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 Utopia: the fallacy of commune living 
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
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Location: Hollywood, FL
Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
njroar wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Murtyle: Concerning the BOA fees that OWS pushed back on, do you actually believe these fees went away? Or did they pull that back, only to put them somewhere else? I'm not saying they did, nor am I saying they will, I just have difficulty believing that BOA is going to suspend fees because that's what they've been told to do.


Why? You don't think that banks charge unnecessary fees? They didn't do it because they "were told to"... They did it because members of OWS organized consumers to leave the bank in droves...

Quote:
The thing that concerns me about OWS is it's tendency towards violence. It is the prototypical mob violence incubator, and it won't take much to set it off. This isn't the 60's where our Society had different standards and belief systems, (not all of them good). Civil Disobedience in a non-violent fashion was radical. Much like chewing gum, talking in class were the bad behaviors of the day in schools of that time, now it's rape, drugs, violence of all sorts.


I guess it's still a time honored tradition for preceding generations to talk about how they were so much more well behaved and the youth of today are out of control... I wasn't alive back then, but I'm pretty sure I the demonstrations in those days were FAR more violent anything we've seen recently... Seriously, you're trying to tell me we have a worse drug problem now than we did back then? I really hope I'm reading this wrong...

This kind of thing drives me crazy... My mom told me a story about how when they were kids they threw fireworks under a police car... All that happened to them was they got a ride home in the police car and she suffered the wrath of my grandparents... If that happened today, the kids would be plastered all over the news and added to the terrorist watch list... Someone I am very close with told me they were raped by their pastor back then when they were a kid... When they told their parents, their reaction was to keep it quiet... It was a different time... When things like that happened, people didn't talk about it because of these societal norms... I for one am glad we have progressed past that...

Quote:
Without a CORE leadership structure, and without proper enforcement on all levels, you have nothing more than a gaggle of people who are assembling because this is the biggest free for all party going on. If it's a movement, it is the bowel movement of this society, and it appears to be diarhea at that. The US has degraded from a bastion of freedom and land of opportunity to a 2nd or 3rd world nation coming apart at the seams.


So the way to get to freedom is by core leadership and enforcement? That sounds less free to me... This country is coming apart because people care more about their political agenda than their country... They refuse to believe that maybe just maybe there is more than one way of solving a problem and if it isn't their way, then it's destroying the "bastion of freedom" that is our country...

Quote:
You also have groups like ACORN and CPA moving in to take advantage of the furvor, and passion of the misguided crowd. Using that passion and manipulating it to provide support and the boots on the ground for a corrupt thinking and actions.


How?

Quote:
It falls back into the lie of a Utopia, without the structure and bedrock laws and rights of a nation, the nation can not stand. Those who choose to produce wind up providing for those who choose to take, and eventually, the producers get tired of producing for the lazy, and stop producing themselves.


I agree... Communism doesn't work... I think you would be surprised about how many people on the left agree with you... Capitalism works... HOWEVER... In capitalism, by definition, there are going to be "winners" and "losers"... The question becomes what do we do with the people who for whatever reason, find themselves at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder...

Another thing is that it is a flat out lie that people will stop "producing" if they're taxed more... People who are producing aren't going to stop because people living off food stamps, live in section 8 housing and get $650/month are perceived to be living high on the hog... Just like those who make over $1,000,000 per year are somehow going to pack up shop because they're going to lose 2% of of that with a tax hike? I honestly don't understand this argument..

Quote:
It's only a matter of time before we topple over, and it's only being assisted by this leadership, and OWS. We are the last brick in the wall, and we (the American People) really piss off people because we are SO stubborn about our freedom. The world wants us to hurry up and fall in line with the rest of them, and there are those of us in this country that continue to say "Don't Tread on ME!" In spite of the government voice box agencies: CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, CSPAN and so on....


I'm surprised not to see FOX on your list, who read out loud a set of bullet points given to them BY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS on how to marginalize the improving economy...

Anyway, how are we less free? Today, I can go do whatever I want and as long as I don't harm anyone else, I'm completely free to do that... What am I missing? What are all of these freedoms that Obama has taken away?


