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 Utopia: the fallacy of commune living 
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Post Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I'm considering an article with the above title, and using it to bring some things to light, but thought it might be a better experiment here. So are there any who would agree or associate with the 99% that would care to answer some of these questions?

1. In commune living (aka The Beach) by what set of rules does the group live by?

2. How are these rules established?

3. Who enforces the rules?

4. If you have a Communal Governing Body, how are they brought to power and/or removed

5. How are jobs or duties decided upon?
a. who does the hunting/fishing?
b. who does the harvesting?
c. who does the cooking?
d. who does the cleaning?

6. If you have a Communal Apportionment of Food, land and stuff, who decides upon portion sizes?

7. Who enforces portion size?

8. By what set of laws does the community exist?

9. On what grounds is this law or set of laws based upon?

10. If "truth" is the basis of law, who establishes what's true, since truth is NOW relative and situational?

From recent events of OWS and the Communist Thinking (not name calling here, just giving the mindset a name) that is attempting to shift our way of life in this country, these questions seem to be very pertitent, but not discussed. The OWS or (The Beach) type society appears to want everything thrown into the pot for us all to get our share, but yet that leaves some very big holes to fill. The Communist way of thinking is that everything is thrown into the government pot and then apportioned out by what's fair, except that the governing body or ruling party is not bound by these same rules.

Thus, the ideas we see awash in our streets and public squares are contradictive to what is great about this country.

Anyway, I'm curious, as one who doesn't support the 99% or the CP, as to how these questions would be answered. I am not saying that I have answers, I'm just curious to see the other side.

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 10th, 2012, 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Didn't Jesus and his disciples pretty much live as a commune? Perhaps the bible can shed some light on your questions. :wink:

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April 10th, 2012, 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
What is "The Beach"?
Are you willing to answer your own questions in your, personal "Utopia" (that is, the way you want to see the World run)? That might, perhaps, be a good place to start.

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April 10th, 2012, 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Pablo wrote:
Didn't Jesus and his disciples pretty much live as a commune? Perhaps the bible can shed some light on your questions. :wink:
Zing! :cheers:

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April 10th, 2012, 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
TheRealWags wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Didn't Jesus and his disciples pretty much live as a commune? Perhaps the bible can shed some light on your questions. :wink:
Zing! :cheers:


Well I know who got the fish at least! angel8.gif

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April 10th, 2012, 4:01 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I think people really misrepresented the message behind OWS... To me it was more about the disproportional influence these corporations have and despite their heavy involvement in the financial collapse they didn't seem to have to pay much of the price... I think the best sound bites were the anti capitalist ones so that is how it got labeled... It was just another example of how this country likes to make caricatures of anyone with an opposing idea... Just like how the tea partiers were all racists and spreading a racist agenda... It's ridiculous and I'm beyond tired of it...


April 10th, 2012, 4:30 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
I think people really misrepresented the message behind OWS... To me it was more about the disproportional influence these corporations have and despite their heavy involvement in the financial collapse they didn't seem to have to pay much of the price... I think the best sound bites were the anti capitalist ones so that is how it got labeled... It was just another example of how this country likes to make caricatures of anyone with an opposing idea... Just like how the tea partiers were all racists and spreading a racist agenda... It's ridiculous and I'm beyond tired of it...


The problem is, they didn't have a clear message. 90% of the people involved in the "movement" wanted "free stuff" or "re-distribution of stuff" (another way of saying that they wanted what someone else worked for. No leader stood up and got behind it, and the "movement" ran around headless running amok and disgracing and de-legitimizing itself.



That said, if someone wants to start a movement that claims that corporations have too much influence, or that lobbyists have too much power, I'll get behind it... Just don't expect too much coverage or the movement to take hold, because our news outlets are... big corporations...


April 10th, 2012, 5:11 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
First: I am not looking for this to be an argument, and I'm trying to keep this objective.
Second: I don't agree with OWS, and stated that already, so the objective will be hard
Third: I would be willing to answer my own questions, but they would closely resemble what we already had originally so I don't see how it could be a good discussion.
Fourth: Jesus did NOT live in a commune, as much as current day Rabbi's instruct their prodigy's. You'd need to understand the system for it to make sense.
Fifth: The Beach: is a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio from a few years back, based around a commune in Thailand.


