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 2012 NFL Mock Draft 
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
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I think both you and wjb are rating all tight ends strictly on receiving statistics, and not taking into account what they do for the team in regards to blocking. Antonio Gates and Jimmy Graham are great receiving TEs, but they aren't all that great at inline blocking. Tony Gonzalez is still a good receiver, but is nowhere near the player he once was overall.

Is Pettigrew a top 5 TE? I guess that's up for debate. But stating that he drops 20-25% of his passes is ridiculous in the extreme. He has his drops, I know. But he doesn't drop one out of four thrown to him. I will agree, however, that his drops seem to come at critical moments. But then again, so do penalties from Cherilus or Peterman or Suh or Burleson or.......anybody. I find it funny that people are quick to point out Pettgrew dropping a pass, but fail to mention that Calvin drops just as many. So does Burleson.


read my post, i commented on pettigrew s blocking, he s a good blocker at times but isnt as consistent as some think he is and as a receiver there are plenty better than him. maybe he s close to that top 5 range overall but he s not substantially better than most of those players in the 5-15 range. he s definitely not a better player overall than Jimmy Graham, even taking blocking into consideration.


February 16th, 2012, 5:21 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
wait im confused. you just admit that he could arguably be a top 5 guy in his position...and yet he's no good? help!


February 16th, 2012, 5:45 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
The Legend wrote:
read my post, i commented on pettigrew s blocking, he s a good blocker at times but isnt as consistent as some think he is and as a receiver there are plenty better than him. maybe he s close to that top 5 range overall but he s not substantially better than most of those players in the 5-15 range. he s definitely not a better player overall than Jimmy Graham, even taking blocking into consideration.



So then you are faulting the Lions for selecting a near top 5 TE in the first round because other teams were able to find some productive TEs in latter rounds?

As for Jimmy Graham, he was a crapshoot as a draft pick. The talent was there, but the experience was not. Other teams passed on him before the Saints finally took him. He could easily have been a bust. Pettigrew was selected at #20 because he was a known commodity who people knew would help in both aspects of the offensive gameplan. I have been critical of him myself because of some of his miscues, but criticizing the Lions for selecting ANY player 20th overall who has been one of the best at his position the past couple years is kind of nitpicky in the extreme.

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February 17th, 2012, 3:21 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
Rob Gronkowski was a "known commodity" and he wasn't selected until the 10th pick into the 2nd round. Aaron Hernadez was a good prospect and he wasn't selected until the 4th round.

The fact is, not many "blocking TE's" are selected in Rd. 1. They're usually gifted, very athletic almost WR types like Jeremy Shocky, V Davis, etc. When we selected Pett the scoop on him was he was more or less a 3rd OT on the field. That certainly hasn't been the case.


February 17th, 2012, 5:33 pm
Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
allenslions wrote:
As someone who makes his living evaluating football players let me tell you how he rates.top 4 at hos position .only behind kronk,davis and witten.and as for his drops only those 3 drop fewer with as many attempts.i think u need to start watching other te


You're out of your tree. Gresham is at least as good. In addition to your three, Henderson, Finley, Graham, Miller, and Olsen are all BETTER than Pett right now. I'd take Tony Gonzalez right now over Pett, though admittedly he is on his way out, and Pett may improve. I'd put Pett on Owen Daniel's level, but IMO Daniel's is more sure handed.

The TE is supposed to be you're relief valve. He's supposed to be one of your most sure handed guys in your receiving corps. He's supposed to grind out those tough, hard to get yards, and reel in those tough catches that get your first downs. That's not what he does, by any stretch of the imagination.


February 17th, 2012, 5:44 pm
Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
m2karateman wrote:
The Legend wrote:
read my post, i commented on pettigrew s blocking, he s a good blocker at times but isnt as consistent as some think he is and as a receiver there are plenty better than him. maybe he s close to that top 5 range overall but he s not substantially better than most of those players in the 5-15 range. he s definitely not a better player overall than Jimmy Graham, even taking blocking into consideration.



