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 What's God got to do with it? 
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Post What's God got to do with it?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 7363.story

LA Times wrote:
What's God got to do with it?

He may be invoked in the national motto, but God has nothing to do with why Americans are free and secure.

The House voted 396-9 this week to reaffirm as the national motto the phrase "In God We Trust" and encouraged its pronouncement on public buildings and continued printing on the coin of the realm. The motto was made official in 1956 during the height of Cold War hysteria over godless communism and — in the words of Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper in "Dr. Strangelove" — "Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

As risible a reason as this was for knocking out a few bricks in the wall separating state and church, it was at least understandable in the context of the times. But today, what is the point of having this motto? There are no communist threats, and belief in God or a universal spirit among Americans is still holding strong at about 90%, according to a 2011 Gallup Poll. The answer is in the wording of the resolution voted on: "Whereas if religion and morality are taken out of the marketplace of ideas, the very freedom on which the United States was founded cannot be secured."

What is troubling — and should trouble any enlightened citizen of a modern nation such as ours — is the implication that in this age of science and technology, computers and cyberspace, and liberal democracies securing rights and freedoms for oppressed peoples all over the globe, that anyone could still hold to the belief that religion has a monopoly on morality and that the foundation of trust is based on engraving four words on brick and paper.

If you think that God is watching over the U.S., please ask yourself why he glanced away during 9/11 or why he chose to abandon the good folks of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, and why he continues to allow earthquakes and cancers to strike down even blameless children. The problem of evil — why bad things happen to good people if an all-powerful and all-good God is in control of things — has haunted the faithful since it was first articulated millenniums ago, with nigh a solution on the horizon.

It's time to drop the God talk and face reality with a steely-eyed visage of the modern understanding of the origin of freedom on which the United States was founded and continues to be secured. God has nothing to do with it. If you want freedom and security, you need the following:

The rule of law; property rights; a secure and trustworthy banking and monetary system; economic stability; a reliable infrastructure and the freedom to move about the country; freedom of the press; freedom of association; education for the masses; protection of civil liberties; a clean and safe environment; a robust military for protection of our liberties from attacks by other states; a potent police force for protection of our freedoms from attacks by people within the state; a viable legislative system for establishing fair and just laws; and an effective judicial system for the equitable enforcement of those fair and just laws.

With these in place the citizens of a nation feel free and secure. Why? The answer is in the final word of the motto: Trust. Claremont Graduate University economist Paul Zak has studied trust among nations and found that the more of these components that are in place, the more citizens trust one another. Zak even computed the differences in living standards that trust can affect, demonstrating that a 15% increase in the proportion of people in a country who think others are trustworthy raises income per person by 1% per year for every year thereafter. For example, increasing levels of trust in the U.S. from its current 36% to 51% would raise the average income for every man, woman and child in the country by $400 per year. Trust pays.

Trust has fiscal benefits that are derived through specific political and economic policies that have nothing whatsoever to do with religion or belief in God. Despite a strong faith in God, the percentage of Americans who believe that "religion can answer all or most of today's problems" has plummeted from 82% to 58%, while those who believe that "religion is old-fashioned and out of date" leaped from 7% to 28%, according to a 2010 Gallup Poll. Thus it would seem that Americans are more aware today than half a century ago that it's up to us to secure our freedom through enlightened secular policies with practical social applications rather than faith-based hope in empty mottoes reflecting an era gone by.


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November 4th, 2011, 10:33 am
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
Hold it!

Why is it when bad things happen it's God's fault?

If you think that God is watching over the U.S., please ask yourself why he glanced away during 9/11 or why he chose to abandon the good folks of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, and why he continues to allow earthquakes and cancers to strike down even blameless children. The problem of evil — why bad things happen to good people if an all-powerful and all-good God is in control of things — has haunted the faithful since it was first articulated millenniums ago, with nigh a solution on the horizon.

Why is it God get's the blame for the choice of others? The innocent often bear the consequences for the choices we make. If I choose to commit adultery, my wife and family are hurt, because of my choice. Did they deserve it? No! But they still reap the penalty for my choice.