Bolded the part where the viewpoint has never made sense. Look at the poverty line as water. Those below it need to be lifted above it so they don't drown, but the left has them convinced that the way to do that is to drag the people that can help closer to you. By doing that, both suffer. What they need is a lifevest to get above so they can tread that water and climb out. Its a control issue. The left is dependant on the lower class and minority vote. If they keep them under, they can argue that they need more rescue workers to help the drowning, and we keep spending more and more until everyone drowns. The idea that the american dream doesn't work is meant to stifle people from even trying. It works, but requires hard work. Its easier to convince people that they need help.

OWS is convinced that they need help, and they aren't interested in helping themselves to get it.


Who argues that the american dream doesn't work? Do you REALLY believe politicians are trying to their constituents down? To an independent voter that sounds just as ridiculous as the Bush regime planning 911 and knowingly lying to the public about WMDs in Iraq... I just don't think that is the case at all...

I do think there needs to be reform on the way we do it... I don't think it works as well as it could as it is now... I think it should do more to motivate than to coddle... Maybe after 6 months you have to have SOME sort of job or be enrolled in some sort of educational program to continue to receive the benefits...

For the most part, I think the politicians are trying to do what is in the best interest of their constituents... However, I think they are terrible at communicating their point (Its easier to sling mud and make a caricature of your opponent) and I think they run into a lot of resistance from special interests... In fact I know that's the case... One of my best friends is on the staff of a republican congressman and have told me some of the stuff these corporations do to try and pressure congressman their way... It's terrible and I don't know how I, as a politician, would react to that type of scenario... There's no easy answer...

For a group that doesn't have a message, leader and direction, you guys sure do have a handle on what you think they're about... I disagree that they're convinced they need help... I think the core of the movement is about expressing our power as consumers to influence private business (because we have no other recourse with them) and express their displeasure with special interests running government... That is what is stated on their website and that is what I've heard from every intelligent member of theirs that I've heard speak has said...


April 11th, 2012, 11:39 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
Interesting take wjb... This is taken directly from OWS' website in the about us section:

"#ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations."

Could it be that you that instead of not getting any coverage the strategy of these large corporations was to smear the movement by focusing on the fringe radical people who participated in the the movement? To me the fact that people keep saying that they didn't know what their message was is just proof of that. If you look at what some of the OWS movement has done instead of the sound bites this purpose is pretty clear. For instince, it was an OWS movement that pushed back against Bank of America's debit card fees last year and it is OWS that is standing up to a company called Agrisol and their shady dealings with Iowa State University where they were planning on moving an entire village of African refugees off of their land.

I'm not saying that there isn't a portion of this movement who want "free stuff." I just think that it wasn't what it was organized for and I don't think its where the real power of the movement is.


You claim that the OWS crowd "got the BoA fee pushed back," but the real crux of who pushed it back were BoA customers (I really don't think many of those people actually had BoA accounts, or any bank account for that matter, unless their parents put $300 a week in it for them).

I could understand your point, if I didn't 1) see it first hand at various "OWS conventions" 2) the Liberal media was BEGGING for someone to take hold of the "movement" and organize it into something, and 3) I feel like the media did do a pretty good job of covering it, but couldn't find anything to say but bad about the damn thing.

What you're SAYING the "movement's message" is/was differs dramatically to what the PARTICIPANTS in the "movement" were doing. What was the movement? Allegedly it was organized and paid for by George Soros and Co., they put out "the message," but the "occupiers" had a much different message. If someone at the top says the message is X, but 90% of the people in the movement (the real people that MAKE UP the movement) say it's y, what is the actual message? I contend it's that of the 90% that wanted "free" stuff, or redistribution of "other people's stuff."


April 11th, 2012, 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle,

Thanks for posting your perspective on the BOA thing, I didn't understand where you were coming from. However, I do thing that BOA and any financial institution will continue to charge fees, they will just add them somewhere else.

I think NJ's comment about the water line is pretty close to reality. I work in Gov. Sub Housing and I see the reality day in day out. What I see is an under educated group of people who are using the system as their means of survival. Like what was said, work is hard and it's easier to put the hand out.

The government subsidizes housing, food, medical care, utilities, earned income per child, and so why would someone need to work. Now mix in the SSI capability that someone claims a hardship based upon "medical" reasoning and they get a check, OR the children get a check because of an absent father. It's not mansion living, but it is living, and more often than not it is a standard with which this segment of society is all to familiar with, and completly understands.

