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 Offensive Tackles 
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
i would be very cautious of konz unless there is a good explanation of that workout. the main complaint on raiola is that he s undersized and gets pushed around by big nose tackles - well konz w 18 reps doesnt make me feel too confident on that front. raiola is one of the stronger players to have ever gone through the university of nebraska so maybe the numbers dont correlate all that well with what you see on the field but i have a hard time accepting 18 reps for a 1st rd pick on the interior line.


February 26th, 2012, 2:15 am
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
The Legend wrote:
i would be very cautious of konz unless there is a good explanation of that workout. the main complaint on raiola is that he s undersized and gets pushed around by big nose tackles - well konz w 18 reps doesnt make me feel too confident on that front. raiola is one of the stronger players to have ever gone through the university of nebraska so maybe the numbers dont correlate all that well with what you see on the field but i have a hard time accepting 18 reps for a 1st rd pick on the interior line.


From another thread, but applies:
David Molk is 6'1" 285ish. He is a very chesty guy, and he set out to break the all time record at bench pressing. Perhaps Molk should have focused more on his technique and lower 1/2 than his pecks, and he would be looking like a better prospect. Molk looks a LOT like Raiola, small (285), short (relatively speaking), with short arms. With short arms and a big chest he's pushing that weight about 12", with long arms and not being as chesty Konz is pushing that weight about 18", but that doesn't even tell the whole story.

VERY little of your chest muscles are used when you're blocking someone. Blocking has more to do with your core and legs than your chest. It's your ability to stay upright without getting bent backward (core) and your ability to keep your leverage and hold your ground (height and lower body strength).

Conveniently, Molk is passing on doing the lower body drills, as his poor foot is still hurt from the Sugar Bowl. IMO if he would have done lower body drills you would have seen that Konz is far superior where he needs to be.

Perhaps Konz doesn't have as strong of a chest because he works out properly the muscles that best correlate to proper and effective blocking? I just know that I am a "Michigan man" and that Konz is far superior to Molk.



If Konz's legs grade out with the rest of his class then I wouldn't worry one bit about the strength of his chest. If he's weak all-over it may raise a red flag, but if he's just weak in a muscle group that he really doesn't use, I really don't care.


February 28th, 2012, 5:00 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
i dont see where i compared molk to konz, (but they only measure a 1" difference in arm length) i agree konz seemed to be the better player in games i watched but im still concerned about his strength training and in turn his committment to improving. contrary to what you wrote i find that upper body strength is very important along both the offensive and defensive lines. leg strength is also but i will add that its unusual to find someone that is weak compared to his peers in the upper body but then significantly above average in other areas. if konz at 325 can only bench 225, 18 times i doubt he s setting the world on fire with his squats, power cleans, deadlifts, etc - maybe im wrong but its unlikely.


February 28th, 2012, 9:51 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
The Legend wrote:
i dont see where i compared molk to konz, (but they only measure a 1" difference in arm length) i agree konz seemed to be the better player in games i watched but im still concerned about his strength training and in turn his committment to improving. contrary to what you wrote i find that upper body strength is very important along both the offensive and defensive lines. leg strength is also but i will add that its unusual to find someone that is weak compared to his peers in the upper body but then significantly above average in other areas. if konz at 325 can only bench 225, 18 times i doubt he s setting the world on fire with his squats, power cleans, deadlifts, etc - maybe im wrong but its unlikely.


Sorry Legend, but chest strength has very little to do with blocking. Blockers aren't bench pressing anybody. They extend their hands and use their legs and hips to drive that person away. Hand quickness is far more important than upper body strength. The only thing the upper body strength will give you is a little extra POP on that initial punch. But if your hands aren't quick enough, you don't get that punch in there because the other guy is already into your body and is extending his arms against you, push you back. You better have a strong base then, or you're toast.

If you listen to analysts and scouts talk about offensive linemen, they always want to talk about the "bubble" or the "low CG" a player has, or the thickness of their legs. This is exactly the reason. Upper body is secondary in their eyes. Arm length and quick feet for tackles is important, but having that thick base is a huge advantage for all offensive and defensive linemen. Besides which, building upper body strength is far easier than building lower body strength. Like speed, you either have that kind of frame or you don't.

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February 28th, 2012, 11:02 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
Quote:
Sorry Legend, but chest strength has very little to do with blocking. Blockers aren't bench pressing anybody. They extend their hands and use their legs and hips to drive that person away. Hand quickness is far more important than upper body strength. The only thing the upper body strength will give you is a little extra POP on that initial punch. But if your hands aren't quick enough, you don't get that punch in there because the other guy is already into your body and is extending his arms against you, push you back. You better have a strong base then, or you're toast.

