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 Utopia: the fallacy of commune living 
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
njroar wrote:
Have you read the bill that changed this and made this happen? The retailers used to pay the entire share, but that got reduced by the feingold/mccain bill or whatever it was. Now everyone pays monthly fee instead of some consumers paying at the register. The fees always got passed off, but now everyone would have to pay... Isn't that the same system you want overall?


The Durban amendment... I think you got lost in the conversation... The point is that we as consumers have the power to check these corporations with our collective purchasing power... The fact that people don't understand this after all this time OWS has gone on means that it was a failure in my opinion...

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Those on welfare currently are much higher than 10%. When the incentives become a valid way of life, there's no incentive to improve. That % is growing every day.


I would argue the % of screw ups in my platoon were much higher than 10 % as well... :lol: 10 % is an arbitrary number...

The point is, no matter what incentives you lay out... The lazy people are going to continue to find ways to game that system...

Quote:
There are jobs. But people are coming out of college with liberal arts and art history degrees where there has never been a growing market. People refuse to retrain for the jobs available. And other refuse to relocate for the jobs available. Like I said above, we have a safety net, and its grown to high. There's no difference between living on the system and a minimum wage job. Of course the cost of living is going to be too high for a minimum wage person when they get less than someone on welfare collects. The market is going to adjust to those on the bottom. You need a trampoline to get people working, and the net needs to be lowered dramatically.


I don't think it should be lowered... I'm fine with what the level of funding we give these people... The change should be that in order to receive this stuff, you have to DO SOMETHING... I don't care if it's volunteer or take classes or even a minimum or below minimum wage job... If you are physically and mentally able you should have to do something...

Quote:
When social systems become too large and too supportive that they replace the upper lower end of the economic system, it will draw in more and more. As the welfare system grows, the divide between rich and poor will increase at the same rate. Many say Reagan killed the middle class, and in some ways he might have, but the largest % of people jumped from middle to upper, not middle to lower. Currently, we're seeing the trend move the opposite. The largest % of people are moving to the lower spectrum. They will always have someone to target when the divide gets bigger due to their own policies.


Do you have a link or anything to support this? The obvious answer to why it doesn't work anymore is because all our labor is being outsourced... Less of the wealth is being trickled down and a lot of what is being trickled down seems to be going overseas...


April 12th, 2012, 12:43 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
regularjoe12 wrote:
You response makes no sense. You call me childish then go on to explain that what I did is EXACTLY what the answer is for this country. (at least an perfect example of it.)


Your tone was sarcastic and childish and it was a straw man... You as an individual can't do much to pressure these companies... A group as OWS is, can... They're just doing a terrible job of it...

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Fact is you are right about certain things, and wrong about others. The part about buying american....wrong. first off find me a product (other than (most) foods) that is completely made in America. good luck with that. almost every manufacturer outsources SOMETHING out of country. you have to stop thinking local and start thinking global. the days of only american made products are as dead as rail travel. Like it or not...thats the way it is today.


Doesn't have to be that way... American's consume far more than any other country... If we are willing to sacrifice, go without some things for the near future and pay more these products will have to come back here... The market (we US consumers) will demand it and the market gets what the market wants... It won't happen, cause we those of us who do well in this country don't want to pay more... Instead we complain about the drag the low producers put on us because they don't contribute much anymore... But in a very real way, we cause the low income employment to go overseas by our never ending demand for things to be cheaper...

Right now you probably can't find many products that are strictly made here... That doesn't mean we can't go without some of these things or buy them used from other people or buy those that are more heavily US made... It doesn't have to be an overnight thing... Again though, I doubt it is possible here...

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The part about the people having a choice as to what buisnesses get away with? That part was dead on. which is why i dont understand why you (tried to) mock me. fact is the more people who get fed up with banks and leave them (and it's happening in droves) the more likely they are to make changes and fix the things they are doing wrong.


I took issue with your tone... It was sarcastic and condescending... At least that's the way I took it... My point is, OWS started out and could have been an organized effort for what you and I are talking about... They failed and it's unfortunate... My only reason for even jumping into this argument was to highlight that fact...