Think back to the movie Cinderella Man, were the Russell Crowe had to go to the governmnet office to receive his "portion." He takes it and then when he wins his fight goes and pays it back, much to the surprise of the teller. Or how about the "Legend of Bagger Vance" the young boy is humiliated by his father the street sweeper, and almost hates his dad for what he's doing. Except that Bagger brings reality into perspective that his father is WORKING for what they have, as compared to standing in a line receiving charity and becoming accustomed to it.

You asked me a question about leadership and enforcement and I was not meaning that we needed another committee or anything. What I was trying to show is that a true Utopian society where all have power and it is dispersed evenly is not obtainable. Someone will always have to be in power, or they will take it by force. Since there is a structure to community, regulating it according to how the founding fathers intended has been the best way so far. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT WE DIDN'T HURT PEOPLE OR TAKE ADVANTAGE ALONG THE WAY. But giving people the freedom to live and operate as they are able within the set rules of community is fine. But when the rules become situational or relative, then it's anarchy.

Please don't feel that I'm attacking you, as I am not. I have clearly stated that I do not agree with OWS, but I do want to see from their perspective. That's why I asked.

As for ACORN and Comm Party USA they are devisive in their intent. They promote and agenda that speaks equality, but does not promote it. Pick any Communist Party in the world, which one is actually good for it's people? Acorn has already been exposed on several occasions for the work they are doing, I don't think that needs to be revisited.

In back tracking, I don't recall seeing a whole lot of violence from MLK and the movements they had in Mobile, and other places in the South. They were attacked, but they didn't go on the attack. That would be a model I was suggesting.

One of many struggles I have with OWS is that they attack the "1%" as if they are evil people because they've made a lot of money, or have undue influence. I heard today a phrase that was kicked back and forth some time ago. Trickle down economics.

Those that have industry or idea, provide jobs for those of us who wish to work, and then we go buy, eat, and live accordingly. Those on top make money and continue to grow, those below continue to make money and grow, and have the right to become the 1% themselves if they have the ideas or are willing to struggle for them. The bottom percentage of people who have learned to exist on the system will always demand more and provide little except appetite, and wants. We can not wash our hands of them by any means, but we can stop the process of making Government Subsidies a lifestyle. Government hands out money because it is what it has, and it's easier. Teaching and intervening is messy and difficult work. It is work that used to be done by many churches back in the day, but was taken away by the government.

I have programs and ideas for restoring America that will probably never see the light of day, unless the Lord wants it too. But that doesn't mean I can' t make an impact where I'm at. So that's what I try to do, not win them all, just one at a time.

Thanks for being willing to share....

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 11th, 2012, 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Quote:
Could it be that you that instead of not getting any coverage the strategy of these large corporations was to smear the movement by focusing on the fringe radical people who participated in the the movement? To me the fact that people keep saying that they didn't know what their message was is just proof of that. If you look at what some of the OWS movement has done instead of the sound bites this purpose is pretty clear. For instince, it was an OWS movement that pushed back against Bank of America's debit card fees last year



wow...Thanks OWS...I didnt realize that in order to avoid REDICULOUS Bank fees (that happen every day) was to pile a bunch or unorganized people together to do nothing for days on end.

Here I was thinking that all people had to do was leave these stupid institutions and join the non profit credit unions that dont charge those rediculous fees. silly me and choosing personal freedom of choice. I shoulda gone mob mentality! i am so unamerican.

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April 11th, 2012, 5:31 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
wjb21ndtown wrote:
You claim that the OWS crowd "got the BoA fee pushed back," but the real crux of who pushed it back were BoA customers (I really don't think many of those people actually had BoA accounts, or any bank account for that matter, unless their parents put $300 a week in it for them).


And see this is what I mean... You make the whole movement into a caricature... The thing is, if you paid attention, there were lots of different people that made up OWS (not just the ones in the occupations)... I'm sure plenty of them were educated and had bank accounts...

Quote:
I could understand your point, if I didn't 1) see it first hand at various "OWS conventions" 2) the Liberal media was BEGGING for someone to take hold of the "movement" and organize it into something, and 3) I feel like the media did do a pretty good job of covering it, but couldn't find anything to say but bad about the damn thing.


So in this case, you think that they did a good job of covering OWS and couldn't find anything good to say about it... However, THE thing they all agreed upon is unfair corporate influence and that is something that you said yourself you don't trust the media to cover fairly... So why do you trust them in this case?