So then you are faulting the Lions for selecting a near top 5 TE in the first round because other teams were able to find some productive TEs in latter rounds?

As for Jimmy Graham, he was a crapshoot as a draft pick. The talent was there, but the experience was not. Other teams passed on him before the Saints finally took him. He could easily have been a bust. Pettigrew was selected at #20 because he was a known commodity who people knew would help in both aspects of the offensive gameplan. I have been critical of him myself because of some of his miscues, but criticizing the Lions for selecting ANY player 20th overall who has been one of the best at his position the past couple years is kind of nitpicky in the extreme.


I disagree M2. Not when that player is a TE and not when TEs are traditionally taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds. It's no different than criticizing the Javid Best pick. He was a 3rd round running back in the same mold of Choice, Barber, Smith, etc. and we took him in the first round - that's GARBAGE!

Looking back, would you have drafted Pett at the same spot? I wouldn't have. I think he's a mid to late second round pick, at best.


February 17th, 2012, 5:46 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Looking back, would you have drafted Pett at the same spot? I wouldn't have. I think he's a mid to late second round pick, at best.


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February 17th, 2012, 7:22 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I disagree M2. Not when that player is a TE and not when TEs are traditionally taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds. It's no different than criticizing the Javid Best pick. He was a 3rd round running back in the same mold of Choice, Barber, Smith, etc. and we took him in the first round - that's GARBAGE!


I'm sorry, but the idea of getting a productive player in round one is not what I call garbage, regardless of the players position...outside punter and kicker. And even then...the Lions used a second round pick on Jason Hanson. I suppose you view that as a garbage pick as well then? I criticize the Best pick ONLY because he had an injury history and there were concerns from the get go. Not so with Pettigrew. Pettigrew overcome his rookie year injury and produces. I think, personally, you expect too much simply because of his draft status. You focus on Pettigrew because you have a burr in your saddle about them taking him over Alex Mack, and that they didn't "listen" to you. Saying that Best was in the same mold of those other guys is ludicrous. Best has abilities those other players don't. He has tremendous top speed and quickness those others will NEVER have. I didn't agree with the Lions moving up to get Best, but only because of the injury concerns, not because of his position or his ability.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
Looking back, would you have drafted Pett at the same spot? I wouldn't have. I think he's a mid to late second round pick, at best.


Look back and my final mock for that year, and you'll find that is the player I had going to the Lions. I had been stating that if the Bills passed on Pettigrew (they took Aaron Maybin, who would you take now?!) and Pettigrew slid down to Detroit. Pettigrew was considered by many, many experts that year to be a top 20 pick. Some even felt he was worthy of top ten consideration.

Looking back, the Lions could have done a LOT worse:

1. Stafford
2. Jason Smith, Rams (TOTAL BUST!)
3. Tyoka Jackson, Chiefs (Barely serviceable)
4. Aaron Curry, Seahawks (What most Detroit fans wanted, basically a bust)
5. Mark Sanchez, Jets (VERY overrated and his luster is fading fast)
6. Andre Smith, Bengals (will never be that great)
7. Darrius Heyward-Bay, Raiders (HUGE reach but is OK in the slot)
8. Eugene Monroe, Jaguars (OK, but definitely not a top ten talent)
9. B.J. Raji, Packers (outside Stafford, the only one worth his draft status so far)
10. Michael Crabtree, 49ers (incredibly overrated and is not a true number 1 WR)
11. Aaron Maybin, Bills (old news..BUST!!)
12. Knowshon Moreno, Broncos (basically sucks)
13. Brian Orakpo, Redskins (should have gone top five, great pick)
14. Malcolm Jenkins, Saints (moved to safety, not a value here but a decent player)
15. Brian Cushing, Texans (started out strong, but not the player Matthews is)
16. Larry English, Chargers (BUST-a-roonie)
17. Josh Freeman, Bucs (Good pick this late, but will never be truly great)
18. Robert Ayers, Broncos (bust number two for Denver in the top 20)
19. Jeremy Maclin, Eagles (OK receiver, but not a top 20 talent in most drafts)
20. Pettigrew