I seriously thought this could be an interesting "experiment" or conversation, if it was given half a chance. I'm not interested in slinging mud, as much as I'd like to refine or reveal the movements goals.

Here is my point of view:

Historically, Communism as illustrated by the former Russia, best illustrated what was wrong with the Utopia Society. The dream as I understand it, was that everything would be equal, no one would own anything, all would have access as needed. However, it never fared well because those in power were the distributors of stuff as they needed or wanted.

Our society at it's best allowed the common man the right and freedom to pursue all that he/she could be. If you made millions by your own sweat and ingenuity, you got to keep it. This allowed for business to develop and fail, and those who were strong prevailed. Those who didn't got the experience and eventually got to succeed somewhere else. There have been people who were taken advantage of along the way, and I don't agree with that, but it's in our history. Here is an article I heard about and tracked down for you, concerning if "Socialism Works."

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show ... alism_work

From what I understand the 99% would like to redistribute the wealth of the 1% to make it fair. However, the 99% have not put in the time, the blood, or sweat to develop their fortunes. So those who would provide the jobs, and careers of the 99% no longer have any incentive to push that hard, because any gains they make will only be redistributed.

How many of you remember the Bread Lines of the Soviet Union? The Big Government system will always benefit the Government and those who work for it, but standard citizens must live off the scraps, and it's always middle of the road or mediocre supplies. Look at the way the Native Americans were supplied, substandard foods, and materials. Look at the present healthcare systems of the VA, although I assume they've gotten better. Look at the food stamp programs and government housing. You have one set of standards that all must meet, but it is impossible to enforce. So someone always has advantage because they know the system, while others suffer.

I hope this helps illustrate my mind set in going into this, and I hope that others will give it a chance to see if we can reveal why the 99% won't work in a redistribution mentality. In fact, I'm thinking it is a distraction at the very least and will become a full blown violent fracture in this society.

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 10th, 2012, 6:18 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Oh and Pablo, Jesus gave thanks for it, then broke it, and the disciples dished it out, before they collected the twelve baskets of extra fish and bread. So they didn't partake until afterwards, which means that 5000 men got to eat, the women and children were not counted as the society of that time did not recognize the worth of women.

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 10th, 2012, 6:21 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I think you can have a successful commune, but you have to have the right kind of people. There are some people (mostly hippies) who are OK with what comes with communal living. For everyone else (myself included) it doesn't work.


April 10th, 2012, 7:44 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I have a friend and a brother in law who are both leaning if not members of the 99, and both are very Liberal in the LIBERtarian sort o f way. Both think we should have the right to do and say as we please, on an extreme sense of the Libertarian platform. But a recent television show highlighted what is wrong with the OWS and 99% way of thinking.

The t.v. show was a group of 10 individuals taken into an extreme environment and made to survive off of Caveman tools and living conditions. You had one group who became hunters, and one group who chose to sleep because living was just too hard. Those who hunted became REALLY tired of providing for those who did nothing and in fighting began. In a communal setting, the same emotions would be faced and have to be overcome.

But if you magnify this by the size of a society, what you will have is ANARCHY. People who can and will survive off the land will and those who can't will form raiding parties. Innocent, wanting to survive on their own will be chewed up and absorbed, destroyed, or become part of one group or the other. Katrina illustrated this with it's aftermath. The crisis was horrific, and what developed? Mob mentality. People used to being cared for by programs became extremely lawless and formed raiding parties. They didn't stop with food which was understandable, instead they grabbed any and everything they could, because they could. My point being that, in order for their to be a Utopia, a set of CONCRETE rules would need to be established, governed, and regulated without deviation. However, laws not based upon a bedrock of truth, are situational and relative to the individual and therefore subject to change.

Think about it: Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so that is why we had the 3 branch system for our own form of government that is being overstepped or sidestepped by this regime. Details would need to be established, adhered to, and agreed upon. But it takes strong leadership, and integrity on all parts, and this is hard to develop and foster, outside of a common belief. (I'm not trying to push this into religion because religion DOES NOT represent these traits very well.) I am saying that a common belief of how people would need to act and behave all the time.