All I'm saying is that you are well versed in what the fringe and the people who jumped in on the act were saying, but the one core thing that they started out to accomplish you hadn't heard before... It should give you pause that's all...

Quote:
What you're SAYING the "movement's message" is/was differs dramatically to what the PARTICIPANTS in the "movement" were doing. What was the movement? Allegedly it was organized and paid for by George Soros and Co., they put out "the message," but the "occupiers" had a much different message. If someone at the top says the message is X, but 90% of the people in the movement (the real people that MAKE UP the movement) say it's y, what is the actual message? I contend it's that of the 90% that wanted "free" stuff, or redistribution of "other people's stuff."


There is no denying that there were a substantial amount of people who wanted to get rid of our capitalist system... From what I saw however they jumped in on the backs of OWS... Just like Michael Moore and Cornel West did... No doubt it gave these people a platform to spread their message and it's sad... It really was a wasted opportunity in my opinion and they would have been much better served if they stuck with their message and had more organization... They would have likely been more effective...


April 11th, 2012, 5:37 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
regularjoe12 wrote:
Quote:
Could it be that you that instead of not getting any coverage the strategy of these large corporations was to smear the movement by focusing on the fringe radical people who participated in the the movement? To me the fact that people keep saying that they didn't know what their message was is just proof of that. If you look at what some of the OWS movement has done instead of the sound bites this purpose is pretty clear. For instince, it was an OWS movement that pushed back against Bank of America's debit card fees last year



wow...Thanks OWS...I didnt realize that in order to avoid REDICULOUS Bank fees (that happen every day) was to pile a bunch or unorganized people together to do nothing for days on end.

Here I was thinking that all people had to do was leave these stupid institutions and join the non profit credit unions that dont charge those rediculous fees. silly me and choosing personal freedom of choice. I shoulda gone mob mentality! i am so unamerican.


:roll:

Way to contribute to the childishness that has become all political conversation in this country...

And if YOU do this, what message does it send? What does it change? It saves you money, but that is it...

What I was really hoping for from this entire OWS thing is that people would realize that if we as consumers can dictate to these corporations... We are the only ones who can... The government should be limited in what it can tell a private business can do... But we as American consumers have the most influence over these things... Tomorrow, if this country's consumers decided that we aren't going to buy anything unless it's made in this country, there would be manufacturing plants starting up in no time... I mean don't buy a thing unless it is absolutely necessary that comes from another country... BUT we won't do that, cause we like our cheap toys and no one has enough will power to go without something anymore... So off we go... Complaining for the sake of complaining without realizing we are the answer... Oh well...


April 11th, 2012, 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Murtyle,

Thanks for posting your perspective on the BOA thing, I didn't understand where you were coming from. However, I do thing that BOA and any financial institution will continue to charge fees, they will just add them somewhere else.


Of course they will... And what check do we have against them charging unfair fees? Only our power as consumers to go elsewhere...

Quote:
I think NJ's comment about the water line is pretty close to reality. I work in Gov. Sub Housing and I see the reality day in day out. What I see is an under educated group of people who are using the system as their means of survival. Like what was said, work is hard and it's easier to put the hand out.

The government subsidizes housing, food, medical care, utilities, earned income per child, and so why would someone need to work. Now mix in the SSI capability that someone claims a hardship based upon "medical" reasoning and they get a check, OR the children get a check because of an absent father. It's not mansion living, but it is living, and more often than not it is a standard with which this segment of society is all to familiar with, and completly understands.


My DI used to have a saying, there's always that 10%... Its true in any society... I just think it's the wrong thing to focus on... There are always going to be people that will game the system no matter how you structure the incentives...

Quote:
Think back to the movie Cinderella Man, were the Russell Crowe had to go to the governmnet office to receive his "portion." He takes it and then when he wins his fight goes and pays it back, much to the surprise of the teller. Or how about the "Legend of Bagger Vance" the young boy is humiliated by his father the street sweeper, and almost hates his dad for what he's doing. Except that Bagger brings reality into perspective that his father is WORKING for what they have, as compared to standing in a line receiving charity and becoming accustomed to it.


These are nice stories, but if there is no work there is no work... There is always going to be a % of people who aren't working... Full employment is considered what 6% unemployed? That's 18 million people... What do you do with those people? We as the wealthiest society in the history of the world should have some sort of safety net for these people... What that should be is debatable and I'm open for better suggestions than the current system we have...

