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 Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards.... 
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Post Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
Freep wrote:
Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards instead of bounties
Schwartz: Bounties were out
March 28, 2012

PALM BEACH, Fla. -- As defensive coordinator in Tennessee, Lions coach Jim Schwartz rewarded his players for big hits with painted baseball bats and boxing gloves, tokens of the thumpings they delivered on the field.

Schwartz discontinued that practice before coming to Detroit, but with the cloud of a bounty investigation hanging over the NFL owners meetings this week, he said Tuesday there's "a big difference" between the motivational tools he used and the cash bonuses some New Orleans Saints got for trying to take out opposing players.

"To put people out of the game, that's never been our experience," Schwartz said. "And like I said, I think more people focus more on the exception rather than the rule in the NFL."

The exception came to light weeks ago when the NFL, with its new focus on player safety, revealed that the Saints ran a bounty program in 2009-11 that paid players $1,000 for cart-off hits and $1,500 for knockouts, with payments escalating in the postseason.

Saints coach Sean Payton was suspended one year for trying to cover up the system, his former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams got an indefinite ban for administering and contributing to the bounty pool, and the organization was fined $500,000 and stripped of two draft picks.

Schwartz, who spent two seasons as a defensive assistant under Williams in Tennessee, has not been accused of being a part of any bounty program, though former Indianapolis Colts coach and current NBC analyst Tony Dungy said this month he believes the Titans had a bounty on quarterback Peyton Manning when Schwartz was defensive coordinator.

"I don't have any comment on what Tony Dungy said," Schwartz said Tuesday.

Lions general manager Martin Mayhew said he doesn't believe bounties are prevalent in the NFL and that the Lions "weren't involved in any of that stuff and we didn't have any."

"And I know in my nine years I played in the league, I don't recall there ever being a time when there was money on the line to go hurt somebody, knock somebody out of the game as a player when I played," Mayhew said. "So I think they certainly exist, but I don't think that they're everywhere or every team has them, or it's a real popular thing to do."

Along with bounties, the NFL is cracking down on noncontract incentive programs that reward players for big hits and other big plays, often using funds from player-pooled money for payouts. Owners and coaches must certify in writing annually that no pay-for-performance or bounty programs exist.

Mayhew said in his playing days with the Washington Redskins before the salary cap, players were rewarded with gifts like televisions and stereos for touchdowns, interceptions and other big plays.

"We had rewards that were handed out on Mondays, but they were (for) making plays, not for hitting anybody," Mayhew said. "I don't really recall any for big hits or anything like that. When you had big-time production in the game or you were player of the game, you got something."

Schwartz compared his old incentive system of awarding boxing gloves and bats for big hits to colleges giving out helmet stickers for important plays.

He recalled one game when Titans coaches couldn't give out the big-hit award because the player who delivered it was penalized on the play.

"I think the big hit is always going to be part of the game," Schwartz said. "But the intent is not to injure, the intent is to make a big hit within the rules. Like I said, nobody wants to get a penalty. That doesn't help anybody. It hurts your team rather than helps. But offensive players, the same thing as defensive players, everybody's trying to play a tough, physical game, and I don't think anybody needs any extra encouragement to be able to do that."

Contact Dave Birkett: 313-222-8831 or dbirkett@freepress.com. Follow him on Twitter @freeplions.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120328/S ... f-bounties

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March 28th, 2012, 5:11 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
Like I said... the only thing we're debating here is the "size" of the reward, and the only reason it "grew" in the Saint's locker room was because players refused to take the "reward" and "let it ride" until the pot grew tremendously.

You guys can bash Porter for his comments, but I agree with him. All he said is that he wouldn't call it a "bounty" program. He felt that the term "bounty" was harsh and ridiculous. I agree. He said that they were "just playing football," and it's probably accurate, even if we don't want to hear it. I'm sure many more teams do the very same thing.


March 28th, 2012, 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
The difference was the intent to injure. All football players go out there to hit and hurt, but the intent to injure is worse. The $ reward also violated the salary cap.

Schwartz's system is no different than a game ball. And you can see in his comments that he wouldn't reward if there was a penalty called. Apples and oranges.


March 28th, 2012, 5:39 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
njroar wrote:
The difference was the intent to injure. All football players go out there to hit and hurt, but the intent to injure is worse. The $ reward also violated the salary cap.

Schwartz's system is no different than a game ball. And you can see in his comments that he wouldn't reward if there was a penalty called. Apples and oranges.



