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 NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools 
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
I'm consistent. Just like the pro football teams that the players at the bottom not playing a snap have a base "minimum" salary, so would the scholarship program. If I was suggesting at all that everyone should get their "chunk" then maybe yout post makes sense... but again you are taking my data that overwhelmingly supports my minimal "request" and trying to make it support some full fledged crazy idea that neither of us agree with . Maybe it is because you can't argue against the base logic of covering the reasonable finances of the student athletes that contribute to one of the largest sports industries in the US.

You rea taking my stance on the sport AS A WHOLE and poo poing it with a sport that does make money. Stop pulling things together that don't don't go together... like Sly and women. You are taking two things that are exclusive and seperate conversations, then mixing them to attempt to create inconsistency. This is so dead simple I don't know why you go to such great lengths to agrue this nonsense and create crazy ideas that don't exist...

1) Sport provides benifit to the university financially, if yes keep it, if no, why waste the money because that means no one cares anyways.
2) If it makes money, that means it is enough to pay for the scholarships and other cost associated with it.
3) If it breaks pretty close to even, the players are probably getting what they put in back, leave it alone, good program
4) If it is grossly making more money that it takes to run, why?
5) If the student athletes are not given enough scholarship to cover all reasonable expenses for the year, make up that difference, why not, they clearly are part of the system that makes that machine run so well.
6) If the NCAA continues in this idea that players cannot prosper from their athlete status, consider other ways to give back to them if it is still extra-ordinarily off. Maybe a lifelong health care plan for their efforts... keeps it still amature.

It is a SIMPLE thought process here keeping CONTEXT the idea that the NCAA wants to STAY amature status. If you want to remove that limitation then maybe we can talk about your a and b options you fudged to make me look inconsistent. I'm giving a solution to help keep the amature status which the NCAA will always be yet still consider the athletes contribution. If you want to magically take away clear scope in this discussion to attempt and create something from nothing be my guest, but it is nonsense.

Please, let's stay in context and not dream uo crazy stuff to find something to argue about. If you want to take this argument outside of the NCAA amature status then say so, don't sneak it in under some hidden idea that I'm being inconsistent. Think wholistically and in context, not in little straw men here or there...

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regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 16th, 2011, 4:03 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
steensn wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
Ok, then exactly HOW do/did they earn it?
By choosing that particular school and its associated history, coaches, system, etc?
By having the skill to play a sport?
By perhaps coming from meager backgrounds?

It's almost as if you think/believe these schools wouldn't be able to survive without these kids.


Same way the NFL players do, they provide excitement and a skill level that draws more fan's $$$ than would previously been had without them. Could the sport survive? Sure, but it wouldn't be as profitable and swimming in cash like it is and there is no way to deny it unless someone wants to act ignorant about it.

IMO that is where you lose you argument. NFL players are Professionals and therefore compensated as such, whereas college players are Amateurs and compensated as such.

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September 16th, 2011, 4:23 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
No it doesn't because I am not advocating for pay like the NFL, you are taking an irrelevant part of my post to write off the point. Their skill level and performance creates more income for the school than what they would have with less talented players and so they HAVE earned it.

If I were arguing compensation like the NFL, your distracting post might have some merit. But since I am advocating that they have earned through their efforts, at minimum cost of living, to go to that school and live there your responce is a total distraction and way off from a logical standpoint.

Please, don't isolate 6 words in a post that are irrelevant to the point then claim that is my problem. It's nonsense.

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September 16th, 2011, 4:29 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
OK, first the sly comment was nice! :cheers:

Second, as I thought, it isn't about individual players EARNing anything - which is what you kept repeating over and over so you can understand all of our disconnect with your suggestions.

It is about a SPORT that makes money. You try to talk about top athletes making the school money, again a argument with no grounds since you aren't talking about INDIVIDUALS earning anything - it is the SPORT.

Then comes out the socialist, if the sport makes money, then lets share it with everyone who participates (aren't there countries that sly would be much more comfortable in?) I love how now you are throwing in LIFELONG health care - you neve cease to amaze.

You talk about dreaming up all this crazy stuff, but these dreams have you even stopped to notice how you have one dream and virtually EVERYONE else has the other. Then again, crazy folks always think it is eveyone else who is crazy!

You give these kids this money and where does it get them? I'll tell you, they will want more. Money doesn't solve the problem, it adds to it. Do you simply not understand this concept? Take highly paid pro athletes, give them millions of dollars, and look how many are broke shortly after hanging up the cleats. That is the real world. In your fantasy world, these kids match these additional funds to their expenses. In the real world, they rack up even more debt on top of it.

ONE of the many unintended consequences of what you propose is that these players would end up leaving school with MORE debt than they currently do. In essence, your solution will only exacerbate the problem you are trying to solve.