This is a world economy now and a lot of American's are struggling to keep our standard of living because of it... I'm studying to be an accountant and there is a movement in America to go to International Financial Reporting Standards... I'm slightly afraid that if we do go to IFRS it's going to open the flood gates to people from other developing countries to come here and work for half my salary like what is happening to computer engineers...

Quote:
You asked me a question about leadership and enforcement and I was not meaning that we needed another committee or anything. What I was trying to show is that a true Utopian society where all have power and it is dispersed evenly is not obtainable. Someone will always have to be in power, or they will take it by force. Since there is a structure to community, regulating it according to how the founding fathers intended has been the best way so far. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT WE DIDN'T HURT PEOPLE OR TAKE ADVANTAGE ALONG THE WAY. But giving people the freedom to live and operate as they are able within the set rules of community is fine. But when the rules become situational or relative, then it's anarchy.


I agree that the utopian society you outline isn't possible... I don't think most reasonable people would disagree... I still don't see how the country is coming apart in the way you describe though... OWS was a movement to unite people who felt they were getting the short end of the stick...

Quote:
As for ACORN and Comm Party USA they are devisive in their intent. They promote and agenda that speaks equality, but does not promote it. Pick any Communist Party in the world, which one is actually good for it's people? Acorn has already been exposed on several occasions for the work they are doing, I don't think that needs to be revisited.


My question was how was ACORN and the CPA manipulating OWS?

Quote:
In back tracking, I don't recall seeing a whole lot of violence from MLK and the movements they had in Mobile, and other places in the South. They were attacked, but they didn't go on the attack. That would be a model I was suggesting.


How about the race riots in Detroit? You can't just pick and choose what you perceive as the worst of the younger generation against the best of the older... Its a completely unfair comparison...

Quote:
One of many struggles I have with OWS is that they attack the "1%" as if they are evil people because they've made a lot of money, or have undue influence. I heard today a phrase that was kicked back and forth some time ago. Trickle down economics.


If trickle down economics works, why do we have such an uneven distribution of wealth today?

Quote:
Those that have industry or idea, provide jobs for those of us who wish to work, and then we go buy, eat, and live accordingly. Those on top make money and continue to grow, those below continue to make money and grow, and have the right to become the 1% themselves if they have the ideas or are willing to struggle for them. The bottom percentage of people who have learned to exist on the system will always demand more and provide little except appetite, and wants. We can not wash our hands of them by any means, but we can stop the process of making Government Subsidies a lifestyle. Government hands out money because it is what it has, and it's easier. Teaching and intervening is messy and difficult work. It is work that used to be done by many churches back in the day, but was taken away by the government.

I have programs and ideas for restoring America that will probably never see the light of day, unless the Lord wants it too. But that doesn't mean I can' t make an impact where I'm at. So that's what I try to do, not win them all, just one at a time.

Thanks for being willing to share....


Breaking that way of life completely is a dream and I think focusing on that aspect is a poor way to look at it... There are plenty that use it as the safety net that it is designed for and that is who we should focus on... How can we get those people where they want to be?


April 11th, 2012, 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Too tired to break down each quote again, so will post in red.

Murtyle wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Murtyle,

Thanks for posting your perspective on the BOA thing, I didn't understand where you were coming from. However, I do thing that BOA and any financial institution will continue to charge fees, they will just add them somewhere else.


Of course they will... And what check do we have against them charging unfair fees? Only our power as consumers to go elsewhere...

Have you read the bill that changed this and made this happen? The retailers used to pay the entire share, but that got reduced by the feingold/mccain bill or whatever it was. Now everyone pays monthly fee instead of some consumers paying at the register. The fees always got passed off, but now everyone would have to pay... Isn't that the same system you want overall?

Quote:
I think NJ's comment about the water line is pretty close to reality. I work in Gov. Sub Housing and I see the reality day in day out. What I see is an under educated group of people who are using the system as their means of survival. Like what was said, work is hard and it's easier to put the hand out.

The government subsidizes housing, food, medical care, utilities, earned income per child, and so why would someone need to work. Now mix in the SSI capability that someone claims a hardship based upon "medical" reasoning and they get a check, OR the children get a check because of an absent father. It's not mansion living, but it is living, and more often than not it is a standard with which this segment of society is all to familiar with, and completly understands.