So Schwartz's money violates the salary cap too?

Like I said in my other post on the matter - the "intent to injure," IMO is being over-blown. The biggest problem with the Saints program is how open they were with it. It's not hard to imagine a system where "injuries" are simply rewarded as "bigger hits," and I"m sure that's the case in more than one club in the league.


March 28th, 2012, 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
The difference was the intent to injure. All football players go out there to hit and hurt, but the intent to injure is worse. The $ reward also violated the salary cap.

Schwartz's system is no different than a game ball. And you can see in his comments that he wouldn't reward if there was a penalty called. Apples and oranges.



So Schwartz's money violates the salary cap too?

Like I said in my other post on the matter - the "intent to injure," IMO is being over-blown. The biggest problem with the Saints program is how open they were with it. It's not hard to imagine a system where "injuries" are simply rewarded as "bigger hits," and I"m sure that's the case in more than one club in the league.


I don't think the intent to injure is being overblown at all, and it simply can't be overblown. With all the focus and efforts (even as misguided as some of those are) to prevent injuries, the mere notion that the players were being rewarded for knocking players out of the game cannot be tolerated by the league. And I find it highly hypocritical of the players and coaches involved that when a player did get injured on the field, they acted concerned. I'm sure for most players and coaches the concern was genuine. But for those who participated in this "bounty" system, it was all a sham.

It's one thing to try and make a big hit on a guy. If it is a clean hit, there's nothing wrong with it and it's how you get to be a great player. But there was intent to knock a player out of the game, and that means illegal hits and low class play. It means injuring the guy, because that's the easiest way to knock a player out of the game or get him carted off the field. And as I recall, getting the guy carted off the field paid even more than just knocking him out of the game.

The Saints got punished because they were warned, ignored the warnings, and then blatantly lied about it at numerous levels within the organization.

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March 28th, 2012, 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Like I said... the only thing we're debating here is the "size" of the reward, and the only reason it "grew" in the Saint's locker room was because players refused to take the "reward" and "let it ride" until the pot grew tremendously.

You guys can bash Porter for his comments, but I agree with him. All he said is that he wouldn't call it a "bounty" program. He felt that the term "bounty" was harsh and ridiculous. I agree. He said that they were "just playing football," and it's probably accurate, even if we don't want to hear it. I'm sure many more teams do the very same thing.


You still don't get it.

It's the difference between 'incentive' vs 'reward', as well as, the difference between 'playing tough' vs 'intentionally maiming'.

Furthermore, I'm sure many more teams are not doing it and they would still low class & wrong if there were.

Please stop trying to be right on this issue because you're never going to be.

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March 28th, 2012, 6:33 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
LionFan57 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Like I said... the only thing we're debating here is the "size" of the reward, and the only reason it "grew" in the Saint's locker room was because players refused to take the "reward" and "let it ride" until the pot grew tremendously.

You guys can bash Porter for his comments, but I agree with him. All he said is that he wouldn't call it a "bounty" program. He felt that the term "bounty" was harsh and ridiculous. I agree. He said that they were "just playing football," and it's probably accurate, even if we don't want to hear it. I'm sure many more teams do the very same thing.


You still don't get it.

It's the difference between 'incentive' vs 'reward', as well as, the difference between 'playing tough' vs 'intentionally maiming'.

Furthermore, I'm sure many more teams are not doing it and they would still low class & wrong if there were.

Please stop trying to be right on this issue because you're never going to be.


There is no difference between "incentive" and "reward" it's the same damn thing. Just like there's no difference between "bounty" and "incentive" for hitting someone. It's just harsher language, and it's language that the media and the NFL placed on N.O.'s program, it wasn't language that the team was using.

I'll never convince you, that's for sure, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. I'll never convince you that this happens with other teams, because they're sure as hell going to keep it under the rug if it had.


March 28th, 2012, 7:15 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
wjb21ndtown wrote:
LionFan57 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Like I said... the only thing we're debating here is the "size" of the reward, and the only reason it "grew" in the Saint's locker room was because players refused to take the "reward" and "let it ride" until the pot grew tremendously.

You guys can bash Porter for his comments, but I agree with him. All he said is that he wouldn't call it a "bounty" program. He felt that the term "bounty" was harsh and ridiculous. I agree. He said that they were "just playing football," and it's probably accurate, even if we don't want to hear it. I'm sure many more teams do the very same thing.


