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 My last thought before the draft 
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Trading Avril for an old guy with a huge salary and a pick that will probably only be a depth guy? Come on guys...

As Mayhew has said, they're not in the business of getting rid of their good young players. Cliff just has to come down to earth a bit and then they'll sign him to a long-term deal. Look what happened with Tulloch--Mayhew's a smart guy.


We all know Mayhew is a smart guy. But you are assuming that Avril will come down in his salary demands, and that is something we don't know. It is for that reason that alternatives should be looked at.

And I'm sorry, but Avril hasn't exactly set the world on fire as a defensive end in this league. Yes, he had a good 2011. Whoopee. That doesn't entitle him to look to be paid 8 figures per season over the course of five or six years. If that's what he is demanding, he's being very unrealistic.

So, the question is, do you get something for him now, or do you let him play on the franchise tag this season and watch him walk next season. I can GUARANTEE you that he will want a clause in place for him signing the tag that says that the team can't tag him again next year. If the Lions placate him to that end, they'll get nothing in return for him next year once he leaves in FA.

His market value right now is as high as its ever been. It will only go down from here unless he pulls off a MONSTER year. And that is the premise of moving him. The fact that he's only had one good season, is demanding quite a bit of money more than what he should, and the Lions could get good return for him in trade right now. We have good depth at DE, and there will be some good DEs available to us in this particular draft in round one.

Addition by subtraction.

I'm not saying get rid of Avril at all costs. But if it looks like he's just not going to be realistic (from what I've heard the Lions have made several offers and Avril's agent hasn't even as much as countered). If that's the case, get what you can for him and let him be some other teams headache.


It seems like you're discounting what can happen if he plays on the franchise tender this year. If he plays only ok, we'll be able to sign him to a decent contract. If he plays lights out, then maybe he's worth that big contract? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any kind of mechanism wherein a player coming off his rookie contract can prevent being franchised again. Those are regularly built in to free agent contracts, but it seems like allowing any player to do that would defeat the purpose of the franchise tender.

(I should note that I'm aware we'll have other players to worry about next year besides Cliff, so we might not even franchise him again even if we could)

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April 23rd, 2012, 9:56 am
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
thelomasbrowns wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Trading Avril for an old guy with a huge salary and a pick that will probably only be a depth guy? Come on guys...

As Mayhew has said, they're not in the business of getting rid of their good young players. Cliff just has to come down to earth a bit and then they'll sign him to a long-term deal. Look what happened with Tulloch--Mayhew's a smart guy.


We all know Mayhew is a smart guy. But you are assuming that Avril will come down in his salary demands, and that is something we don't know. It is for that reason that alternatives should be looked at.

And I'm sorry, but Avril hasn't exactly set the world on fire as a defensive end in this league. Yes, he had a good 2011. Whoopee. That doesn't entitle him to look to be paid 8 figures per season over the course of five or six years. If that's what he is demanding, he's being very unrealistic.

So, the question is, do you get something for him now, or do you let him play on the franchise tag this season and watch him walk next season. I can GUARANTEE you that he will want a clause in place for him signing the tag that says that the team can't tag him again next year. If the Lions placate him to that end, they'll get nothing in return for him next year once he leaves in FA.

His market value right now is as high as its ever been. It will only go down from here unless he pulls off a MONSTER year. And that is the premise of moving him. The fact that he's only had one good season, is demanding quite a bit of money more than what he should, and the Lions could get good return for him in trade right now. We have good depth at DE, and there will be some good DEs available to us in this particular draft in round one.

Addition by subtraction.

I'm not saying get rid of Avril at all costs. But if it looks like he's just not going to be realistic (from what I've heard the Lions have made several offers and Avril's agent hasn't even as much as countered). If that's the case, get what you can for him and let him be some other teams headache.


It seems like you're discounting what can happen if he plays on the franchise tender this year. If he plays only ok, we'll be able to sign him to a decent contract. If he plays lights out, then maybe he's worth that big contract? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any kind of mechanism wherein a player coming off his rookie contract can prevent being franchised again. Those are regularly built in to free agent contracts, but it seems like allowing any player to do that would defeat the purpose of the franchise tender.

