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 Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings. 
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
I cant agree with Schwartz being rated No 1. To me that description fits someone who has built and maintained a high level of success for years. Belichik has done this for over a decade now in NE, reinventing the offense and defense many times along the way. They ve been conservative, they ve gone with deep passing, they ve gone with short passing, now using a new system featuring the 2 TEs and his defense changes week to week. I think he still has to be the top coach in the league. Coughlin is clearly in the top 2 - taking teams without overwhelming talent to titles twice. Schwartz has done a good job and is a master delegater, bringing on quality assistant coaches in Gunther/Linehan and helping Mayhew assemble talent. I think the discipline stuff is way overblown in the media especially to people in outside markets that dont watch the games all that closely. Still, Schwartz hasnt done enough to be No 1 on the board. When he loses a coordinator or has to make a tough decision in a late season or playoff game we will see how good he is. I dont feel like he s fully tested yet.


May 6th, 2012, 11:16 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
1st or 5th who cares, he's a great coach and the Lions deserve a great coach and I think they got one.


May 6th, 2012, 1:57 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
If you really think JS is the best coach in the league you are a complete and utter homer.


May 7th, 2012, 12:49 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
Honestly, haven't looked through the whole list - just focused on the top 5 but with Schwartz and Jim Harbaugh in the top five I've gotta pause for a moment. Each has only a couple of seasons under his belt and neither one has guided a team to the SB as of yet. Up and comers as coaches, but not top 5 worthy fo sure.

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May 7th, 2012, 10:06 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
No way Jimmy Swartz is #1. Guy hasnt even won a playoff game...... He's done alot with our leo's but this is BS. #7 no higher in my books

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May 7th, 2012, 10:43 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
49ers wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
I'm not going to say Schwartz deserved to be number one, but the lack of respect is evident simply in the two previous posts. So the team got a few personal fouls? What team doesn't? And excuse me, but sometimes to get respect you have to punch someone in the mouth. Ask any coach in the NFL if they'd take Ndamukong Suh onto their team, and all 31 of them wouldn't hesitate to take him. And nobody will sit there and tell me that every single one of those personal fouls was deserved. Video don't lie. Suh, Pettigrew, Burleson and the rest of the Lions were getting screwed over by poor and biased officiating. Certainly not all the time, but a pretty good amount of time.

And criticizing Schwartz because now the team has talent as opposed to the team he inherited which had little to no talent? WTF is wrong with you?! HE'S PART OF THE REASON THE TEAM DOES HAVE THAT TALENT!!!! But you don't want to credit him for it? I thought you were smarter than that? Guess I was wrong.

You really gotta start re-reading some of these posts before you reply. Neither one of us said some of those things you mentioned.

I know you're a bit of a homer so you may not see it, but the Lions lack of discipline is tops in the league. I'm pretty sure that's the one thing we disagree on.

Keep ranting though. You'd do Schwartz proud.


You didn't mention discipline? I seem to think you did.
And what I said was, penalties happen. The Lions weren't even the most penalized team in the league, but you make it sound like they are nothing but school yard bullies. Not just in that one post, but in numerous posts you've had on these forums. Make no mistake, I want to see the Lions get it under control more as well. But like I said, sometimes you have to punch someone in the mouth to get some respect. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

Now, at the same time I will say that you have given respect to a number of the Lions players and their efforts last season. I don't consider you to be a troll, or someone looking to incite any issues. You are like the rest of us, stating your opinions. However, I did say that I felt Schwartz didn't deserve the number one ranking, didn't I? And I did mention TWO previous posts, which included someone else. In actuality, it was that post that upset me. Claiming a coach benefitted from the talent, and only from the talent, is ridiculous. Were that the case, Washington and Philadelphia would be perennial Super Bowl teams, because in the last few years they have been the team trying to buy a Super Bowl by collecting "talent" via free agency.

But, one thing I will say is that your posts seem to indicate that you feel Schwartz encourages personal fouls to be committed, or that illegal play is encouraged in general. I think that is a falsehood. I think he encourages the team to be aggressive and not take any crap from anybody, and for good reason. The Lions were a doormat for a decade. I can vividly recall the first game last season against Tampa Bay when the announcers around the league were looking at highlight tapes and going "Whoa, these aren't the same old Lions". I think that means mission accomplished.

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May 7th, 2012, 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
m2karateman wrote:
I think that means mission accomplished.


VERY well said.

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May 7th, 2012, 3:27 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
m2karateman wrote:
49ers wrote:
You really gotta start re-reading some of these posts before you reply. Neither one of us said some of those things you mentioned.

You didn't mention discipline? I seem to think you did.