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September 16th, 2011, 4:40 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
steensn wrote:
No it doesn't because I am not advocating for pay like the NFL, you are taking an irrelevant part of my post to write off the point. Their skill level and performance creates more income for the school than what they would have with less talented players and so they HAVE earned it.

If I were arguing compensation like the NFL, your distracting post might have some merit. But since I am advocating that they have earned through their efforts, at minimum cost of living, to go to that school and live there your responce is a total distraction and way off from a logical standpoint.

Please, don't isolate 6 words in a post that are irrelevant to the point then claim that is my problem. It's nonsense.

I stopped reading after the bolded part because that is not at all what I was saying. Please re-read and try again.

Wags wrote:
IMO that is where you lose you argument. NFL players are Professionals and therefore compensated as such (professionals), whereas college players are Amateurs and compensated as such (amateurs).


/reading is fundamental :wink:

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September 16th, 2011, 4:44 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
TheRealWags wrote:
steensn wrote:
No it doesn't because I am not advocating for pay like the NFL, you are taking an irrelevant part of my post to write off the point. Their skill level and performance creates more income for the school than what they would have with less talented players and so they HAVE earned it.

If I were arguing compensation like the NFL, your distracting post might have some merit. But since I am advocating that they have earned through their efforts, at minimum cost of living, to go to that school and live there your responce is a total distraction and way off from a logical standpoint.

Please, don't isolate 6 words in a post that are irrelevant to the point then claim that is my problem. It's nonsense.

I stopped reading after the bolded part because that is not at all what I was saying. Please re-read and try again.

Wags wrote:
IMO that is where you lose you argument. NFL players are Professionals and therefore compensated as such (professionals), whereas college players are Amateurs and compensated as such (amateurs).


/reading is fundamental :wink:


Again... you are simply taking the fact I even mentioned the NFL and you are off target. What am I advocating... please... in context. I am advocating a slight increase in scholarship to cover the cost of living expenses at the university you are contributing to which is benefiting from your choice to go there. NOT compensation inline with your contribution. If I was advocating that I would be advocating what the data indicated for an NFL style weighting. Since I am not, I am advocating the stipend they ALREADY GET (clearly showing I'm within amateur compensation and not NFL compensation) more closely match the actual cost to go to thatt university nad contrubute on that team at the school because all student athletes getting the full scholarship in that sport would end up getting the same deal.

Please, stop ignoring what I am proposing and if you continue to act like my suggestion in not exactly in line with what they are doing already as amature athletes instead of bolding every time I say NFL and ignoring my post. Clearly you haven't been reading any of my post... not just this one.

/reading at all is fundamental...

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September 16th, 2011, 4:57 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
Pablo wrote:
OK, first the sly comment was nice! :cheers:


Had to throw that in there and lighten the mood... and it a perfect analogy. I wanted to see if you are actually even reading my post because so far it seems like you've picked and chosen so far.

Pablo wrote:
Second, as I thought, it isn't about individual players EARNing anything - which is what you kept repeating over and over so you can understand all of our disconnect with your suggestions.

It is about a SPORT that makes money. You try to talk about top athletes making the school money, again a argument with no grounds since you aren't talking about INDIVIDUALS earning anything - it is the SPORT.


I only used them as examples to make the point, It;'s easier to point to the clear extremes that everyone can see "oh yeah" unless that person decides to look into it too deep. I don't need to be all inclusive to make my point... the simple example names I through out there make it for me. Move on, stop trying to over analyse things. Do you think I have time to list out every player that counts? No, constraints dictate that I can't so please don't put up unrealistic expenctations...

You got the point, move on, don't try and pick apart something it wasn't supposed to be.

Pablo wrote:
Then comes out the socialist, if the sport makes money, then lets share it with everyone who participates (aren't there countries that sly would be much more comfortable in?) I love how now you are throwing in LIFELONG health care - you neve cease to amaze.


No, that is the consiquences of this being an AMATURE sport and not a professional sport. Again, a perfect example of ignoring the CONTEXT and creating a strawman ignoring the intent. All I did was come up with something that would benefit the WHOLE of the players who are contributing to this well oiled money making machine without picking out individual contributers and allowing it to become a pay for play scheme. The money generated is crazy... the players have a huge part in making that money flow in, all I did was make an unqualified suggestion for discussion purposes only as a way to give back to the players in such a way that their contributions are met in return without making it a payday.

Please stop with the strawman, you are completely ignoring the attempt to create ideas based on the constaints set by being an amature sport. This is where you go from paying attention and thinking to not at all. Stop isolating what I am saying out of context... it makes you look dumb.

Pablo wrote:
You talk about dreaming up all this crazy stuff, but these dreams have you even stopped to notice how you have one dream and virtually EVERYONE else has the other. Then again, crazy folks always think it is eveyone else who is crazy!