(I should note that I'm aware we'll have other players to worry about next year besides Cliff, so we might not even franchise him again even if we could)


There have been players in the league that have gotten a written agreement from their team that if they signed the tag tender the team would agree not to tag them the following season. I can't give you exactly who it was, but I know it's been done.

Remember, the player does not have to sign the offer. The player can get that agreement in exchange for his agreement to sign that one year tag offer.

As for next season, I don't think there's any other player who is set to become a free agent that would be considered more valuable than Avril, unless he bombs in 2012.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not saying the Lions SHOULD trade Avril. What I'm saying is that if he is being ridiculous with his contract demands, then the Lions have to consider getting something in return for him (if they can) or else they'll lose him next season in free agency and get nothing in return, regardless of whether he plays well in 2012 or not. I understand that good teams don't make it a habit to trade good, young players away. But it happens, and good teams make every attempt to get something in return.

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April 23rd, 2012, 10:04 am
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Trading Avril for an old guy with a huge salary and a pick that will probably only be a depth guy? Come on guys...

As Mayhew has said, they're not in the business of getting rid of their good young players. Cliff just has to come down to earth a bit and then they'll sign him to a long-term deal. Look what happened with Tulloch--Mayhew's a smart guy.


We all know Mayhew is a smart guy. But you are assuming that Avril will come down in his salary demands, and that is something we don't know. It is for that reason that alternatives should be looked at.

And I'm sorry, but Avril hasn't exactly set the world on fire as a defensive end in this league. Yes, he had a good 2011. Whoopee. That doesn't entitle him to look to be paid 8 figures per season over the course of five or six years. If that's what he is demanding, he's being very unrealistic.

So, the question is, do you get something for him now, or do you let him play on the franchise tag this season and watch him walk next season. I can GUARANTEE you that he will want a clause in place for him signing the tag that says that the team can't tag him again next year. If the Lions placate him to that end, they'll get nothing in return for him next year once he leaves in FA.

His market value right now is as high as its ever been. It will only go down from here unless he pulls off a MONSTER year. And that is the premise of moving him. The fact that he's only had one good season, is demanding quite a bit of money more than what he should, and the Lions could get good return for him in trade right now. We have good depth at DE, and there will be some good DEs available to us in this particular draft in round one.

Addition by subtraction.

I'm not saying get rid of Avril at all costs. But if it looks like he's just not going to be realistic (from what I've heard the Lions have made several offers and Avril's agent hasn't even as much as countered). If that's the case, get what you can for him and let him be some other teams headache.


It seems like you're discounting what can happen if he plays on the franchise tender this year. If he plays only ok, we'll be able to sign him to a decent contract. If he plays lights out, then maybe he's worth that big contract? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any kind of mechanism wherein a player coming off his rookie contract can prevent being franchised again. Those are regularly built in to free agent contracts, but it seems like allowing any player to do that would defeat the purpose of the franchise tender.

(I should note that I'm aware we'll have other players to worry about next year besides Cliff, so we might not even franchise him again even if we could)


There have been players in the league that have gotten a written agreement from their team that if they signed the tag tender the team would agree not to tag them the following season. I can't give you exactly who it was, but I know it's been done.

Remember, the player does not have to sign the offer. The player can get that agreement in exchange for his agreement to sign that one year tag offer.

As for next season, I don't think there's any other player who is set to become a free agent that would be considered more valuable than Avril, unless he bombs in 2012.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not saying the Lions SHOULD trade Avril. What I'm saying is that if he is being ridiculous with his contract demands, then the Lions have to consider getting something in return for him (if they can) or else they'll lose him next season in free agency and get nothing in return, regardless of whether he plays well in 2012 or not. I understand that good teams don't make it a habit to trade good, young players away. But it happens, and good teams make every attempt to get something in return.


Definitely see where you're coming from--maybe it's just a matter of compensation. I know the Pats sometimes let their good guys go, but it always seems like they score a king's ransom in exchange. I'd hope we could do the same.

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April 23rd, 2012, 11:00 am
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Trading Avril for an old guy with a huge salary and a pick that will probably only be a depth guy? Come on guys...

As Mayhew has said, they're not in the business of getting rid of their good young players. Cliff just has to come down to earth a bit and then they'll sign him to a long-term deal. Look what happened with Tulloch--Mayhew's a smart guy.


We all know Mayhew is a smart guy. But you are assuming that Avril will come down in his salary demands, and that is something we don't know. It is for that reason that alternatives should be looked at.