You still don't get it.

It's the difference between 'incentive' vs 'reward', as well as, the difference between 'playing tough' vs 'intentionally maiming'.

Furthermore, I'm sure many more teams are not doing it and they would still low class & wrong if there were.

Please stop trying to be right on this issue because you're never going to be.


There is no difference between "incentive" and "reward" it's the same damn thing. Just like there's no difference between "bounty" and "incentive" for hitting someone. It's just harsher language, and it's language that the media and the NFL placed on N.O.'s program, it wasn't language that the team was using.

I'll never convince you, that's for sure, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. I'll never convince you that this happens with other teams, because they're sure as hell going to keep it under the rug if it had.



Then you need to work on your command of the English language. An 'incentive' entices you to do something and is offered in advance, while a 'reward' is bestowed upon you after the fact. It's a subtle but important difference. You can wordsmith this all you want but the intent (not the result) is what is at issue here.

Schwartz gave rewards for legal hits only after the game. Williams / Payton offered a financial gain in return for a hit that would cause an injury sufficient enough to take the player off the field. (Without regard as to whether it was a legal hit or not). If you refuse to understand that difference then there's no help for you.

As I said in another thread; Williams & Payton both admit they were entirely wrong! They don't even agree with your take on this!

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March 28th, 2012, 9:05 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
Not to mention if you read the actual documentation about specific incidents there were games where a BOUNTY was specifically placed on certain players. IIRC the BOUNTY for knocking Farve out of that 1 game was something like 5 or 10 grand... not a reward or incentive for a big hit on random player X that pumps up your defense, but premeditated planning dirty play with an attempt to Injure a player to take him out of the game.

The only leg you have to stand on wjb is that other teams do this.. which I am sure a few do (or did) but that doesnt in any way lessen how big of a deal this is that the Saint got caught doing it, had it moderated and controbuted to by their Coach, then lied about it for years until irrefutable evidence came out about it. I don't see how anyone can read all the facts that have come out about this case and still agree with you, so I'm going to chalk it up to your gut reaction says this was overblown.. you've read very little about what actually happened and what the coaches in question have now ADMITTED TO, and you are stubornly arguing the losing side of an argument that almost everyone else in the country (except delusional Saints fans) already realize ended when the Commish brought down the Banhammer.


March 29th, 2012, 12:04 am
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
Even before the punishments were handed out, Payton was expecting 4 games. It was pushed to a year because they lied and covered it up for 2 of the 3 years they were being investigated. Every team had to sign a certified statement that they aren't running a system currently and if they are to dismantle it immediately. Any future penalties will be even more extreme.

As to the rewards... a game ball, bat or boxing gloves don't come close to the $1000 to $1500 bounties and definitely don't approach the $10k bounty that Vilma placed on Farve. And the items weren't cash which violated Salary cap. Cash was important because it bypassed the salary cap in ways that were forbidden. The moneyshot was on film with the player coming to the sideline when Farve was knocked out screaming "Pay me the money!"


March 29th, 2012, 12:40 am
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
wjb21ndtown wrote:
You guys can bash Porter for his comments, but I agree with him. All he said is that he wouldn't call it a "bounty" program. He felt that the term "bounty" was harsh and ridiculous. I agree. He said that they were "just playing football," and it's probably accurate, even if we don't want to hear it. I'm sure many more teams do the very same thing.


Then what exactly would you call it? Let's see...a set amount of money offered (the reward) for knocking a particular player (the criminal) out of a game (arrested), by legal or illegal means (wanted dead or alive) that is being offered PRIOR to the actual event taking place (hanging the wanted poster outside of the saloon before the posse forms). Yep, sure sounds like a BOUNTY system to me.

So....what exactly do you call that? My understanding is that there are people out there who make a living do something similar for the legal system. They are called BOUNTY hunters....not reward hunters, or incentive hunters.

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March 29th, 2012, 8:38 am
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
bounty or no bounty, right or wrong, I'm just hoping that Goodell keeps hurting them

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March 29th, 2012, 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Lions' Jim Schwartz says he used small-scale rewards....
Killwill25 wrote:
bounty or no bounty, right or wrong, I'm just hoping that Goodell keeps hurting them


I hate to admit it, but I do as well. I'm not a big Goodell fan. In fact, I think he's a douche. However, he right about this. I'm happy to see them pay.


March 29th, 2012, 12:38 pm
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