated the theories, but yet they are willing to base their entire belief system on it, because it fits their worldview.

On the other hand, other documentation has been provided, tested, proven, and mass produced, but yet that is refuted, or stated as lies because, it was "written by 40 differnt men, over 1500 years, from 3 different continents." Yes I'm talking about the Bible. My friends are willing to accept the "research" or words of one man, but not willing to consider that which is proven as a comparison. And I believe it is because it flies in the face of their world view.

I'm not discrediting the beliefs as much as I'm trying to understand why one is accepted as truth based upon someone else's work/research and so on, yet the other is discarded, although it is the same thing.

The basis for the question stated that the "first law of thermo dynamics" proved that matter could not be generated from an explosion. For example: taking gaseous mateirals in the right mixes and exploding them supposedly creates matter. To RG Joe's comment about it (BBT) continues to happen, or did continue to happen, I question that, because after the initial BBT, then you no longer have a "perfectly void" environment. So now it's compromised with "matter" according to the popular belief, so now it's changed from the original explosion that resulted from "supposed gaseous build up and explosion that resulted from it." And where would the gas come from in a void? Space contains particles, dusts, ice, and so on, but that's now, and it is still relatively a void, but in a pure void environment there is NOTHING to work with.
From what I understood vaguely, the gathering of elements around it that caused the "bbt" could not create physical elements, and therefore that proved BBT to be false. I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH, or understand it enough to make that claim.

The Black Hole theory I have heard kicked around, and there is actually some evidence that refutes that as well. In fact, from the VERY LIMITED astronomy that I've been able to witness with my eyes, shows that the "shield" area of Orion appears to be the genesis point, but it is almost as if that is a window into several other areas or dimensions that couldn't be explained, including several black holes and super black holes.

I'm trying to get a handle on the thought process so I know how to intelligently discuss faith and relationship, with those who base their beliefs on the created and not the creator. If you are a member here and fall into one of these categories, this is an attempt to learn and discuss and I will not pm you to start beating you with a Bible. That's assualt by the way. I just really want to understand the thought process so that I can be better equipped to answer questions with my atheist friends.

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Last edited by WarEr4Christ on June 9th, 2011, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.



June 9th, 2011, 10:39 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I just find it amazing that everyone always looks at science and religion as opposite sides of the spectrum and that they have to cancel each other out. They actually compliment each other well. With a needle you can do this. With thread you can do that. Together they do something entirely different that is a reflection of both.


June 9th, 2011, 10:42 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
nj I agree, because it is with science you can prove intelligent design, just due to the intracacies of humanity and the differences between all other life.

Many people like to use the evolution theory, which could actually have some merit if you had the middle links. But we don't, nor is their evidence of it. If you have fish in the sea, which crawled onto the shore, then 1. what fish 2. where are the shore crawling fish 3. where are the next step in that chain, and so on.

In actuality, we're being asked to believe that all of this happened at one time, so step one fish crawled out, and so on, and that all life happened or grew at the same rate. Although this has been proven wrong already, because if all life grew at the same rate, now why do dogs for example have a 7 to 1 year ratio in life years? The life year ratio varies by species, but yet it is different for each one, and yet all the steps were supposed to happen at the same time.

However, returning to humanity, their is a DNA machine within each one of us, that designs and replicates our genetic code, which then builds the human life from part a joining with part b. Again these are areas that I have EXTREMLY limited knowledge of, but have strong enough questions about that it stands in the face of the popular thought amongst science.

Science and Faith can work together, but IF that were to happen, then it proves that what has been written and proven would be true, and then their is an ulitmate destination for each one of us, and well we just can't have that, because I don't agree with that truth. "I want to be my own god, or there is no god, so I am not subject to him." That is why post modernism has made truth relevant to the situation or person and abandoned the common law of truth.

For example: Mathematics: 2 + 2 = 4 right? According to who? Why do I have to believe that to be true, who made that law? You are correct in that I'm personally not required to believe it, but that is the "rule of thumb" or standard for all humanity that uses mathematics. But why? Who came up with that law, and why is that truth accepted, but yet the physical proof of intelligent design is discarded because of what it prophecies?

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June 9th, 2011, 10:59 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
njroar wrote:
I just find it amazing that everyone always looks at science and religion as opposite sides of the spectrum and that they have to cancel each other out. They actually compliment each other well. With a needle you can do this. With thread you can do that. Together they do something entirely different that is a reflection of both.


I have stated many times that science discusses "HOW" and religion discusses "WHO and WHY." I've been shot down many times but I still hold true to that.

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June 9th, 2011, 11:06 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I just really want to understand the thought process so that I can be better equipped to answer questions with my atheist friends.


What is the bigger stretch, the Big Bang theory for the creation of matter, eventually planets/suns and eventually life or the thought that before anything there was the most amazing being that ever existed who created everything. In the second case, there is no real theory as to how he came into being or how he developed or who created him.

I look at the Big Bang theory as simply that, a theory and a very interesting one as that. I don't take it as the be all end all. I don't assert that there is no other possibility that will be discovered and eventually replace it as our understanding improves. When I was a kid, dinosaurs were thought of to have evolved into lizards. Made sense to me then. Now the more prevailing thought is that they evolved into birds. Doesn't make as much inherent sense, but when you really look at all the evidence it does. Science is flexible, it changes as knowledge changes.

Do you look at God as a theory? How do you explain his existence? In my mind, that is a much more difficult question to ponder than the creation of the universe.