And I'm sorry, but Avril hasn't exactly set the world on fire as a defensive end in this league. Yes, he had a good 2011. Whoopee. That doesn't entitle him to look to be paid 8 figures per season over the course of five or six years. If that's what he is demanding, he's being very unrealistic.

So, the question is, do you get something for him now, or do you let him play on the franchise tag this season and watch him walk next season. I can GUARANTEE you that he will want a clause in place for him signing the tag that says that the team can't tag him again next year. If the Lions placate him to that end, they'll get nothing in return for him next year once he leaves in FA.

His market value right now is as high as its ever been. It will only go down from here unless he pulls off a MONSTER year. And that is the premise of moving him. The fact that he's only had one good season, is demanding quite a bit of money more than what he should, and the Lions could get good return for him in trade right now. We have good depth at DE, and there will be some good DEs available to us in this particular draft in round one.

Addition by subtraction.

I'm not saying get rid of Avril at all costs. But if it looks like he's just not going to be realistic (from what I've heard the Lions have made several offers and Avril's agent hasn't even as much as countered). If that's the case, get what you can for him and let him be some other teams headache.


It seems like you're discounting what can happen if he plays on the franchise tender this year. If he plays only ok, we'll be able to sign him to a decent contract. If he plays lights out, then maybe he's worth that big contract? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any kind of mechanism wherein a player coming off his rookie contract can prevent being franchised again. Those are regularly built in to free agent contracts, but it seems like allowing any player to do that would defeat the purpose of the franchise tender.

(I should note that I'm aware we'll have other players to worry about next year besides Cliff, so we might not even franchise him again even if we could)


There have been players in the league that have gotten a written agreement from their team that if they signed the tag tender the team would agree not to tag them the following season. I can't give you exactly who it was, but I know it's been done.

Remember, the player does not have to sign the offer. The player can get that agreement in exchange for his agreement to sign that one year tag offer.

As for next season, I don't think there's any other player who is set to become a free agent that would be considered more valuable than Avril, unless he bombs in 2012.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not saying the Lions SHOULD trade Avril. What I'm saying is that if he is being ridiculous with his contract demands, then the Lions have to consider getting something in return for him (if they can) or else they'll lose him next season in free agency and get nothing in return, regardless of whether he plays well in 2012 or not. I understand that good teams don't make it a habit to trade good, young players away. But it happens, and good teams make every attempt to get something in return.



M2, I remember players that have done that, but from what I remember its generally done with older players that are on the decline anyhow. I think Richard Seymore or one of the older DEs did something like that. The team has the older players over a barrel, cause if they sit out a year there's no way in hell they'll be in shape the following year. Their career would more or less be toast at that point. I don't think we should do that with Avril. Screw him... We know where he stands, have him sign the damn deal or trade him. Don't offer the "we won't tag you next year option," because that screws us out of any chance we have at trading him if we're stuck with him for this whole year.


April 23rd, 2012, 12:39 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
Cliff Avril had a great year. A lot of DE's are going to have great year's in Detroit and I think it's more of a product of the wide 9 than the actual level of talent. He is replaceable. Trade him while the value is there if we can Mayhew a deal.

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April 23rd, 2012, 1:28 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
Ferris wrote:
Cliff Avril had a great year. A lot of DE's are going to have great year's in Detroit and I think it's more of a product of the wide 9 than the actual level of talent. He is replaceable. Trade him while the value is there if we can Mayhew a deal.


I agree.

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April 23rd, 2012, 1:32 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
so Im curious, and since i think it'll happen round draft time it fits in well here. Does any but myself think that Avril will not be a lion by monday? I just can't help but think he is tradebait and all but gone by this point.

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April 23rd, 2012, 1:37 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
regularjoe12 wrote:
so Im curious, and since i think it'll happen round draft time it fits in well here. Does any but myself think that Avril will not be a lion by monday? I just can't help but think he is tradebait and all but gone by this point.


I hope. I really do.

I love Avrils production, but honestly think Willy Young isnt THAT far behind him.

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April 23rd, 2012, 1:38 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
Ferris wrote:
Cliff Avril had a great year. A lot of DE's are going to have great year's in Detroit and I think it's more of a product of the wide 9 than the actual level of talent. He is replaceable. Trade him while the value is there if we can Mayhew a deal.