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Another prime example. You NEVER hear anything good about Walmart other than prices. they treat their staff like crap, their employees are rude, they kill small buisness in the area......and yet people still shop their like it's their only choice. (I dont mind you...I hate the place). If people would just figure out that in a capitolist society they vote with their dollar more than any ballott box, things would ultimately get better.


Walmart is basically China's distribution arm... I don't shop there either... You and I alone are doing nothing to change any of this though... It has to start with those of us who have an option to shop at more expensive places in order for this to change... The low income people almost have to shop there... Its either that or we just accept that our wages are going to continue to tumble while the rest of the world's slowly rise and in the mean time the wealth gap continues to grow...

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and far as the OWS...if they had leadership and someone to help them stay focused none of this conversation would be needed. but since they went mob mentality the whole thing crashed and burned. ......are you really suprised?


I'm not surprised... They failed to accept that as you grow, bureauracracy and hierarchy are essential... Still, I'm not going to throw out what I believe was a very central idea to how this country needs to approach the future...

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Correct me if im wrong...but is this all the OWS movement ended up accomplishing?


Pretty much... That's why I call it a wasted opportunity...


April 12th, 2012, 1:11 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
wjb21ndtown wrote:
You say potato I say pototo... You act as if there was an organized movement when there was not. I went down to occupy Detroit, read blogs, first hand accounts, and heard the interviews of people that were in other various occupy X cities. All were more or less the same. There was a clear direction that told people what to go out and be mad about (the "message of the movement," what the "organizers WANTED them to say") and there was the message that they were conveying. It was TWO VERY DIFFERENT MESSAGES. So what was the "movement's message"? And, what was the "movement"? Was the movement the "message" that the "leaders" were trying to get out there? Or is it what 90% of the people were stating that they were there for?


I guess it's both... I guess where you and I differ, is that I choose not to throw out the part of the movement that I believe was right and very much needed...

While a lot of us don't agree with what you say was the majority of their follower's messages we must first realize that they are American's too... They aren't the enemy...

Quote:
Who agreed upon "unfair corporate influence" being a target of the movement? Like I said, most of the masses complained about forgiveness of debt, forgiveness of GOVERNMENT student loans, and other sundry distributions of wealth. I heard very little complains about big corporations. If that really was the message, why weren't these rallies held at Wallmart, in front of Mobile gas stations, etc.? Why "occupy" "public" parks? If the real message is what you say it was, then it was executed very poorly. What I contend is that the masses of the movement didn't follow it's leadership or their message, and in this case the strength and legitimacy of the "movement' lies not with the message, nor the leadership, but in the movement's numbers.


I think what you are failing to realize is that OWS isn't just made up of the people occupying the parks... There are a lot of people out there who identify themselves with "the 99%"... I've seen interviews where people have said the same thing you outline here... I've also seen interviews where they talk exclusively about the things I have said... We have a small occupy movement here at UF and their issue was the local courts.... By not defining itself it turned into a megaphone for any and all complaints and special interests... It was absolutely executed poorly... What I am defending is the ideals of the reasonable sane people that I saw who also made up OWS... I'm just saying lets not forget that these things that have merit..

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IMO the "people" didn't stick with the leader's message because that's not what the people wanted. Those people weren't mad at Wallmart, they're mad that some people are rich and they're not. They're mad that the 1% (which, really when you get down to it, they're really pissed at about the top 30% of our society, they just call it the "1%" so they can be 99% in stead of 70%) have money and resources that they do not.


There's no doubt that they are upset with income inequality.... I think we should all be concerned with it... But they aren't mad because they aren't rich... They're mad because they feel their voice and influence over the direction of this country has been marginalized... They're mad because Mit Romney pays 15% tax on Millions of dollars of income where they pay 23% and they're even more mad when he says that he is just playing by the rules WHEN HE AND BAIN are the ones who lobbied congress to make said rules... They're mad cause we bailed out the banks, now they're posting record profits and they're not lending... They're mad because the jobs we do have are in constant jeopardy of being sourced to the lowest bidder so shareholders can make another half cent on their shares...