Steensn says science discusses "HOW" and religion discusses "WHO and WHY" and that is true to some degree, but WHO isn't necessarily a part of the equation and neither is WHY unless HOW leads to those questions first. IMO, unless you answer HOW, WHO and WHY are irrelevant.

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June 9th, 2011, 11:10 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
The problem is, you can never answer HOW, so pondering WHO and WHY is something we can do now. If WHO and WHY matters, it doesn't matter HOW. If WHO and WHY don't matter, then nothing matters. The thing is though, HOW really doesn't matter in either case.

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June 9th, 2011, 11:27 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
The problem is, you can never answer HOW, so pondering WHO and WHY is something we can do now. If WHO and WHY matters, it doesn't matter HOW. If WHO and WHY don't matter, then nothing matters. The thing is though, HOW really doesn't matter in either case.


Can never answer HOW? That is certainly a defeatist attitude and one I'm glad scientist over the years have failed to take. Look at all the questions science has answered that were previously believed to be unanswerable.

I'm also surprised you think that if WHO and WHY matters, why doesn't HOW? I'm guessing then since you know who broke the rules (Pryor) and why (for money), then the how doesn't matter? Just kiddin, couldn't resist.

HOW can exist without the WHO and WHY, the reverse cannot also be claimed.

But we can still ignore all that and the HOW, WHO created God and WHY?

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June 9th, 2011, 11:51 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
The "missing link" argument is a fallacy. That's not how evolution works. Evolution derives from spontaneous genetic abnormalities that can't be predicted or put on a logical timeline.

This is the timeline skeptics want to see:

early primate----->early human----->modern human (and folks want to see all the gradual steps in between, i.e, the "missing link")

Image

There won't ever be a fossil chain that looks like because evolution doesn't happen in this manner. There is physical evidence that shows that early primates evolved into several different species of later primates and several of those species evolved into different species of early humans and those species of early humans evolved further, etc. etc. There is no "missing link" and there doesn't have to be. While this might not be the most up-to-date graphic in the world, the visual evidence of human evolution looks more like this:

Image

Pablo mentions that dinosaurs didn't evolve into lizards but rather into birds. That's not entirely true--dinosaurs evolved into birds AND lizards. It doesn't work in a straight line or any predictable pattern.

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June 9th, 2011, 11:54 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:
Can never answer HOW? That is certainly a defeatist attitude and one I'm glad scientist over the years have failed to take. Look at all the questions science has answered that were previously believed to be unanswerable.


I'll take that back. I don't THINK science can ever answer "WHO." Better?

Pablo wrote:
I'm also surprised you think that if WHO and WHY matters, why doesn't HOW? I'm guessing then since you know who broke the rules (Pryor) and why (for money), then the how doesn't matter? Just kiddin, couldn't resist.


How doesn't matter because it doesn't change our lives or effect possibilities past our lives. How has no long lasting meaning, it doesn't give purpose, etc. WHO and WHY have overlying questions taht effect us in a bigger way if there is a WHO and a WHY. It potentially effects eternity compared to a blip in time. Clearly more important.

Pablo wrote:
HOW can exist without the WHO and WHY, the reverse cannot also be claimed.

But we can still ignore all that and the HOW, WHO created God and WHY?


Only if you define WHO as needing to be created. Strawman... if WHO is beyond time and space then WHO doesn't need a creator because that paradigm didn't exist before WHO created it.

If you are going to contend the universe could exist without a WHO and WHY, the you must also contend the same can be true for WHO, WHO can exist without another WHO or WHY. Especially when the WHO has a different set of rules than the universe.

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June 9th, 2011, 12:22 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
njroar wrote:
I just find it amazing that everyone always looks at science and religion as opposite sides of the spectrum and that they have to cancel each other out. They actually compliment each other well. With a needle you can do this. With thread you can do that. Together they do something entirely different that is a reflection of both.


Bingo!

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June 9th, 2011, 12:47 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo: To try to answer your question about God always being, there are two worlds in accordance with Scripture. The Spiritual, and the Physical. Scripture goes on to say that God created angels, including Satan himself, and that their was even a war in Heaven, when sin was found within Satan. It doesn't give a timeline, because time is an issue and measuring scale of man. So this could have taken eons to go through. But then you look at Gensis 1:26-27, Let US make man in OUR image, male and female He created them. So the trinity decided to make man and he gave us something that He did not give the Angelic beings, free will. Everyone who draws a breath has the right to choose or deny the creator. Now that man has been created, time has been given us or developed to map the seasons, months, days hours and so on. Getting back to the point, the God of relationship, Father, Son, and Holy SPirit, created man for RELATIONSHIP. You ask how I can know a Spiritual being, and that is through relationship. I thought we discussed that pretty thoroughly so I won't go back to it. So I hope that helps a little.

As for the evolution issue where does disease play into that? Think about cancer, it isn't specific to a particular race, gender, or location it attacks who it attacks. Now if this is an environmental issue, meaning that the individuals environment factors into whether or not cancer attacks them, then why does it not attack all? Not to mention there has been several thousand years of humanity, so have we changed from point a to present? Are we any more developed physically? I remember hearing stories of the Greek Olympians who would do the running long jump, using two rock weights in either hand they would run and then jump, and if I recall the number right, the record was 70 feet. Now we don't come anywhere close to that, and I remember 70 because it totally blew my mind. There are many stories of great strength and abilities that may be possible now, but no one has done it in recent years. So are we trending down?

Just some thoughts

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June 9th, 2011, 1:33 pm
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