Truth? I don't think the Lions trade him. The question is, what can they get for him?

He has refused to sign the tag offer. He has refused some multi-year deals the team has offered. He wants money per year that a team can sign a top end drafted DE to over the course of their rookie contract.

At this point, if the Lions trade him I think they don't get as much as people are thinking. The Lions would be lucky to get a third round pick in return. No team, in my opinion, is going to fork over a first or second round pick for a DE who could be a product of the system in Detroit, who is demanding $10M per year, or more.

This draft is chock full of pretty good pass rushers, at least in theory.

Ingram, Coples, Upshaw, Mercilus, Perry, Branch, Jones, Curry, McClellin.....all are considered sure first rounders, or marginal first rounders.

The more I think on it, the more I feel the Lions won't move Avril because nobody is going to want to inherit his attitude about his worth.

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April 23rd, 2012, 1:47 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
m2karateman wrote:
Ferris wrote:
Cliff Avril had a great year. A lot of DE's are going to have great year's in Detroit and I think it's more of a product of the wide 9 than the actual level of talent. He is replaceable. Trade him while the value is there if we can Mayhew a deal.



Truth? I don't think the Lions trade him. The question is, what can they get for him?

He has refused to sign the tag offer. He has refused some multi-year deals the team has offered. He wants money per year that a team can sign a top end drafted DE to over the course of their rookie contract.

At this point, if the Lions trade him I think they don't get as much as people are thinking. The Lions would be lucky to get a third round pick in return. No team, in my opinion, is going to fork over a first or second round pick for a DE who could be a product of the system in Detroit, who is demanding $10M per year, or more.

This draft is chock full of pretty good pass rushers, at least in theory.

Ingram, Coples, Upshaw, Mercilus, Perry, Branch, Jones, Curry, McClellin.....all are considered sure first rounders, or marginal first rounders.

The more I think on it, the more I feel the Lions won't move Avril because nobody is going to want to inherit his attitude about his worth.


The only thing that has me thinking you're wrong is the latest DE deal (whomever signed last for outrageous money), and the fact that DEs usually take a year or two at least to mature in the NFL before you really know what you have (see Mario Williams, and Vernon Gholson). Any team with moderate cap space left that wants to win now should be willing to at least part with a 2nd rounder for him, IMO.

What pisses me off, however, is that I think we could have gotten a first rounder for him at the start of FA, AND it would have been the "right thing" to do.


April 23rd, 2012, 1:58 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
wjb21ndtown wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Ferris wrote:
Cliff Avril had a great year. A lot of DE's are going to have great year's in Detroit and I think it's more of a product of the wide 9 than the actual level of talent. He is replaceable. Trade him while the value is there if we can Mayhew a deal.



Truth? I don't think the Lions trade him. The question is, what can they get for him?

He has refused to sign the tag offer. He has refused some multi-year deals the team has offered. He wants money per year that a team can sign a top end drafted DE to over the course of their rookie contract.

At this point, if the Lions trade him I think they don't get as much as people are thinking. The Lions would be lucky to get a third round pick in return. No team, in my opinion, is going to fork over a first or second round pick for a DE who could be a product of the system in Detroit, who is demanding $10M per year, or more.

This draft is chock full of pretty good pass rushers, at least in theory.

Ingram, Coples, Upshaw, Mercilus, Perry, Branch, Jones, Curry, McClellin.....all are considered sure first rounders, or marginal first rounders.

The more I think on it, the more I feel the Lions won't move Avril because nobody is going to want to inherit his attitude about his worth.


The only thing that has me thinking you're wrong is the latest DE deal (whomever signed last for outrageous money), and the fact that DEs usually take a year or two at least to mature in the NFL before you really know what you have (see Mario Williams, and Vernon Gholson). Any team with moderate cap space left that wants to win now should be willing to at least part with a 2nd rounder for him, IMO.

What pisses me off, however, is that I think we could have gotten a first rounder for him at the start of FA, AND it would have been the "right thing" to do.