It is really easy to dismiss these people when you hear some of the remarks some of their members make... It is easy to dismiss these people because they were arrested a lot... It is easy to dismiss these people when you ask whether they should be spending their time looking for a job... It is easy to dismiss these people when you hear they want "free stuff"... It is easy to dismiss them when you make them into a caricature... Its not so easy when you think about it in terms that they are fellow Americans that have real concerns and frustrations and problems that are willing to try and make a change themselves... And if you don't think there are many of the OWS group that are like this, you are simply mistaken... Much like the low income people who are trying to make it out, I think that is where our focus should be... Not the violent whack jobs that make it so easy to dismiss a lot of these people's struggles...


April 12th, 2012, 1:59 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
TheRealWags wrote:
Murtyle -
I commend you for what you're trying to do. Sadly, I don't think it's going to have much, if any, effect as most peeps are already entrenched in their own thoughts/opinions/bias to view other sides with a truly open mind. Goodness knows I tried in the other OWS threads
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15129
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15288

You're presenting a lot of good, thought provoking points and in a much better worded way than I did, maybe you'll make some progress.
Good luck my friend!


Thanks... I'm know I'm not going to sway anyone into thinking the movement was a revelation or even a success... I just want to humanize them a bit and point out that some of their frustrations and fears are very real...


April 12th, 2012, 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Murtyle wrote:
I don't think it should be lowered... I'm fine with what the level of funding we give these people... The change should be that in order to receive this stuff, you have to DO SOMETHING... I don't care if it's volunteer or take classes or even a minimum or below minimum wage job... If you are physically and mentally able you should have to do something...


I don't have a problem with them "doing something," but the government would make such a cluster f@*k out of seeing "who can do what" and figuring out "what they can do" and monitoring "who's doing what" that the program would be a loser. We would literally lose money getting work out of these nitwits.


Murtyle wrote:
I guess it's both... I guess where you and I differ, is that I choose not to throw out the part of the movement that I believe was right and very much needed...


I just can't in good consciousness attribute something articulable to that mess. I believe, as NJOR does, that the originators of the movement are and were quite literally socialist/communists and union leaders that want to destroy our Country, or at least destroy our way of life. IMO that's why the "redistribution" arguments or support came in so early, and IMO that's why you never saw anyone put a head to the organization. Why? Because they couldn't. They couldn't come out and say "I'm leading this thing" because it would have immediately discredited the whole thing.

That said, I'm willing to go along with the idea that corporations are far too powerful and that something needs to be done about them. However, good luck accomplishing that end. Americans are too stupid, too short sighted, and don't have the proper principle foundation and turpitude to endure such a fight. We care more about saving a nickle than we do about curbing corporate power. We all have the choice to shop at the Mom and Pop hardware store, yet constantly choose to go to Home Depot. It cracks me up that linseed oil and shalack use to be solid wood preservation methods that lasted YEARS, now we pay double or even triple for watered down, commercialized versions of the same product, all because Home Depot is killing people that really "know" anything about doing it yourself. There was a campaign last time gas was priced high to not buy gas from Exon/Mobile until gas went down X%, but the problem is, they only have to lower it a nickle to get people in, and if they lowered gas a quater they'd have lines at every pump!


Murtyle wrote:
I think what you are failing to realize is that OWS isn't just made up of the people occupying the parks... There are a lot of people out there who identify themselves with "the 99%"... I've seen interviews where people have said the same thing you outline here... I've also seen interviews where they talk exclusively about the things I have said... We have a small occupy movement here at UF and their issue was the local courts.... By not defining itself it turned into a megaphone for any and all complaints and special interests... It was absolutely executed poorly... What I am defending is the ideals of the reasonable sane people that I saw who also made up OWS... I'm just saying lets not forget that these things that have merit.


Again, we're going to have to agree to disagree. IMO OWS was ONLY those morons that showed up in parks and destroyed stuff, and the communist/socialist leaders that put it into play. There were articulate people that tried to take the movement over when it was in its infancy, and before it turned to debauchery, but quickly bolted when they saw what was on the horizon. I can't attribute those extremely few (1% maybe?) to be apart of the "movement."

That said, I'm also not throwing out meritorious arguments about what "needs" to happen, just because I discredit one potential source. If OWS got the ball rolling for the conversation, so be it, but IMO that's just people trying to shine a light up an rectum of an animal just to make it look better. I don't know why people are so bent on making OWS into a "good thing" when it clearly went amok.