Am I making any sense? Because the impression I'm getting from OWS is that it's a free for all that is being exploited by well established organizations who are fully intent on bringing down the US as it stands as a nation. The boots on the ground want to bang their drums, smoke their dope, have their sex, and keep up the party, while the organizations want to cause problems and issues within the structures of our government, eventually leading to over throw, or continued Obama dissolving of the Constitution and our way of life. Meanwhile on the other side of the coin, you have a group of people who do not agree with Socialism, Communism, or Hippism, and so are getting very angry that this is being forced upon them and their lives, under the auspices of the 1st amendment and more. The nation is splitting more and more right down the middle, and now throwing in the crisis in Florida and Missouri and you are developing a race war. This nation is barely clinging together and has become a powder keg, and all of this has NOT BEEN inherited by this regime.

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 10th, 2012, 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
I think people really misrepresented the message behind OWS... To me it was more about the disproportional influence these corporations have and despite their heavy involvement in the financial collapse they didn't seem to have to pay much of the price... I think the best sound bites were the anti capitalist ones so that is how it got labeled... It was just another example of how this country likes to make caricatures of anyone with an opposing idea... Just like how the tea partiers were all racists and spreading a racist agenda... It's ridiculous and I'm beyond tired of it...


The problem is, they didn't have a clear message. 90% of the people involved in the "movement" wanted "free stuff" or "re-distribution of stuff" (another way of saying that they wanted what someone else worked for. No leader stood up and got behind it, and the "movement" ran around headless running amok and disgracing and de-legitimizing itself.



That said, if someone wants to start a movement that claims that corporations have too much influence, or that lobbyists have too much power, I'll get behind it... Just don't expect too much coverage or the movement to take hold, because our news outlets are... big corporations...


Interesting take wjb... This is taken directly from OWS' website in the about us section:

"#ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations."

Could it be that you that instead of not getting any coverage the strategy of these large corporations was to smear the movement by focusing on the fringe radical people who participated in the the movement? To me the fact that people keep saying that they didn't know what their message was is just proof of that. If you look at what some of the OWS movement has done instead of the sound bites this purpose is pretty clear. For instince, it was an OWS movement that pushed back against Bank of America's debit card fees last year and it is OWS that is standing up to a company called Agrisol and their shady dealings with Iowa State University where they were planning on moving an entire village of African refugees off of their land.

I'm not saying that there isn't a portion of this movement who want "free stuff." I just think that it wasn't what it was organized for and I don't think its where the real power of the movement is.


April 11th, 2012, 5:36 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle: Concerning the BOA fees that OWS pushed back on, do you actually believe these fees went away? Or did they pull that back, only to put them somewhere else? I'm not saying they did, nor am I saying they will, I just have difficulty believing that BOA is going to suspend fees because that's what they've been told to do.

The thing that concerns me about OWS is it's tendency towards violence. It is the prototypical mob violence incubator, and it won't take much to set it off. This isn't the 60's where our Society had different standards and belief systems, (not all of them good). Civil Disobedience in a non-violent fashion was radical. Much like chewing gum, talking in class were the bad behaviors of the day in schools of that time, now it's rape, drugs, violence of all sorts.

Without a CORE leadership structure, and without proper enforcement on all levels, you have nothing more than a gaggle of people who are assembling because this is the biggest free for all party going on. If it's a movement, it is the bowel movement of this society, and it appears to be diarhea at that. The US has degraded from a bastion of freedom and land of opportunity to a 2nd or 3rd world nation coming apart at the seams.

You also have groups like ACORN and CPA moving in to take advantage of the furvor, and passion of the misguided crowd. Using that passion and manipulating it to provide support and the boots on the ground for a corrupt thinking and actions.

It falls back into the lie of a Utopia, without the structure and bedrock laws and rights of a nation, the nation can not stand. Those who choose to produce wind up providing for those who choose to take, and eventually, the producers get tired of producing for the lazy, and stop producing themselves.

It's only a matter of time before we topple over, and it's only being assisted by this leadership, and OWS. We are the last brick in the wall, and we (the American People) really piss off people because we are SO stubborn about our freedom. The world wants us to hurry up and fall in line with the rest of them, and there are those of us in this country that continue to say "Don't Tread on ME!" In spite of the government voice box agencies: CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, CSPAN and so on....

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 11th, 2012, 8:08 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Murtyle: Concerning the BOA fees that OWS pushed back on, do you actually believe these fees went away? Or did they pull that back, only to put them somewhere else? I'm not saying they did, nor am I saying they will, I just have difficulty believing that BOA is going to suspend fees because that's what they've been told to do.