My DI used to have a saying, there's always that 10%... Its true in any society... I just think it's the wrong thing to focus on... There are always going to be people that will game the system no matter how you structure the incentives...

Those on welfare currently are much higher than 10%. When the incentives become a valid way of life, there's no incentive to improve. That % is growing every day.

Quote:
Think back to the movie Cinderella Man, were the Russell Crowe had to go to the governmnet office to receive his "portion." He takes it and then when he wins his fight goes and pays it back, much to the surprise of the teller. Or how about the "Legend of Bagger Vance" the young boy is humiliated by his father the street sweeper, and almost hates his dad for what he's doing. Except that Bagger brings reality into perspective that his father is WORKING for what they have, as compared to standing in a line receiving charity and becoming accustomed to it.


These are nice stories, but if there is no work there is no work... There is always going to be a % of people who aren't working... Full employment is considered what 6% unemployed? That's 18 million people... What do you do with those people? We as the wealthiest society in the history of the world should have some sort of safety net for these people... What that should be is debatable and I'm open for better suggestions than the current system we have... There are jobs. But people are coming out of college with liberal arts and art history degrees where there has never been a growing market. People refuse to retrain for the jobs available. And other refuse to relocate for the jobs available. Like I said above, we have a safety net, and its grown to high. There's no difference between living on the system and a minimum wage job. Of course the cost of living is going to be too high for a minimum wage person when they get less than someone on welfare collects. The market is going to adjust to those on the bottom. You need a trampoline to get people working, and the net needs to be lowered dramatically.

This is a world economy now and a lot of American's are struggling to keep our standard of living because of it... I'm studying to be an accountant and there is a movement in America to go to International Financial Reporting Standards... I'm slightly afraid that if we do go to IFRS it's going to open the flood gates to people from other developing countries to come here and work for half my salary like what is happening to computer engineers...

Quote:
You asked me a question about leadership and enforcement and I was not meaning that we needed another committee or anything. What I was trying to show is that a true Utopian society where all have power and it is dispersed evenly is not obtainable. Someone will always have to be in power, or they will take it by force. Since there is a structure to community, regulating it according to how the founding fathers intended has been the best way so far. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT WE DIDN'T HURT PEOPLE OR TAKE ADVANTAGE ALONG THE WAY. But giving people the freedom to live and operate as they are able within the set rules of community is fine. But when the rules become situational or relative, then it's anarchy.


I agree that the utopian society you outline isn't possible... I don't think most reasonable people would disagree... I still don't see how the country is coming apart in the way you describe though... OWS was a movement to unite people who felt they were getting the short end of the stick...

Quote:
As for ACORN and Comm Party USA they are devisive in their intent. They promote and agenda that speaks equality, but does not promote it. Pick any Communist Party in the world, which one is actually good for it's people? Acorn has already been exposed on several occasions for the work they are doing, I don't think that needs to be revisited.


My question was how was ACORN and the CPA manipulating OWS? OWS was coopted by the unions and communist/socialist party immediately. Who do you think were paying people to sit out in NY every day. Who was organizing them to march and protest and then setup a financial system to collect donations and regulate food and supplies. No leadership, except only a select few got to have any say in where the money went. It might have started with good intentions, but 900+ criminal charges later, and it accomplished nothing.

Quote:
In back tracking, I don't recall seeing a whole lot of violence from MLK and the movements they had in Mobile, and other places in the South. They were attacked, but they didn't go on the attack. That would be a model I was suggesting.


How about the race riots in Detroit? You can't just pick and choose what you perceive as the worst of the younger generation against the best of the older... Its a completely unfair comparison...

Quote:
One of many struggles I have with OWS is that they attack the "1%" as if they are evil people because they've made a lot of money, or have undue influence. I heard today a phrase that was kicked back and forth some time ago. Trickle down economics.


If trickle down economics works, why do we have such an uneven distribution of wealth today? When social systems become too large and too supportive that they replace the upper lower end of the economic system, it will draw in more and more. As the welfare system grows, the divide between rich and poor will increase at the same rate. Many say Reagan killed the middle class, and in some ways he might have, but the largest % of people jumped from middle to upper, not middle to lower. Currently, we're seeing the trend move the opposite. The largest % of people are moving to the lower spectrum. They will always have someone to target when the divide gets bigger due to their own policies.