Murtyle wrote:
There's no doubt that they are upset with income inequality.... I think we should all be concerned with it... But they aren't mad because they aren't rich... They're mad because they feel their voice and influence over the direction of this country has been marginalized... They're mad because Mit Romney pays 15% tax on Millions of dollars of income where they pay 23% and they're even more mad when he says that he is just playing by the rules WHEN HE AND BAIN are the ones who lobbied congress to make said rules... They're mad cause we bailed out the banks, now they're posting record profits and they're not lending... They're mad because the jobs we do have are in constant jeopardy of being sourced to the lowest bidder so shareholders can make another half cent on their shares.


Three things -
1) Government corruption is a bad thing and needs to be rectified. However, we're too busy pointing the finger at the other side. People need to stop saying that the Solyndra loan was a legitimate loan, and hoist anyone that supported it (including BHO) up on his own petard. Wherever there was a Rep. misappropriation of funds, do it there too!

Further, we NEED GOVT. ACCOUNTABILITY. Barney Frank should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town for what he did with Fanny and Freddie. It's a joke that he's still in office when he should probably be in jail. It's a joke that the Barrak Obama "home protection plan" probably caused more foreclosures than it saved. It's a joke that the "tarp plan" probably caused more foreclosures that it saved. These people are phucking morons and need to be in the unemployment lines reaping THOSE benefits that they so vehemently bargain for.

2) There should be NO PROBLEM with someone taking advantage of the capital gains tax. For one, anyone can do it. The rich and poor alike can invest money for more than one year and pay 15% on it. For two, IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY. Leaving your money invested in the economy is good for the economy. It provides stable, predictable growth. If everyone pulls their money out it causes pandemonium, when people leave their money in provides stability. Also, they're getting this lower tax rate AT A RISK. They're RISKING their money, they're RISKING their gains. They SHOULD get a benefit for it. Take that away and our markets will become more unpredictable, more volatile, and less powerful. People will invest LESS in the US if we take capital gains taxes out of the equation, but you don't hear that from the media. All you hear is that Romney and Warren Buffet paid LESS THAT WE DID!!! Which is also complete bullsh!t, because I guaranty you that Warren Buffet paid INTO the system is more than any of us on here makes (and may be more than all of us put together!)


3) Free trade screwed up the job market and greedy unions are making it worse. Unions had turned "profit" into a dirty dirty word, and they think that business owners should take all of the risk and reap none of the reward. You literally hear them talk about business owners making profits "on the backs of the workers"... Boo phuckin' who!!! that's what they're in business for. That's what they invested MILLIONS for. But no, Unions want to "see the books." They want PROOF that the owner isn't making money and if the owner IS making money the unions want MORE. MORE MORE MORE MORE, until there's nothing left. They did this until business owners were FORCED to look over seas for employees. There WAS a myth that shipping jobs to Mexico would COST companies money by way of lack of quality and shipping costs. That myth is now gone. My parents both worked (one still does) for Fisher Corp. and they produce car parts. Their Mexico plant has BETTER quality numbers than their US plant. Those employees are HAPPIER to work and make around 1/3 of what they make in Michigan. They have pride in their work, we just complain. We feel entitled, we feel like we're "owed" something, which is complete bullsh!t.


April 12th, 2012, 2:37 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I am having a hard time taking a "movement" seriously when they do such things as crap on cop cars, disrupt businesses, prevent people from working, threaten the well fare and safety of employees and so on. The reason the movements of the 60's worked so well is because they hit the company where it hurt, in the wallet. The bus system couldn't sustain itself without it's daily African American riders, and so it had to change.

The present example as illustrated around this country isn't about getting a message out as much as it's the "woodstock" of this generation. Let's get together, beat some drums, smoke some dube, free sex, and so on. If this were a true movement then they would generate an agenda and deliver a clear and concise message, and stop interfering with Mr. and Mrs. America who is trying to provide for their families in the jobs that are provided by the evil 1%.

In the Utopian mindset that I spoke about, who sets the standard and enforcement so that everyone gets their equal share? How do you keep corruption from running amuck? The CPofA and Acorn, just used the passion and gathering of disenfranchised youth, to further their agenda, and get their name in the paper. If some of their plans get accomplished along the way, that's a bonus for them, if not, they've won more recruits. It's scary really.

Where there is no vision,
the people are unrestrained,
But happy is he who keeps the law.