Why? You don't think that banks charge unnecessary fees? They didn't do it because they "were told to"... They did it because members of OWS organized consumers to leave the bank in droves...

Quote:
The thing that concerns me about OWS is it's tendency towards violence. It is the prototypical mob violence incubator, and it won't take much to set it off. This isn't the 60's where our Society had different standards and belief systems, (not all of them good). Civil Disobedience in a non-violent fashion was radical. Much like chewing gum, talking in class were the bad behaviors of the day in schools of that time, now it's rape, drugs, violence of all sorts.


I guess it's still a time honored tradition for preceding generations to talk about how they were so much more well behaved and the youth of today are out of control... I wasn't alive back then, but I'm pretty sure I the demonstrations in those days were FAR more violent anything we've seen recently... Seriously, you're trying to tell me we have a worse drug problem now than we did back then? I really hope I'm reading this wrong...

This kind of thing drives me crazy... My mom told me a story about how when they were kids they threw fireworks under a police car... All that happened to them was they got a ride home in the police car and she suffered the wrath of my grandparents... If that happened today, the kids would be plastered all over the news and added to the terrorist watch list... Someone I am very close with told me they were raped by their pastor back then when they were a kid... When they told their parents, their reaction was to keep it quiet... It was a different time... When things like that happened, people didn't talk about it because of these societal norms... I for one am glad we have progressed past that...

Quote:
Without a CORE leadership structure, and without proper enforcement on all levels, you have nothing more than a gaggle of people who are assembling because this is the biggest free for all party going on. If it's a movement, it is the bowel movement of this society, and it appears to be diarhea at that. The US has degraded from a bastion of freedom and land of opportunity to a 2nd or 3rd world nation coming apart at the seams.


So the way to get to freedom is by core leadership and enforcement? That sounds less free to me... This country is coming apart because people care more about their political agenda than their country... They refuse to believe that maybe just maybe there is more than one way of solving a problem and if it isn't their way, then it's destroying the "bastion of freedom" that is our country...

Quote:
You also have groups like ACORN and CPA moving in to take advantage of the furvor, and passion of the misguided crowd. Using that passion and manipulating it to provide support and the boots on the ground for a corrupt thinking and actions.


How?

Quote:
It falls back into the lie of a Utopia, without the structure and bedrock laws and rights of a nation, the nation can not stand. Those who choose to produce wind up providing for those who choose to take, and eventually, the producers get tired of producing for the lazy, and stop producing themselves.


I agree... Communism doesn't work... I think you would be surprised about how many people on the left agree with you... Capitalism works... HOWEVER... In capitalism, by definition, there are going to be "winners" and "losers"... The question becomes what do we do with the people who for whatever reason, find themselves at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder...

Another thing is that it is a flat out lie that people will stop "producing" if they're taxed more... People who are producing aren't going to stop because people living off food stamps, live in section 8 housing and get $650/month are perceived to be living high on the hog... Just like those who make over $1,000,000 per year are somehow going to pack up shop because they're going to lose 2% of of that with a tax hike? I honestly don't understand this argument..

Quote:
It's only a matter of time before we topple over, and it's only being assisted by this leadership, and OWS. We are the last brick in the wall, and we (the American People) really piss off people because we are SO stubborn about our freedom. The world wants us to hurry up and fall in line with the rest of them, and there are those of us in this country that continue to say "Don't Tread on ME!" In spite of the government voice box agencies: CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, CSPAN and so on....


I'm surprised not to see FOX on your list, who read out loud a set of bullet points given to them BY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS on how to marginalize the improving economy...

Anyway, how are we less free? Today, I can go do whatever I want and as long as I don't harm anyone else, I'm completely free to do that... What am I missing? What are all of these freedoms that Obama has taken away?


April 11th, 2012, 10:31 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Murtyle: Concerning the BOA fees that OWS pushed back on, do you actually believe these fees went away? Or did they pull that back, only to put them somewhere else? I'm not saying they did, nor am I saying they will, I just have difficulty believing that BOA is going to suspend fees because that's what they've been told to do.


Why? You don't think that banks charge unnecessary fees? They didn't do it because they "were told to"... They did it because members of OWS organized consumers to leave the bank in droves...