If you listen to analysts and scouts talk about offensive linemen, they always want to talk about the "bubble" or the "low CG" a player has, or the thickness of their legs. This is exactly the reason. Upper body is secondary in their eyes. Arm length and quick feet for tackles is important, but having that thick base is a huge advantage for all offensive and defensive linemen. Besides which, building upper body strength is far easier than building lower body strength. Like speed, you either have that kind of frame or you don't.


two things in ur statement - "chest strength has very little to do with blocking" and "upper body is secondary." the second is true but the first is absolutely wrong.

dude i coached oline/dline for ten years, upper body strength isnt the most important thing but it is important. overall strenght is important though and usually the guys that are benching the most are also up there in squats/deadlifts/cleans/leg press as well. i question how much konz lifts if thats all he can do on the bench. what do i know though, keep the wrong and condascending posts coming


February 29th, 2012, 5:07 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
Sorry Legend, but chest strength has very little to do with blocking. Blockers aren't bench pressing anybody. They extend their hands and use their legs and hips to drive that person away. Hand quickness is far more important than upper body strength. The only thing the upper body strength will give you is a little extra POP on that initial punch. But if your hands aren't quick enough, you don't get that punch in there because the other guy is already into your body and is extending his arms against you, push you back. You better have a strong base then, or you're toast.

If you listen to analysts and scouts talk about offensive linemen, they always want to talk about the "bubble" or the "low CG" a player has, or the thickness of their legs. This is exactly the reason. Upper body is secondary in their eyes. Arm length and quick feet for tackles is important, but having that thick base is a huge advantage for all offensive and defensive linemen. Besides which, building upper body strength is far easier than building lower body strength. Like speed, you either have that kind of frame or you don't.


two things in ur statement - "chest strength has very little to do with blocking" and "upper body is secondary." the second is true but the first is absolutely wrong.

dude i coached oline/dline for ten years, upper body strength isnt the most important thing but it is important. overall strenght is important though and usually the guys that are benching the most are also up there in squats/deadlifts/cleans/leg press as well. i question how much konz lifts if thats all he can do on the bench. what do i know though, keep the wrong and condascending posts coming



Legend, all your chest muscles do in blocking is extend your arms. They may help an OLman direct a defensive player as they come into contact with them, but that's about all chest muscles are good for in blocking. Generally, when you're on the offensive line and blocking someone, you don't want your arms extended. That's when penalties are called.

D-Line is a COMPLETELY different story. On the DL your arms are used to break contact, get away from, get around, or get through an offensive lineman.


February 29th, 2012, 6:32 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
Quote:
Gil Brandt wrote

Bench press

Bench press repetitions of 225 are the standard. This is more than just an exercise for the biggest and strongest linemen. Most all players need upper body strength to excel. Even those at the "finesse" positions, such as wide receiver, use their arms and shoulders to release from, or shield, their opponents. Scouts don't get overly concerned with bench press numbers for a receiver or a quarterback, but the test is critical for offensive and defensive lineman. A lineman benching fewer than 20 times raises red flags.


Target combine numbers by position from Gil Brandt

Quote:
http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d80ecd9a3/article/what-does-the-combine-data-mean-depends-on-your-position


Basically the highest target for bench press is on the interior Oline and DT (26 reps)

Both of you are seriously underestimating how much pushing/grasping/shoving goes on in the trenches. If your chest and arms arent strong you will lose more of the force you are generating from your lower body and will have a harder time absorbing energy from a DT/DE.


February 29th, 2012, 7:37 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
Legend, I'm not saying that I want linemen who can't bench press a runway model. But what I am saying is that moving a player on your board based on that alone is foolishness. If you taught line play in football for 10 years, you know the answer to this. Would you prefer a lineman with great strength and substandard technique, or a lineman who needs strength training but has excellent technique? I think you know the answer.

If Konz only managed 18 lifts and is pretty much accepted as THE best center prospect in this draft despite of it, that says his technique is pretty damn solid. Once a lineman has his arms extended, his chest muscles are doing nothing. Even his arm muscles aren't doing anything. At that point it's all about hips and leg drive, and maintaining your balance.

In truth, I think we all understand the liabilities of not having really good upper body strength for any football player. But I'll take form over substance in a lineman any day of the week.