Now, out of that top 20 the Lions got two of the most productive players. The five taken beyond the Lions pick at number 20:

Alex Mack, Percy Harvin, Michael Oher, Peria Jerry, Vontae Davis

Among them, the one I was most interested in at 20 was Vontae Davis. But I still felt Pettigrew as a safer pick, even if he didn't play what most feel to be a premium skill position. The Lions were NOT going to pick Alex Mack in 2009, simply because the incoming staff was happy with Raiola. Many others liked Michael Oher. I thought he would have been a great value pick there. He started off gangbusters, but has fallen back to earth. Peria Jerry has all but been a bust, and Percy Harvin wasn't a real need.

Sorry, but I think the Lions did pretty good with that pick, and you won't get me to change my mind at all. With Linehan coming in as the OC, the Lions wanted someone with more receiving ability than Will Heller. Given the garbage they had at TE before hand, I can understand their sentiment.

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February 20th, 2012, 12:19 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I disagree M2. Not when that player is a TE and not when TEs are traditionally taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds. It's no different than criticizing the Javid Best pick. He was a 3rd round running back in the same mold of Choice, Barber, Smith, etc. and we took him in the first round - that's GARBAGE!


I'm sorry, but the idea of getting a productive player in round one is not what I call garbage, regardless of the players position...outside punter and kicker. And even then...the Lions used a second round pick on Jason Hanson. I suppose you view that as a garbage pick as well then? I criticize the Best pick ONLY because he had an injury history and there were concerns from the get go. Not so with Pettigrew. Pettigrew overcome his rookie year injury and produces. I think, personally, you expect too much simply because of his draft status. You focus on Pettigrew because you have a burr in your saddle about them taking him over Alex Mack, and that they didn't "listen" to you. Saying that Best was in the same mold of those other guys is ludicrous. Best has abilities those other players don't. He has tremendous top speed and quickness those others will NEVER have. I didn't agree with the Lions moving up to get Best, but only because of the injury concerns, not because of his position or his ability.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
Looking back, would you have drafted Pett at the same spot? I wouldn't have. I think he's a mid to late second round pick, at best.


Look back and my final mock for that year, and you'll find that is the player I had going to the Lions. I had been stating that if the Bills passed on Pettigrew (they took Aaron Maybin, who would you take now?!) and Pettigrew slid down to Detroit. Pettigrew was considered by many, many experts that year to be a top 20 pick. Some even felt he was worthy of top ten consideration.

Looking back, the Lions could have done a LOT worse:

1. Stafford
2. Jason Smith, Rams (TOTAL BUST!)
3. Tyoka Jackson, Chiefs (Barely serviceable)
4. Aaron Curry, Seahawks (What most Detroit fans wanted, basically a bust)
5. Mark Sanchez, Jets (VERY overrated and his luster is fading fast)
6. Andre Smith, Bengals (will never be that great)
7. Darrius Heyward-Bay, Raiders (HUGE reach but is OK in the slot)
8. Eugene Monroe, Jaguars (OK, but definitely not a top ten talent)
9. B.J. Raji, Packers (outside Stafford, the only one worth his draft status so far)
10. Michael Crabtree, 49ers (incredibly overrated and is not a true number 1 WR)
11. Aaron Maybin, Bills (old news..BUST!!)
12. Knowshon Moreno, Broncos (basically sucks)
13. Brian Orakpo, Redskins (should have gone top five, great pick)
14. Malcolm Jenkins, Saints (moved to safety, not a value here but a decent player)
15. Brian Cushing, Texans (started out strong, but not the player Matthews is)
16. Larry English, Chargers (BUST-a-roonie)
17. Josh Freeman, Bucs (Good pick this late, but will never be truly great)
18. Robert Ayers, Broncos (bust number two for Denver in the top 20)
19. Jeremy Maclin, Eagles (OK receiver, but not a top 20 talent in most drafts)
20. Pettigrew