In the case of illness, we as a culture NO LONGER rely on healthy foods, and you can't tell me the preservatives and processed foods we eat don't chemically affect our bodies. If you look that the labels of just about EVERYTHING we consume, you have hydrogenatedwhatchamacallit, polysoyglucanator, and sodiumhydroxide polysorbate, and so on. All of these chemicals get into our systems through what we eat, breathe, and drink, and WILL be passed along to our offspring.

Just because you have two seemingly healthy people who come together doesn't mean that on a molecular level they are compatable to have healthy kids. At best it's Russian Roulette, but on a much larger scale. But that's God's fault too eh?

The problem with humanity is we want our cake, and we want to eat it too. We don't want God in our lives telling us what to do, how to live, telling me my lifestyle or choices are wrong, until we are in the midst of great loss or tragedy and then we reach screaming, "God where are you."

Humanity needs to get a clue and a grip in that God does NOT bear the blame for this FALLEN WORLD we do. When Lucifer was booted from heaven, he made earth, the sky, the sea, all of it his domain, and he has 98% control over what happens to this place. Now God will allow somethings or most things to happen in order that those who are going through them can be ministered to.

This is Jesus speaking of himself: Isaiah 61:1, "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoner."
So this speaks to hurts, and injuries, loss and economic status' back then, that continue today. We who bear the name of Jesus in our lives and hearts are to do as He did, and try to accomplish the same. So for all of these instances where "ACTS OF GOD" have happened, I guess you could say it is an AOG, because God's people generally respond in massive ways to meet the needs of those struck by tragedies.

Does He engineer them, not yet, that comes with judgement, but if we wonder where God is, then what can we expect when we kick Him out of our lives, our schools, our government, our way of life. How many times are you going to be rejected before you give in and say okay, "you don't want me I'm gone?"

So lets put this in proper perspective in this area of the article alone.

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November 4th, 2011, 12:10 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
we want our cake, and we want to eat it too


What is funny is I think exactly the same thing in exactly the opposite way. What I mean by this is you made it clear in our other thread that all the glory (or good), you associate with God. But none of the bad gets associated with your diety. talk about wanting your cake and eating it too!

Quote:
Why is it when bad things happen it's God's fault?


see above. Imagine being a QB who gets all the praise when he/team does good but when anything goes wrong it isn't his fault. How about a CEO? How about anyone or any being other than God?

If you want a relationship with us, you want to be prayed to and worshipped, you want to be praised for every little miracle and every good thing that happens - well, if you really want a relationship with us you better be willing to take some blame when things don't go well. Oh wait, that is logical and common sense - scratch that please.

Why is it God's fault? He created everything and knows everything that will happen with the power to change anything he pleases.

Lets talk about your choice again. Even though God created you, the womanizer that you are (in theory only), isn't he partly to blame? On-the-flip-side, imagine you have sex with your wife, she gets pregnant, has a baby ~ I bet you credit this little "miracle" to his holyness (king of all cake eaters).

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November 4th, 2011, 12:57 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
The only problem I have with your "argument" is that you have totally disregarded the presence of satan, lucifer, the devil.

The father of all lies, deception, and an enemy to all man kind is getting us to believe he DOESN'T exist, therefore it all belongs to God. Good and bad, and that's simply not true.

We are in a war on a spiritual level, good vs evil, and yet we humans in our audacity, point the finger and say, "IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT." When in truth, we are bearing the burden of those who've made choice for us, before us, and so on.

Case in point: (NOT A THREAD JACK) With the economic disaster that Obamacare will bring, who bears the burden? Your children and mine, our grand children and so on. But who made the decision? Washington! See my point? A course of action has been set upon whether we like it or not, and we have to endure the hardships and hurts for things that occur based upon decision we may not have made. But also keep in mind that we make decisions that affect our situations too, and those bear consequences to the innocent around us.

So for every finger we point at God, we need to look at the 3 fingers pointing back at us.

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November 4th, 2011, 1:09 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
The only problem I have with your "argument" is that you have totally disregarded the presence of satan, lucifer, the devil.

The father of all lies, deception, and an enemy to all man kind is getting us to believe he DOESN'T exist, therefore it all belongs to God. Good and bad, and that's simply not true.