Proverbs 29:17,18 NASB

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Last edited by WarEr4Christ on April 13th, 2012, 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



April 12th, 2012, 9:56 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
IF anyone is interested I would like to try and provide a link to some teaching I heard today. Let me warn you that it's by a well known Pastor, Dr. David Jeremiah. He was speaking about how the calamity was actually used as a tool to relinquish our rights and freedoms for the sake of security. A crisis is created, a fear is started, the fear causes a ground swell movement of people who then give up their rights and freedoms in order to stabilize the situation by giving the power to a centralized government that will never return that power once it's been given up. It was filled with examples, statistics and names of things going on this very day.

I'm not trying to force religion on anyone, but I thought you might be interested in the perspective. Let me know.


Added this morning via edit. (Take the Global Warming myth, yes temps are going up, but not for the reasons stated. This will continue to be a stick point because a lie told often enough eventually becomes the truth. What happened as a result of GW? Governments changed their laws, Companies changed their practices, and now it's being force fed into the lives of the public. We are given incentives to buy failed eco cars, and investing in companies that are failing. It's a CONTROL weapon. If they can create a fear based upon "scientific evidence" then they can provide the cure for the problem they've created, which ultimately separates you from your rights.)

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April 12th, 2012, 10:00 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Just a couple quick comments...
wjb21ndtown wrote:
2) There should be NO PROBLEM with someone taking advantage of the capital gains tax. For one, anyone can do it. The rich and poor alike can invest money for more than one year and pay 15% on it.
While true, who is more likely to actually have the money to invest, the rich or the poor? Me thinks the rich have much more 'disposable' and therefore 'investable' income, especially considering as the poor don't have any 'disposable' income (the very definition of poor, no?)
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I am having a hard time taking a "movement" seriously when they do such things as crap on cop cars, disrupt businesses, prevent people from working, threaten the well fare and safety of employees and so on.
Does the phrase "If it bleeds, it leads" sound familiar? Not too mention, how much of the media is not owned by large conglomerates? They ALL have an agenda, and they ALL report to bigger business. I'm sure most of us can agree that the 'media' hasn't been doing their jobs for years; that said, why is it still surprising to some peeps that they're focusing on the negativity? Am I saying that some of these things didn't happen? No, what I am saying is that, as per usual, the media focuses on the negatives..after all, that's what gets them the ratings.

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April 13th, 2012, 11:48 am
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
I dont disagree with you one bit wags, but to me those problems were just symptoms of a larger problem. Ill say it one more time and then Ill stop beating the dead horse: LEADERSHIP! you can't have this large of a group get together without someone taking charge, keeping people occupied and focused, and generally keeping the peace.

Throw in the fact that they DID have waaaay too many unemployed, undiscaplined, and frankly undereducated (im looking at the liberal arts college students here) people gathering in one spot. if there is no one to keep em busy they are just GOING to cause mischief. thats why the problems were unversal no matter what city the occupy happened.

Good idea or bad idea this whole thing flopped HARD because whomever set the whole damn thing up...bailed when they were needed most. The fact that this WAS well set up, and word spread so fast that whomever the mystery group may be they totally abandoned the movement before it could do any good.

I dont care who set it up...socialists, commies, Uncle sam, santa clause or the easter bunny...they put effort into getting it off the ground then disappeared. I keep wondering why...

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April 13th, 2012, 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Utopia: the fallacy of commune living
Sorry I've been away for a while.... I was neck deep in finals prep...

wjb21ndtown wrote:
I don't have a problem with them "doing something," but the government would make such a cluster f@*k out of seeing "who can do what" and figuring out "what they can do" and monitoring "who's doing what" that the program would be a loser. We would literally lose money getting work out of these nitwits.


This is a defeatist attitude that I don't buy... I say put the kids that went and got nonsense degrees as supervisors, pay them a modest salary to oversee it and give them a break on some of their student debt... Regardless of what the plan is, I refuse to look at the way this country is run currently and think that we can't do better... Government programs can be functional...

Quote:
I just can't in good consciousness attribute something articulable to that mess. I believe, as NJOR does, that the originators of the movement are and were quite literally socialist/communists


That's fine if that's the way you choose to see it... I don't and I think it's entirely too easy to just throw out the good points these people have because you're convinced their all socialist/communist...