Now, out of that top 20 the Lions got two of the most productive players. The five taken beyond the Lions pick at number 20:

Alex Mack, Percy Harvin, Michael Oher, Peria Jerry, Vontae Davis

Among them, the one I was most interested in at 20 was Vontae Davis. But I still felt Pettigrew as a safer pick, even if he didn't play what most feel to be a premium skill position. The Lions were NOT going to pick Alex Mack in 2009, simply because the incoming staff was happy with Raiola. Many others liked Michael Oher. I thought he would have been a great value pick there. He started off gangbusters, but has fallen back to earth. Peria Jerry has all but been a bust, and Percy Harvin wasn't a real need.

Sorry, but I think the Lions did pretty good with that pick, and you won't get me to change my mind at all. With Linehan coming in as the OC, the Lions wanted someone with more receiving ability than Will Heller. Given the garbage they had at TE before hand, I can understand their sentiment.


Great post, m2K. When complaining about a decision, you always have to consider what the likely alternatives were at the time. You've done a good job of laying out what those alternatives were, and as we can see, very few of them are appealing.

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February 20th, 2012, 12:27 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
Looking back Alex Mack would have been the better pick, hands down. I don't care if the FO was "happy with Raiola" that's what I have the problem with. When we drafted Pett., Raiola was in his 2nd from last year on his contract, he's undersized, and he's a bum. If we would have drafted Mack he could have played OG for us for one year, and we could have let Dom walk after the 2010 season, instead of extending his contract and grossly over-paying him. We would have a better OL, a younger OL, a stronger middle, a better OC and we would be saving approximately $3-4 million per year for the next three years had we drafted Mack over Pett, period.


February 20th, 2012, 3:22 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Looking back Alex Mack would have been the better pick, hands down. I don't care if the FO was "happy with Raiola" that's what I have the problem with. When we drafted Pett., Raiola was in his 2nd from last year on his contract, he's undersized, and he's a bum. If we would have drafted Mack he could have played OG for us for one year, and we could have let Dom walk after the 2010 season, instead of extending his contract and grossly over-paying him. We would have a better OL, a younger OL, a stronger middle, a better OC and we would be saving approximately $3-4 million per year for the next three years had we drafted Mack over Pett, period.


wjb, I don't disagree with that. I would prefer having Alex Mack too. But that doesn't make the Pettigrew pick bad. At the time, it made sense and upgraded that position. He's productive and he was by far the best TE prospect in that draft. Maybe the Lions could have tried to wait until pick 33 to get him....but I'm sure another team would have taken him between 20 and 32. And you never know, maybe the Lions tried to trade down but didn't get any takers?

The point is, who they selected has worked out, much better than many other players taken ahead of him. So I, and many others, don't consider it a wasted pick....certainly not as much as you do, it seems. While Mack may be a better player right now, there are no guarantees in the draft. Hindsight, buddy.

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February 21st, 2012, 11:02 am
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
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You're out of your tree. Gresham is at least as good. In addition to your three, Henderson, Finley, Graham, Miller, and Olsen are all BETTER than Pett right now. I'd take Tony Gonzalez right now over Pett, though admittedly he is on his way out, and Pett may improve. I'd put Pett on Owen Daniel's level, but IMO Daniel's is more sure handed.

I think you are being too hard on him. because he plays for your team, his mistakes are magnified

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February 21st, 2012, 4:45 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Looking back Alex Mack would have been the better pick, hands down. I don't care if the FO was "happy with Raiola" that's what I have the problem with. When we drafted Pett., Raiola was in his 2nd from last year on his contract, he's undersized, and he's a bum. If we would have drafted Mack he could have played OG for us for one year, and we could have let Dom walk after the 2010 season, instead of extending his contract and grossly over-paying him. We would have a better OL, a younger OL, a stronger middle, a better OC and we would be saving approximately $3-4 million per year for the next three years had we drafted Mack over Pett, period.


wjb, I don't disagree with that. I would prefer having Alex Mack too. But that doesn't make the Pettigrew pick bad. At the time, it made sense and upgraded that position. He's productive and he was by far the best TE prospect in that draft. Maybe the Lions could have tried to wait until pick 33 to get him....but I'm sure another team would have taken him between 20 and 32. And you never know, maybe the Lions tried to trade down but didn't get any takers?