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February 29th, 2012, 11:09 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
part of it is that it reflects on his dedication. i know he s a good player but he s stepping up into the big leagues and id like to know that he gives a .... im not discounting how he played in college - strength on the field didnt seem to be an issue for him - but i dont want someone who is going to rest on his laurels. 18 reps at 225 for his size in a big time program makes me question that - im not saying he sucks just that id investigate it further and if i hear whispers from coaches/teammates that they feel he s lazy then i would move him down the draft board.


March 1st, 2012, 9:06 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
The Legend wrote:
part of it is that it reflects on his dedication. i know he s a good player but he s stepping up into the big leagues and id like to know that he gives a .... im not discounting how he played in college - strength on the field didnt seem to be an issue for him - but i dont want someone who is going to rest on his laurels. 18 reps at 225 for his size in a big time program makes me question that - im not saying he sucks just that id investigate it further and if i hear whispers from coaches/teammates that they feel he s lazy then i would move him down the draft board.


Very good points, and I agree with all of that. Make no mistake, Konz only putting up the bar 18 times surprised me. The fact that he didn't work out at all during the Combines makes me wonder what the deal is. I've heard that he injured his ankle or something....not quite sure. But even if that is the case, why aren't you working out to prepare for the upcoming Pro Days? I will take a wait and see approach, and see what the general scuttlebutt is when Wisconsin has their Pro Day.

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March 2nd, 2012, 10:11 am
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
Switching directions here, does anyone else think it would be worth pursuing Levi Brown from Arizona or Marcus McNeil? Both sound like they are getting paid too much right now and are likely to be cut. If their value comes down would either make sense? I know McNeil has been injured in recent seasons but I don't think Backus' injury and age make him any more of a stable option. I'd still draft Konz regardless but I think picking up a FA like the 2 mentioned + Konz would go a long way.

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March 6th, 2012, 2:45 am
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
DisgruntledFan wrote:
Switching directions here, does anyone else think it would be worth pursuing Levi Brown from Arizona or Marcus McNeil? Both sound like they are getting paid too much right now and are likely to be cut. If their value comes down would either make sense? I know McNeil has been injured in recent seasons but I don't think Backus' injury and age make him any more of a stable option. I'd still draft Konz regardless but I think picking up a FA like the 2 mentioned + Konz would go a long way.


The thing about Backus' injury history though is at least he stays on the field. I understand where your coming from though.

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March 6th, 2012, 9:34 am
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
DisgruntledFan wrote:
Switching directions here, does anyone else think it would be worth pursuing Levi Brown from Arizona or Marcus McNeil? Both sound like they are getting paid too much right now and are likely to be cut. If their value comes down would either make sense? I know McNeil has been injured in recent seasons but I don't think Backus' injury and age make him any more of a stable option. I'd still draft Konz regardless but I think picking up a FA like the 2 mentioned + Konz would go a long way.


If we pursued Brown, I would only want him for a right tackle option, not left tackle. And it would depend on what he's looking for in the way of money. I'd love to see us jettison Cherilus out of here, but not at any cost.

As for McNeill, his back problems concern the Hell out of me, and as such if we signed him I'd want him to accept an incentive laden contract that protects the team against his injury problems, but pays him fairly if he stays on the field. Limited bonus money up front, performance incentives rich.

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March 6th, 2012, 3:28 pm
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
I'm hoping Zebrie Sanders falls to the Lions in rd 2 honestly..

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March 25th, 2012, 9:52 am
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Post Re: Offensive Tackles
If the lions want a Tackle at 23 it would likely be Right Tackle/Guard hybrid Cordy Glenn, here is my evaluation:

Positives:
Extraordinary Athlete
uses wide frame to his advantage
- Showed he carries his weight very well
Superior Arm Length
- allows him to be position flexible at G or RT
seems to glide while pass blocking
Does a good job protecting against pass rushing moves
- knows how to deal with swim, club, and spin
strong anchor
- squares up defenders
- very tough to beat
excellant power and leverage in run blocking
- a Mauler
- 31 reps despite arm length shows incredible strength
- dominates once he gets a hold of someone
- long reach with powerful upper body
pulls well - can seal an edge
engulfs defenders at 2nd level
flaws are trumped by elite athlecticism
shows a lot of understanding of defensive schemes

Negatives:
Waist Bender too often - plays hunched over
struggles to pick up blitz
- NFL evaluators believe this is correctable
not quick off the snap
plays too upright at times
Lacks the footwork to play LT in NFL
Like most guards, he has a pretty good spare tire on him
- this causes him trouble with Speedy DE's and eliminates him as a LT


March 25th, 2012, 11:32 am
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