Once you guys address what I am really saying and not what you are dreaming up I'll maybe take you seriously. How can I take what you say serious when you continually not address what I am saying and create some other argument I am not making. Argue againstt my points, not ones you dream me up making. Then we can get somewhere. Example, NJOAR has FINALLY taken the time to read a report I posted and make a logical argument back. I noted that, great job... but it took how many things I have poste for one person to actually read it, comprehend it, and respond with a logical conclusion? You admittedly haven't even taken the time to read any of the posted articles and referenced studies.

How am I suppsed to take any of your guys responces and adjust my thinking if you ignore what I am really saying?

Pablo wrote:
You give these kids this money and where does it get them? I'll tell you, they will want more. Money doesn't solve the problem, it adds to it. Do you simply not understand this concept? Take highly paid pro athletes, give them millions of dollars, and look how many are broke shortly after hanging up the cleats. That is the real world. In your fantasy world, these kids match these additional funds to their expenses. In the real world, they rack up even more debt on top of it.


You don't give them what they want, you give them at minimum what they reasonably would have for expenses calculated by a third party. Some kids this will be enough, others it won't matter as you say and they will then have no excuses to give. For you to mark every one of them as hoodlums is silly and rude IMO. That is a bad generalization to say they wouldn't change their mind if they had all their realistic cost met. Are the OSU players who took some money for travel reimbursement hoodlums just looking for a payday? Some of these kids are making minor mistakes and paying for it, they arent' hoodlums. They aren't even doing anything illegal.

You are not just "giving them money." You are from outside input figuring out the real cost of living and making sure the kids have it. It's not throwing money, it is acknowledging the reasonable need and filling it to disuade give them less reason to make a mistake. It is reasonable because it is REAL cost of living. To say "well they are just going to screw it up so why try" IMO is ignorant and rude.

Pablo wrote:
ONE of the many unintended consequences of what you propose is that these players would end up leaving school with MORE debt than they currently do. In essence, your solution will only exacerbate the problem you are trying to solve.


If they choose to muck up a completely paid for situation is their mistake then. We cannot hand hold everyone, the schools are putting in classes to teach financial management (at least OSU is after the last round). If they screw it up for themselves after getting all realistic things paid for then that is their mistake to figure out. I'm not trying to fix the screwed up kids, just give the ones that will make good decisions (which is MOST of these kids if we are being honest) better tools to achieve success.

Screwed up kids are screwed up kids. If they have an attitude, they have an attitude. If they think they can spend all they have and more then they will. But those who have a $3-$4k net income those on the margin or good kids will either attain debt, get a job, or take money against the rules. Make up for the reasonable cost they incur going to the school they help make money for takes those good kids and marginal kids and gives them tools to not have to make those choices. The bad kids will do what they are going to do...

Don't damn the good and marginal kids because a FEW bad apples. That is what you are doing.

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September 16th, 2011, 5:48 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
steensn wrote:
Again... you are simply taking the fact I even mentioned the NFL and you are off target. What am I advocating... please... in context. I am advocating a slight increase in scholarship to cover the cost of living expenses at the university you are contributing to which is benefiting from your choice to go there. NOT compensation inline with your contribution. If I was advocating that I would be advocating what the data indicated for an NFL style weighting. Since I am not, I am advocating the stipend they ALREADY GET (clearly showing I'm within amateur compensation and not NFL compensation) more closely match the actual cost to go to thatt university nad contrubute on that team at the school because all student athletes getting the full scholarship in that sport would end up getting the same deal.

Please, stop ignoring what I am proposing and if you continue to act like my suggestion in not exactly in line with what they are doing already as amature athletes instead of bolding every time I say NFL and ignoring my post. Clearly you haven't been reading any of my post... not just this one.

/reading at all is fundamental...

This is the first time you've stated the bolded part that I have seen (granted I've only been reading the last page or two) and that I can agree with. I even tried to get clarification and you seemed to dance around the answer:

TheRealWags wrote:
steensn wrote:
Guys, it isn't our job or the NCAA job to teach this kids all the life lessons that they should learn. My parents couldn't pay for my college, I am still paying it off along with my wifes.

The point is that they earned it, that is the point here. Cover their expenses, all of it, and move on. I don't if you guys want to throw out red herrings and talk about what your family could or couldn't afford. It is irrelevent. These kids are bringing in through their actions MORE money than most proffessors for their college. They should have covered their expenses for the year to go to that school. It is responcable, it is right, why fight it? Because you didn't the same opportunity? Because you think they should learn a life lesson?

That isn't the place for the NCAA to do.

It sounds like on one hand you're advocating for paying student athletes, while on the other to update the scholarship amounts. Which is it? :confused:


As an aside, might I request/suggest that when you're responding to someone you quote them in your post because, at least for me, it gets rather confusing trying to figure out who you're responding to.

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September 17th, 2011, 3:53 pm
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Post Re: NCAA Could Allow More Scholarships to Schools
It's not... you can take my word for it or go back and read the back and forth...

I try, but sometimes it get's too long (like this one would have ;) haha!)

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September 17th, 2011, 8:44 pm
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