Quote:
and union leaders that want to destroy our Country, or at least destroy our way of life. IMO that's why the "redistribution" arguments or support came in so early, and IMO that's why you never saw anyone put a head to the organization. Why? Because they couldn't. They couldn't come out and say "I'm leading this thing" because it would have immediately discredited the whole thing.


I have had my fair share of dealings with unions and you aren't telling me anything I don't know... I hated working with them... I found their workers lazy and inefficient... It's like since working conditions have improved so much over the years (a lot to their credit) that they find something to stay relevant and they go overboard...

Quote:
That said, I'm willing to go along with the idea that corporations are far too powerful and that something needs to be done about them. However, good luck accomplishing that end. Americans are too stupid, too short sighted, and don't have the proper principle foundation and turpitude to endure such a fight. We care more about saving a nickle than we do about curbing corporate power. We all have the choice to shop at the Mom and Pop hardware store, yet constantly choose to go to Home Depot. It cracks me up that linseed oil and shalack use to be solid wood preservation methods that lasted YEARS, now we pay double or even triple for watered down, commercialized versions of the same product, all because Home Depot is killing people that really "know" anything about doing it yourself. There was a campaign last time gas was priced high to not buy gas from Exon/Mobile until gas went down X%, but the problem is, they only have to lower it a nickle to get people in, and if they lowered gas a quater they'd have lines at every pump!


Completely agree... That is where I thought that a movement like this that garnered such widespread support would make an impact... Unfortunately it didn't... Maybe we should start our own movement... Seems we here all agree on this... If enough people were out there showing others that this is doable and in their best interest, people would join in... The change can't come from the bottom earners though... They have to shop at the discount shops... The change has to come from us in the middle...

Quote:
Again, we're going to have to agree to disagree. IMO OWS was ONLY those morons that showed up in parks and destroyed stuff, and the communist/socialist leaders that put it into play. There were articulate people that tried to take the movement over when it was in its infancy, and before it turned to debauchery, but quickly bolted when they saw what was on the horizon. I can't attribute those extremely few (1% maybe?) to be apart of the "movement."


This is kind of like DevilDoc's argument that the younger generation is more violent... Well of course, if you only want to take into count the violent part of this generation and the peaceful part of his... I don't think the number of violent socialists and communists that identify themselves as the 99% are as high as you think.. There are a lot of working mothers, young adults strapped for cash looking for jobs in an economy that is having trouble growing because the whole world is delevering (According to my finance professor and Bill Gross we've never tried to grow an economy with debt being such a small piece of the pie)... People are frustrated...

Quote:
That said, I'm also not throwing out meritorious arguments about what "needs" to happen, just because I discredit one potential source. If OWS got the ball rolling for the conversation, so be it, but IMO that's just people trying to shine a light up an rectum of an animal just to make it look better. I don't know why people are so bent on making OWS into a "good thing" when it clearly went amok.


I'm not... Merely, trying to point out that a lot of those people that you're so hell bent on talking down to are fellow Americans, frustrated and scared... Maybe they are drawn to the socialists and communists because the capitalist Americans are so adamant about branding them lazy good-for-nothing losers... One of my favorite books is "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius, in it he says (I actually looked up the whole quote, cause I think it is awesome):

"When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. They are like this because they can't tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good, and the ugliness of evil, and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own - not of the same blood and birth, but the same mind, and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative, or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are unnatural." -Marcus Aurelius

Note:"unnatural" is used in a weird context here... Don't get hung up on it... I think it's a translation issue...

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Three things -
1) Government corruption is a bad thing and needs to be rectified. However, we're too busy pointing the finger at the other side. People need to stop saying that the Solyndra loan was a legitimate loan, and hoist anyone that supported it (including BHO) up on his own petard. Wherever there was a Rep. misappropriation of funds, do it there too!

Further, we NEED GOVT. ACCOUNTABILITY. Barney Frank should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town for what he did with Fanny and Freddie. It's a joke that he's still in office when he should probably be in jail. It's a joke that the Barrak Obama "home protection plan" probably caused more foreclosures than it saved. It's a joke that the "tarp plan" probably caused more foreclosures that it saved. These people are phucking morons and need to be in the unemployment lines reaping THOSE benefits that they so vehemently bargain for.