Assuming the Devil does exist, wasn't he created by God and didn't this omniscient being know exactly how the Devil would turn out and how everything would unfold?

Still have a problem with my argument?

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November 4th, 2011, 2:01 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
Pablo wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
The only problem I have with your "argument" is that you have totally disregarded the presence of satan, lucifer, the devil.

The father of all lies, deception, and an enemy to all man kind is getting us to believe he DOESN'T exist, therefore it all belongs to God. Good and bad, and that's simply not true.


Assuming the Devil does exist, wasn't he created by God and didn't this omniscient being know exactly how the Devil would turn out and how everything would unfold?

Still have a problem with my argument?


Man, Pablo... you are something else.. but in a good way. The stuff you post on here about religion are the same thoughts I have, but not as good of a wordsmith as you so I have trouble getting my point across. Glad that you don't so I can see what others have to say in response.

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November 4th, 2011, 3:11 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
Pablo:

I still disagree and here's why.

1st: Before mankind came into existance, there was Heaven, a place where God exists, with all of the angels he's created. The angel's have been created for a purpose, to serve God. There is no choice in the matter, this is why they were created. Lucifer was created as the "chief" angel. He was above all other angels, but pride was found in him. He then goes on to say, that he would reign on the mountain of God that he would be worshipped, and that He would over throw God. Thus a war happened in which lucifer and his 1/3 of the angels were cast down from heaven, and came to the earth.

2nd: God stated in Genesis 1:26-27, " Let us make man in OUR image, male and female He created them." So the GOD of relationship, father, son, and holy spirit, formed man FOR relationship. So this becomes act II of the story in which man comes into play. Now man and woman walked with God in the Garden of Eden, sharing fellowship with him, DAILY. But Lucifer, who could not attack or defeat God, did the next best thing and attacked those that bear the image of God.

3rd: Since that time frame, the time of man has been upon the Earth, and we are living out the days according to our design and purpose, some know him, and some don't. God, being righteous and good, wants all to know him, BUT He created mankind for relationship. Now jumping back to my point in the other thread. How can you have a TRUE relationship based upon force? God does NOT have a relationship with His angels, but He has chosen to have a RELATIONSHIP with us. But He will not impose His will upon us! He has given us the right to choose. Every man or woman that draws a breath has or will be given a chance to choose.

4th: The time of judgment, this is a time when God says enough is enough and He will deal with lucifer, his demons, and all who reject God and the relationship He offers. This is where the eternity in Hell comes in. A place of suffering and torment of ETERNITY!


I am absolutely serious about checking out the book "Epic, the story God is telling" by John Eldredge. He puts it in a much better perspective than I ever could and you can get them pretty cheap. As I said, I will buy it and ship it to you at no charge if you seriously wish to read it.

Satan does exist, and he doesn't want you or anyone else in a relationship with God. He hates you more than you could ever know, because unbeknownst to you, you bear witness to the goodness of God, just be BEING HUMAN. You bear the image of all that is good an pleasing to God, we all do, and because of that, satan wishes us destroyed.

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November 4th, 2011, 3:48 pm
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
Pablo wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
The only problem I have with your "argument" is that you have totally disregarded the presence of satan, lucifer, the devil.

The father of all lies, deception, and an enemy to all man kind is getting us to believe he DOESN'T exist, therefore it all belongs to God. Good and bad, and that's simply not true.


Assuming the Devil does exist, wasn't he created by God and didn't this omniscient being know exactly how the Devil would turn out and how everything would unfold?

Still have a problem with my argument?



I dont understand your point.

Correct me where im wrong here but is seems that you have it in your head that god promised nothing but rainbows and sunshine on tyhis earth....that seems to be what you expect from a god. where are you getting that from? if everything was perfect here...why would we need a heaven? it would already be here.


I simply dont understand why you assume a god would not test us, would not allow us to deal with the evil WE commit?

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November 5th, 2011, 11:43 am
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Post Re: What's God got to do with it?
I view "In God We Trust" as an ironic motto.

We're so fudge, and are just flying by the seat of our pants, that we hope to god it works out.


November 5th, 2011, 1:09 pm
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