Avril was given the non-exclusive franchise tag, which means he could shop for a better deal and then the Lions and the other team could work out compensation. Given that Avril had the right to negotiate with other teams and nothing came out it, it's doubtful that anyone wanted him enough to offer first-round compensation. Regardless, it sounds to me like Avril will be in Detroit next year. If he reduces his contract demands this week, then a trade might happen before/during the draft but Avril is probably willing to risk playing on the franchise tender this year in hopes that he'll get a bigger payday in 2013.

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April 23rd, 2012, 3:04 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
mwill2 wrote:
Avril was given the non-exclusive franchise tag, which means he could shop for a better deal and then the Lions and the other team could work out compensation. Given that Avril had the right to negotiate with other teams and nothing came out it, it's doubtful that anyone wanted him enough to offer first-round compensation. Regardless, it sounds to me like Avril will be in Detroit next year. If he reduces his contract demands this week, then a trade might happen before/during the draft but Avril is probably willing to risk playing on the franchise tender this year in hopes that he'll get a bigger payday in 2013.


If that's what he wants to do, then why doesn't he sign the offer sheet? What does he gain from his refusal to sign the tag offer? If I'm not mistaken, even if he signs the offer, the Lions can still ink him to a long term deal and then basically rip up the one year deal.

With Avril being allowed to seek a deal from another team, and not even getting a nibble, I have a feeling that HIS demands were too steep in regards to a contract, rather than the Lions demand for compensation being too much. Typically when a player that is franchise tagged and traded thereafter, the team getting him doesn't give the two first round picks to the team trading him. Some lesser deal is agreed to between the two teams and then the player is traded.

And, in truth, we don't exactly know what is going on behind the closed doors in Allen Park. Have the Lions offers been fair? Did some other teams show interest in Avril but the Lions demanded they get their two first rounders and nothing less? We don't know. It seems like Avril is the "bad guy" in all this, but we could all be completely wrong in our assumption. It just seems far more likely that Avril is being the unreasonable one.

But I, like others, am of the opinion that Avril isn't an elite pass rusher and has benefitted from the team he plays on more than his own unique skill set. While none of us would trade Calvin straight up for another receiver in the league, and few would trade Stafford straight up for any but the most elite level QBs (of which there are two I would consider it....Brady and Rogers), I would gladly trade Avril for any one of a number of DEs from other teams, straight up, and KNOW that we'd get the better end of the deal.

He's not a top five DE in the NFL, and therefore shouldn't be compensated as one.

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April 23rd, 2012, 3:56 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
i think avril will settle in on a contract after the draft. he s been playing on 3rd rd money the last 4 years. He should take the 30-40 million or so the Lions will offer him in guaranteed money rather than risk getting hurt for 10 mill. it would be risky for him to play on the 1 year tender. the leverage is on the lions side and mayhew is playing hardball the right way.


April 23rd, 2012, 4:08 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
He isn't signing for the same reason most vets don't sign right away.... the ability to work out on their own with their own people instead of being relegated to the team facilities. You have to remember that the new CBA is very restrictive to how much working out players can do. Maybe Cliff feels he needs to work harder and he wouldn't get the same level at the facilities as he could working with a private company. As long as he doesn't sign, he doesn't have to report and he can't be fined since he's not under contract. If he signs and holds out, he's fined per day.

As for a trade, it won't happen unless its something Cliff has already agreed too. I think he'll sign one of the offer sheets to a long-term deal eventually, but there's no rush to get anything done right now.


April 23rd, 2012, 4:15 pm
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Post Re: My last thought before the draft
njroar wrote:
He isn't signing for the same reason most vets don't sign right away.... the ability to work out on their own with their own people instead of being relegated to the team facilities. You have to remember that the new CBA is very restrictive to how much working out players can do. Maybe Cliff feels he needs to work harder and he wouldn't get the same level at the facilities as he could working with a private company. As long as he doesn't sign, he doesn't have to report and he can't be fined since he's not under contract. If he signs and holds out, he's fined per day.

As for a trade, it won't happen unless its something Cliff has already agreed too. I think he'll sign one of the offer sheets to a long-term deal eventually, but there's no rush to get anything done right now.


Exactly. Under the franchise tag, I'm pretty sure the player is only paid for regular season games. Avril can wait until after the preseason to sign without losing any money, right? At this point, waiting is the best way for him to gain leverage. He can make the team go through camp without him and see if that will motivate the front office to offer a better deal.

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April 23rd, 2012, 5:37 pm
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