I'm not well versed into what happened with Solyndra or any of the other stuff you're referring to.... I never read or heard anything about TARP causing foreclosures though... Either way, I agree we government needs to be held accountable... Unfortunately, that is the press' job and they only seem willing to intervene when it can promote their agenda...

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2) There should be NO PROBLEM with someone taking advantage of the capital gains tax. For one, anyone can do it. The rich and poor alike can invest money for more than one year and pay 15% on it.


Wags already addressed this...

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For two, IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY. Leaving your money invested in the economy is good for the economy. It provides stable, predictable growth. If everyone pulls their money out it causes pandemonium, when people leave their money in provides stability.


Is this what's happening? I don't think it is... If this were the case, why aren't these people leading us out of the downturn? They've got 40% of US economic wealth and how come they aren't kickstarting the economy? It seems to me they are finding ways to keep their money on the sideline rather than take risk and create jobs...

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Also, they're getting this lower tax rate AT A RISK. They're RISKING their money, they're RISKING their gains. They SHOULD get a benefit for it.


They get compensated for their risk already... That's what the gains on capital gains are... Compensation for taking a risk... The higher the risk, the higher an investors required rate of return...

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Take that away and our markets will become more unpredictable, more volatile, and less powerful. People will invest LESS in the US if we take capital gains taxes out of the equation, but you don't hear that from the media.


This is the whole "if you raise taxes on the top 1%, job creators will stop creating jobs" argument repackaged... It's nonsense... Investors are going to be out to make money period... If they keep 8% less of their profit, people aren't going to stop investing because of it... They're still making money...

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All you hear is that Romney and Warren Buffet paid LESS THAT WE DID!!! Which is also complete bullsh!t, because I guaranty you that Warren Buffet paid INTO the system is more than any of us on here makes (and may be more than all of us put together!)


And they made more than we did all together... They should pay more... It's in their best interest... Buffett I think is the only one that gets the fact that if the middle class goes away, the ones who are going to be harmed the most are the top earners... The poor people are already poor... why the hell do they care?

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3) Free trade screwed up the job market and greedy unions are making it worse. Unions had turned "profit" into a dirty dirty word, and they think that business owners should take all of the risk and reap none of the reward. You literally hear them talk about business owners making profits "on the backs of the workers"... Boo phuckin' who!!! that's what they're in business for. That's what they invested MILLIONS for. But no, Unions want to "see the books." They want PROOF that the owner isn't making money and if the owner IS making money the unions want MORE. MORE MORE MORE MORE, until there's nothing left. They did this until business owners were FORCED to look over seas for employees. There WAS a myth that shipping jobs to Mexico would COST companies money by way of lack of quality and shipping costs. That myth is now gone. My parents both worked (one still does) for Fisher Corp. and they produce car parts. Their Mexico plant has BETTER quality numbers than their US plant. Those employees are HAPPIER to work and make around 1/3 of what they make in Michigan. They have pride in their work, we just complain. We feel entitled, we feel like we're "owed" something, which is complete bullsh!t.


My experience with union workers is that they're a bunch of high school kids that never grew up... The ones that work there now anyway... A lot of my family have been a part of the big 3 over the years... The older ones rail against the new employees they got before they retired... My one cousin who still works as a part of the UAW can't stand working with a lot of the people he works with... I agree with you that unions are a part of the problem... They aren't the only problem however...

The biggest problem that I see is that we give corporations a huge amount of control over our political process and they don't care about how things are in this country... They're only focused on creating shareholder wealth... If that means offshoring jobs that could remain here just to increase their dividend payout they will... If it means saving cost of labor bringing in people from India to write code instead of keeping those jobs with Americans they'll do it... The politicians we have don't even care to fight this because they see them as $$ to secure their jobs... It's terrible...

I don't see this changing so I'm doing what I can to ensure that I'll have the ability to survive in the future... I'm planning to have multiple sources of revenue and if/when the US goes to IFRS and they start importing accountants from India to undercut my wages, my GPA and GMAT score will hopefully be enough to get me into a top B-school so I can transition into a job that isn't likely to get outsourced... But I've got the ability to do all this... A lot of people don't... What do they do?


May 6th, 2012, 2:09 am
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