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Those that have industry or idea, provide jobs for those of us who wish to work, and then we go buy, eat, and live accordingly. Those on top make money and continue to grow, those below continue to make money and grow, and have the right to become the 1% themselves if they have the ideas or are willing to struggle for them. The bottom percentage of people who have learned to exist on the system will always demand more and provide little except appetite, and wants. We can not wash our hands of them by any means, but we can stop the process of making Government Subsidies a lifestyle. Government hands out money because it is what it has, and it's easier. Teaching and intervening is messy and difficult work. It is work that used to be done by many churches back in the day, but was taken away by the government.

I have programs and ideas for restoring America that will probably never see the light of day, unless the Lord wants it too. But that doesn't mean I can' t make an impact where I'm at. So that's what I try to do, not win them all, just one at a time.

Thanks for being willing to share....


Breaking that way of life completely is a dream and I think focusing on that aspect is a poor way to look at it... There are plenty that use it as the safety net that it is designed for and that is who we should focus on... How can we get those people where they want to be?


April 12th, 2012, 12:10 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Quote:
Could it be that you that instead of not getting any coverage the strategy of these large corporations was to smear the movement by focusing on the fringe radical people who participated in the the movement? To me the fact that people keep saying that they didn't know what their message was is just proof of that. If you look at what some of the OWS movement has done instead of the sound bites this purpose is pretty clear. For instince, it was an OWS movement that pushed back against Bank of America's debit card fees last year



wow...Thanks OWS...I didnt realize that in order to avoid REDICULOUS Bank fees (that happen every day) was to pile a bunch or unorganized people together to do nothing for days on end.

Here I was thinking that all people had to do was leave these stupid institutions and join the non profit credit unions that dont charge those rediculous fees. silly me and choosing personal freedom of choice. I shoulda gone mob mentality! i am so unamerican.


:roll:

Way to contribute to the childishness that has become all political conversation in this country...

And if YOU do this, what message does it send? What does it change? It saves you money, but that is it...

What I was really hoping for from this entire OWS thing is that people would realize that if we as consumers can dictate to these corporations... We are the only ones who can... The government should be limited in what it can tell a private business can do... But we as American consumers have the most influence over these things... Tomorrow, if this country's consumers decided that we aren't going to buy anything unless it's made in this country, there would be manufacturing plants starting up in no time... I mean don't buy a thing unless it is absolutely necessary that comes from another country... BUT we won't do that, cause we like our cheap toys and no one has enough will power to go without something anymore... So off we go... Complaining for the sake of complaining without realizing we are the answer... Oh well...



You response makes no sense. You call me childish then go on to explain that what I did is EXACTLY what the answer is for this country. (at least an perfect example of it.)

Fact is you are right about certain things, and wrong about others. The part about buying american....wrong. first off find me a product (other than (most) foods) that is completely made in America. good luck with that. almost every manufacturer outsources SOMETHING out of country. you have to stop thinking local and start thinking global. the days of only american made products are as dead as rail travel. Like it or not...thats the way it is today.

The part about the people having a choice as to what buisnesses get away with? That part was dead on. which is why i dont understand why you (tried to) mock me. fact is the more people who get fed up with banks and leave them (and it's happening in droves) the more likely they are to make changes and fix the things they are doing wrong.

Another prime example. You NEVER hear anything good about Walmart other than prices. they treat their staff like crap, their employees are rude, they kill small buisness in the area......and yet people still shop their like it's their only choice. (I dont mind you...I hate the place). If people would just figure out that in a capitolist society they vote with their dollar more than any ballott box, things would ultimately get better.

and far as the OWS...if they had leadership and someone to help them stay focused none of this conversation would be needed. but since they went mob mentality the whole thing crashed and burned. ......are you really suprised?

Quote:
Complaining for the sake of complaining without realizing we are the answer... Oh well...



Correct me if im wrong...but is this all the OWS movement ended up accomplishing?

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Last edited by regularjoe12 on April 12th, 2012, 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



April 12th, 2012, 8:30 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
If trickle down economics works, why do we have such an uneven distribution of wealth today?


Some people flat out refuse to work, or have drug habits or physical ailments that prevent them from working. There was no reason for anyone (at least in Michigan) to be unemployed in the mid-90's. Virtually every factory had "help wanted" signs out front, yet so many chose to pan handle on the streets, take advantage of social welfare programs, and remain "poor." Sometimes, being poor IS a choice.