SOME. Of course I mentioned discipline. You're the one who chose to make it sound like I didn't.


m2karateman wrote:
And what I said was, penalties happen. The Lions weren't even the most penalized team in the league, but you make it sound like they are nothing but school yard bullies. Not just in that one post, but in numerous posts you've had on these forums. Make no mistake, I want to see the Lions get it under control more as well. But like I said, sometimes you have to punch someone in the mouth to get some respect. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

Yeah I heard you say this, but the most undisciplined team doesn't mean that they are also the team that is penalized the most. I've watched a TON of football (I'm sure you have too), but when I watch the Raiders and Lions, I cringe at the mental mistakes. They seem to happen early and often. It reminds me of the 2004-5 49ers. It's even worse when you are a team with great talent (Lions), and mistakes cost you during a playoff game (Saints).

I do not think Schwartz benefited from talent. If anything, he's a big reason why there is talent in Detroit again.

m2karateman wrote:
But, one thing I will say is that your posts seem to indicate that you feel Schwartz encourages personal fouls to be committed, or that illegal play is encouraged in general.

If this is the case, then I'm not doing well getting my point across. I think he likes fire and passion in his players, and encourages it fully, but doesn't teach them the proper way to release that passion, nor does he model it. Chasing after Harbaugh was the silliest thing I've seen in a long time, and modeling that behavior is the exact thing I'm talking about. If one of his players chased another player down the sideline, yelling and getting in his face, I think he'd actually encourage it.

** Please note, when I saw Harbaugh jumping up and down like a little girl after we won, I was embarrassed. I was afraid of the backlash I would read the next day, but we were saved by Schwartz doing something I found to be even worse. Schwartz had the upper-hand when Harbaugh did what he did, then quickly lost it. Modeling that behavior proves (to me, anyway) that he doesn't care about discipline.

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May 9th, 2012, 2:56 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
49ers:

this part, BRILIANT and spot on:

Quote:
If this is the case, then I'm not doing well getting my point across. I think he likes fire and passion in his players, and encourages it fully, but doesn't teach them the proper way to release that passion, nor does he model it. Chasing after Harbaugh was the silliest thing I've seen in a long time, and modeling that behavior is the exact thing I'm talking about.

** Please note, when I saw Harbaugh jumping up and down like a little girl after we won, I was embarrassed. I was afraid of the backlash I would read the next day, but we were saved by Schwartz doing something I found to be even worse. Schwartz had the upper-hand when Harbaugh did what he did, then quickly lost it.


jumping to this conclusion though:

Quote:
Modeling that behavior proves (to me, anyway) that he doesn't care about discipline


thats a stretch and where you are getting arguments from. this is akin to saying...I saw him drink water and enjoy it so he care about gatoraid. you are connecting dots that arn't anywhere near each other.

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May 9th, 2012, 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
regularjoe12 wrote:
thats a stretch and where you are getting arguments from. this is akin to saying...I saw him drink water and enjoy it so he care about gatoraid. you are connecting dots that arn't anywhere near each other.

The way I see it, a well disciplined coach would never lose his cool in front of his own team and thousands of people. Will we EVER see Belichick or Tomlin or Coughlin do what Schwartz did that day?

I'm aware that "1 action, a pattern does not make". But this isn't just a small action, this is the type of action that speaks volumes about an individual imo. I also didn't cite all the verbal examples that made me think Schwartz doesn't care so much about discipline. Just watching his post-game interviews and listening to what he said that gave me the impression that he doesn't care as much as he should.

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May 10th, 2012, 5:19 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
I'm probably the #1 Schwartz apologist anywhere, but I agree with 49ers in that Schwartz didn't "model" composure during the handshake gesture, and when you are a leader, modeling behaviors is important. Schwartz sent a message about not taking crap from anyone. The incident was spontaneous but it sends a message nonetheless. It's tough to know for sure what effect this incident had on the team over the course of the season but on Thanksgiving and in the first New Orleans game, we saw a bunch of Lions players refusing to take crap from anyone and the results were negative. However, we saw plenty of games last year in which the Lions were very aggressive--right up to the whistle and occasionally beyond the whistle--and the results were positive.

The Lions weren't #1 in penalties last year, but they were #1 in personal fouls. Still, they were 10-6, made the playoffs, and I doubt anyone could make the argument that personal fouls caused those six losses. Maybe the Thanksgiving game would have turned out differently without the stomp incident but otherwise I don't see how the personal fouls were an obstacle to winning last year. With that said, what people tend to call "undisciplined" I call "aggressive." I think it's funny that the "undisciplined" label is being used as a criticism of Schwartz--I think he wants the team to be aggressive and if there are some penalties, so be it. I think it's a strategy, not a deficiency.