Quote:
The thing that concerns me about OWS is it's tendency towards violence. It is the prototypical mob violence incubator, and it won't take much to set it off. This isn't the 60's where our Society had different standards and belief systems, (not all of them good). Civil Disobedience in a non-violent fashion was radical. Much like chewing gum, talking in class were the bad behaviors of the day in schools of that time, now it's rape, drugs, violence of all sorts.


I guess it's still a time honored tradition for preceding generations to talk about how they were so much more well behaved and the youth of today are out of control... I wasn't alive back then, but I'm pretty sure I the demonstrations in those days were FAR more violent anything we've seen recently... Seriously, you're trying to tell me we have a worse drug problem now than we did back then? I really hope I'm reading this wrong...

This kind of thing drives me crazy... My mom told me a story about how when they were kids they threw fireworks under a police car... All that happened to them was they got a ride home in the police car and she suffered the wrath of my grandparents... If that happened today, the kids would be plastered all over the news and added to the terrorist watch list... Someone I am very close with told me they were raped by their pastor back then when they were a kid... When they told their parents, their reaction was to keep it quiet... It was a different time... When things like that happened, people didn't talk about it because of these societal norms... I for one am glad we have progressed past that...

Quote:
Without a CORE leadership structure, and without proper enforcement on all levels, you have nothing more than a gaggle of people who are assembling because this is the biggest free for all party going on. If it's a movement, it is the bowel movement of this society, and it appears to be diarhea at that. The US has degraded from a bastion of freedom and land of opportunity to a 2nd or 3rd world nation coming apart at the seams.


So the way to get to freedom is by core leadership and enforcement? That sounds less free to me... This country is coming apart because people care more about their political agenda than their country... They refuse to believe that maybe just maybe there is more than one way of solving a problem and if it isn't their way, then it's destroying the "bastion of freedom" that is our country...

Quote:
You also have groups like ACORN and CPA moving in to take advantage of the furvor, and passion of the misguided crowd. Using that passion and manipulating it to provide support and the boots on the ground for a corrupt thinking and actions.


How?

Quote:
It falls back into the lie of a Utopia, without the structure and bedrock laws and rights of a nation, the nation can not stand. Those who choose to produce wind up providing for those who choose to take, and eventually, the producers get tired of producing for the lazy, and stop producing themselves.


I agree... Communism doesn't work... I think you would be surprised about how many people on the left agree with you... Capitalism works... HOWEVER... In capitalism, by definition, there are going to be "winners" and "losers"... The question becomes what do we do with the people who for whatever reason, find themselves at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder...

Another thing is that it is a flat out lie that people will stop "producing" if they're taxed more... People who are producing aren't going to stop because people living off food stamps, live in section 8 housing and get $650/month are perceived to be living high on the hog... Just like those who make over $1,000,000 per year are somehow going to pack up shop because they're going to lose 2% of of that with a tax hike? I honestly don't understand this argument..

Quote:
It's only a matter of time before we topple over, and it's only being assisted by this leadership, and OWS. We are the last brick in the wall, and we (the American People) really piss off people because we are SO stubborn about our freedom. The world wants us to hurry up and fall in line with the rest of them, and there are those of us in this country that continue to say "Don't Tread on ME!" In spite of the government voice box agencies: CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, CSPAN and so on....


I'm surprised not to see FOX on your list, who read out loud a set of bullet points given to them BY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS on how to marginalize the improving economy...

Anyway, how are we less free? Today, I can go do whatever I want and as long as I don't harm anyone else, I'm completely free to do that... What am I missing? What are all of these freedoms that Obama has taken away?


Bolded the part where the viewpoint has never made sense. Look at the poverty line as water. Those below it need to be lifted above it so they don't drown, but the left has them convinced that the way to do that is to drag the people that can help closer to you. By doing that, both suffer. What they need is a lifevest to get above so they can tread that water and climb out. Its a control issue. The left is dependant on the lower class and minority vote. If they keep them under, they can argue that they need more rescue workers to help the drowning, and we keep spending more and more until everyone drowns. The idea that the american dream doesn't work is meant to stifle people from even trying. It works, but requires hard work. Its easier to convince people that they need help.

OWS is convinced that they need help, and they aren't interested in helping themselves to get it.


April 11th, 2012, 10:50 am
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