April 12th, 2012, 8:31 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
If trickle down economics works, why do we have such an uneven distribution of wealth today?


Some people flat out refuse to work, or have drug habits or physical ailments that prevent them from working. There was no reason for anyone (at least in Michigan) to be unemployed in the mid-90's. Virtually every factory had "help wanted" signs out front, yet so many chose to pan handle on the streets, take advantage of social welfare programs, and remain "poor." Sometimes, being poor IS a choice.


for Proof see Genesee County....

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April 12th, 2012, 8:34 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
And see this is what I mean... You make the whole movement into a caricature... The thing is, if you paid attention, there were lots of different people that made up OWS (not just the ones in the occupations)... I'm sure plenty of them were educated and had bank accounts...


You say potato I say pototo... You act as if there was an organized movement when there was not. I went down to occupy Detroit, read blogs, first hand accounts, and heard the interviews of people that were in other various occupy X cities. All were more or less the same. There was a clear direction that told people what to go out and be mad about (the "message of the movement," what the "organizers WANTED them to say") and there was the message that they were conveying. It was TWO VERY DIFFERENT MESSAGES. So what was the "movement's message"? And, what was the "movement"? Was the movement the "message" that the "leaders" were trying to get out there? Or is it what 90% of the people were stating that they were there for?

I contend that the "movement" was the 90% and not the 10%. I contend that whatever the intent of the "movement" what it turned into was very, very different.


Murtyle wrote:
So in this case, you think that they did a good job of covering OWS and couldn't find anything good to say about it... However, THE thing they all agreed upon is unfair corporate influence and that is something that you said yourself you don't trust the media to cover fairly... So why do you trust them in this case?

All I'm saying is that you are well versed in what the fringe and the people who jumped in on the act were saying, but the one core thing that they started out to accomplish you hadn't heard before... It should give you pause that's all..


Who agreed upon "unfair corporate influence" being a target of the movement? Like I said, most of the masses complained about forgiveness of debt, forgiveness of GOVERNMENT student loans, and other sundry distributions of wealth. I heard very little complains about big corporations. If that really was the message, why weren't these rallies held at Wallmart, in front of Mobile gas stations, etc.? Why "occupy" "public" parks? If the real message is what you say it was, then it was executed very poorly. What I contend is that the masses of the movement didn't follow it's leadership or their message, and in this case the strength and legitimacy of the "movement' lies not with the message, nor the leadership, but in the movement's numbers.


Murtyle wrote:
There is no denying that there were a substantial amount of people who wanted to get rid of our capitalist system... From what I saw however they jumped in on the backs of OWS... Just like Michael Moore and Cornel West did... No doubt it gave these people a platform to spread their message and it's sad... It really was a wasted opportunity in my opinion and they would have been much better served if they stuck with their message and had more organization... They would have likely been more effective...


IMO the "people" didn't stick with the leader's message because that's not what the people wanted. Those people weren't mad at Wallmart, they're mad that some people are rich and they're not. They're mad that the 1% (which, really when you get down to it, they're really pissed at about the top 30% of our society, they just call it the "1%" so they can be 99% in stead of 70%) have money and resources that they do not.


April 12th, 2012, 8:43 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle -
I commend you for what you're trying to do. Sadly, I don't think it's going to have much, if any, effect as most peeps are already entrenched in their own thoughts/opinions/bias to view other sides with a truly open mind. Goodness knows I tried in the other OWS threads
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15129
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15288

You're presenting a lot of good, thought provoking points and in a much better worded way than I did, maybe you'll make some progress.
Good luck my friend!

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April 12th, 2012, 10:45 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
aw comon wags I tried to be fair with the "movement". I really did. I understand what it was SUPPOSED to be. and under the proper leadership even contend that it could have been a good thing. sadly no one stepped up to keep everyone focused.

this got out of control and the whole thing just became an embarrasment IMO

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April 12th, 2012, 11:09 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Being in NJ and having covered OWS for the college newspaper, I know what I'm talking about it when I mention the atmosphere, the people, the union involvement and the crimes. And I wasn't bias in explaining it, it was out in the open for all to see. Some were just to blind to look past what supporters say.


April 12th, 2012, 11:53 am
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