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May 10th, 2012, 10:18 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
mwill2 wrote:
I'm probably the #1 Schwartz apologist anywhere, but I agree with 49ers in that Schwartz didn't "model" composure during the handshake gesture, and when you are a leader, modeling behaviors is important. Schwartz sent a message about not taking crap from anyone. The incident was spontaneous but it sends a message nonetheless. It's tough to know for sure what effect this incident had on the team over the course of the season but on Thanksgiving and in the first New Orleans game, we saw a bunch of Lions players refusing to take crap from anyone and the results were negative. However, we saw plenty of games last year in which the Lions were very aggressive--right up to the whistle and occasionally beyond the whistle--and the results were positive.


I agree, but I will offer this. Schwartz is trying to change the way this team is looked at, both by fans and the players. Would it have been that this took place in San Francisco, I don't think Schwartz chases Harbaugh down the sidelines. But for Harbaugh to have done what he did in Ford Field in front of Detroit fans, I think that is what set off Schwartz. It doesn't make the reaction right and proper, but far more understandable given the circumstances and the effort to change the identity surrounding this franchise. Two wrongs don't make a right. But it's not like Schwartz just exploded without provocation.

mwill2 wrote:
The Lions weren't #1 in penalties last year, but they were #1 in personal fouls. Still, they were 10-6, made the playoffs, and I doubt anyone could make the argument that personal fouls caused those six losses. Maybe the Thanksgiving game would have turned out differently without the stomp incident but otherwise I don't see how the personal fouls were an obstacle to winning last year. With that said, what people tend to call "undisciplined" I call "aggressive." I think it's funny that the "undisciplined" label is being used as a criticism of Schwartz--I think he wants the team to be aggressive and if there are some penalties, so be it. I think it's a strategy, not a deficiency.


I understand that the Lions led the league in personal fouls. But if you go back and look at those personal foul calls, there were more than a few that were absolutely bogus. Hands to the helmet of a quarterback who ducked his head? Hands to the face of an offensive lineman who just punched the D-lineman in the side of the head...TWICE! Personal foul on Pettigrew after Roman Harper kicks him while Pett's on the ground. The list goes on. The Lions got caught retaliating, after the referees refused to flag the other teams for their initial illegal activities, despite standing there and watching it happen. I'm not making excuses, because some of the personal fouls were well deserved. But I agree, the aggressiveness of the team is a strategy. No other coaches before him have encouraged the Lions roster to play as hard as what Schwartz has encouraged. No other coach has tried to change the identity of the team the way Schwartz has. And the strategy has paid dividends. As I've said a few times now, sometimes you have to punch someone in the mouth to get some respect.

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May 10th, 2012, 10:41 am
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
49ers wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
thats a stretch and where you are getting arguments from. this is akin to saying...I saw him drink water and enjoy it so he care about gatoraid. you are connecting dots that arn't anywhere near each other.

The way I see it, a well disciplined coach would never lose his cool in front of his own team and thousands of people. Will we EVER see Belichick or Tomlin or Coughlin do what Schwartz did that day?

I'm aware that "1 action, a pattern does not make". But this isn't just a small action, this is the type of action that speaks volumes about an individual imo. I also didn't cite all the verbal examples that made me think Schwartz doesn't care so much about discipline. Just watching his post-game interviews and listening to what he said that gave me the impression that he doesn't care as much as he should.


so by your own logic Harbaugh doesn't care about discapline either. he too overreacted and looked like a fool in the same game. see how your logic falls apart?

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May 10th, 2012, 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
regularjoe12 wrote:
so by your own logic Harbaugh doesn't care about discapline either. he too overreacted and looked like a fool in the same game. see how your logic falls apart?

What are you talking about? I never talked about Harbs or said that Harbs was or was not big on discipline. I even said that I hated how he acted a fool after the Lions game.

That said, he's not modeling the behavior I would expect and want from a professional NFL coach at all times. His inability to control his jubilation is a form of discipline that I disapprove of, but it also doesn't worry me to the point that it will carry itself onto the field through the players. Cutting Braylon Edwards from the team before playoffs when we were already low on WRs because he wasn't doing what he was asked proves that Harbs will lay down the hammer on negative behavior.

So I'm not afraid of Harbs losing control of the team emotionally, but I am afraid of the players show-boating or excessively celebrating.... which btw has already happened a ton last year. That kind of garbage has to stop.

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May 10th, 2012, 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Jim Schwartz #1 on Head Coach Power rankings.
you are all over the place...Harbs can show emotion and get out of control but is the epitomy of discapline? but not swartz....the guy benches EVERYONE who doesn't perform right, but because he doesn't fire a guy mid season he's not big on discapline?


you are at least going to have to stop play homer and be consistant or this convo is going nowhere.

both coaches have shown signs of overeacting, but one lacks discapline and the other doesn't......yeah no. you cant have it both ways man.

face it, you dont have a leg to stand on with your accusations of Swartz...him and Harbaugh are of the same mold. thats why they clashed. if you cant see that, well you wouldn't be the first who couldn't remove the team colored glasses.

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May 10th, 2012, 3:52 pm
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