The point is, who they selected has worked out, much better than many other players taken ahead of him. So I, and many others, don't consider it a wasted pick....certainly not as much as you do, it seems. While Mack may be a better player right now, there are no guarantees in the draft. Hindsight, buddy.



IMO an OG/OC that has played lights out in college is about as safe a draft pick as you can get. Pett was the much riskier choice, at a position that generally commands less salary. It's not hindsight that guided me when I wanted Mack before the draft, it was rational thought. I understand that what's done is done, but that doesn't make it right.

IMO the only TEs that are worthy of first round pay and worthy of a first round pick are guys like Shockey, Vernon Davis, and Greg Olson who are more or less impossible to cover WRs built like TEs, that can block when they need to, OR guys like Heath Miller - extremely sure-handed makes great, exceptional one handed catches that you wouldn't think a 260lb white guy could make, AND blocks well to boot. IMO Pett just doesn't fit that bill, and didn't fit it at the time. Now don't get me wrong, I realize that he was MARKETED that way, but our scouts should have been able to see through it.

I realize that 2009 was a weak TE class. Trust me, I went back and looked, but perhaps that just means that we should have either 1) neglected TE all together that year (we had FAR more important holes), or 2) traded for one. I don't know what it would have taken to get Greg Olson from Chicago, or Kevin Boss from the Giants, or Ben Watson from NE (he wasn't really working out there) but I have to believe it would have been less than a first rounder. Maybe I'm wrong. I also wouldn't have minded signing someone like Leonard Pope. I just think that Pett was the wrong decision then, and he hasn't done anything to change my mind.


February 21st, 2012, 5:06 pm
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
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The Legend wrote:

read my post, i commented on pettigrew s blocking, he s a good blocker at times but isnt as consistent as some think he is and as a receiver there are plenty better than him. maybe he s close to that top 5 range overall but he s not substantially better than most of those players in the 5-15 range. he s definitely not a better player overall than Jimmy Graham, even taking blocking into consideration.



So then you are faulting the Lions for selecting a near top 5 TE in the first round because other teams were able to find some productive TEs in latter rounds?

As for Jimmy Graham, he was a crapshoot as a draft pick. The talent was there, but the experience was not. Other teams passed on him before the Saints finally took him. He could easily have been a bust. Pettigrew was selected at #20 because he was a known commodity who people knew would help in both aspects of the offensive gameplan. I have been critical of him myself because of some of his miscues, but criticizing the Lions for selecting ANY player 20th overall who has been one of the best at his position the past couple years is kind of nitpicky in the extreme.


no - im not suggesting that at all. that was something wjb said. i just dont believe that pettigrew is a solid top 5 player at his position just yet. he might be able to get there at some point but right now there are too many letdowns in blocking and with the hands. vs the saints part I, it looked like he was trying to get a personal foul all game then finally calmed down after he got one pushing a ref - huge maturity issue. this is far from a perfect player but one that should improve. however, i seriously doubt he will ever be among the true elite at the position and will at best be in the tier just below the truly dominant players at the position. he is not anywhere near as good as jason witten no matter how close someone lists him in the rankings.


February 22nd, 2012, 12:14 am
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Post Re: New 2012 NFL Mock Draft
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wait im confused. you just admit that he could arguably be a top 5 guy in his position...and yet he's no good? help!


where did i say he s no good? he s a player that deserves the criticism he gets - there are things both physical and mental that he needs to improve. never said he s no good like u allege - nice try though joe


February 22nd, 2012, 12:20 am
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