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 Lions: One Big Question 

Did the Detroit Lions do enough to address their secondary?
Yes. I'm satisfied. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes. But I'm only a little concerned. 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
No. It's still the biggest weakness. 54%  54%  [ 14 ]
No. And I'll be disappointed if Mayhew doesn't fix it asap. 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 26

 Lions: One Big Question 
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Quote:
billy wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

You are taking an apple and comparing it to the orange I said I was right about.

I was right that our CB's suck.

Serious question, I am not making fun of you or anything: But, do you suffer from ADD? I need to know so that I will know how to respond to you in the future.



really? i think somebody ought to lock this thread before Billy digs his hole any deeper.

billy wrote:

Well, if you had paid enough attention to read what I was saying, I wouldn't have had to ask that question now would I ?


i read it multiple times before i posted a response to your original post. you clearly wrote that you predicted the team would be no better 2011 vs 2010 and then interpreted that as being correct prediction. thats what any logical person would interpret your post as saying. now multiple people have thought the same thing and you think that we or I must have ADD? Sorry pal its time to look in the mirror. I hope you dont dare speak like that to people you know because it is just flat out rude especially when you dont have a leg to stand on.


May 9th, 2012, 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
sweetd20 wrote:
The same thing can be said for just about any position. Everybody always want a Top 5 LT and how many highly drafted LTs have won Super Bowls lately?


Actually I believe most of the recent winners had LTs taken in the 4th or 5th rounds - at least they were drafted. :wink:

I also don't disagree - how many of these teams that have won SuperBowls recently traded up to get the "missing piece" to win a championship? I'm just pointing out how trading the future to grab a perceived "missing piece" is a flawed strategy - the only exception is the QB spot - the position that is the exception to most rules.

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May 9th, 2012, 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
The same thing can be said for just about any position. Everybody always want a Top 5 LT and how many highly drafted LTs have won Super Bowls lately?


Actually I believe most of the recent winners had LTs taken in the 4th or 5th rounds - at least they were drafted. :wink:

I also don't disagree - how many of these teams that have won SuperBowls recently traded up to get the "missing piece" to win a championship? I'm just pointing out how trading the future to grab a perceived "missing piece" is a flawed strategy - the only exception is the QB spot - the position that is the exception to most rules.



I agree, well said.

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May 9th, 2012, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
BillySims wrote:
I didn't say anything about any FA CB's. That's why it was so important to do whatever it took to get 1 in the draft. Everyone has a price. The Lions just wouldn't meet it. 1 starting quality CB, added to what we already have in place, and I tell you, we are a Super Bowl Contender. Without that CB, we are nothing more than a pretender.


Why not? Didn't you say the Lions HAVE to get a CB to be a SB contender? Wouldn't you prefer a known commodity rather than a question mark to propel this franchise into the Promised Land? And if they got one in FA, they likely wouldn't have to give up high picks to get one.

You are DREAMING if you think just one player, at a position like cornerback, is going to turn this team into a Super Bowl contender. I don't know what team you are watching, but it wasn't the cornerback spot that hurt the Lions most of the time last season.

And as far as everyone having a price, teams sometimes don't want to move down that far no matter what the price, don't you understand that? And do you HONESTLY think the Lions should have paid whatever was asked to move up in round one? Really?! Jesus, Billy, get a grip. You would endorse the Lions giving up their entire draft for one unknown commodity? You've been smelling too much diesel....

BillySims wrote:
And don't tell me people wouldn't trade down. Dallas did what it took to get a CB. I know. It would have taken a heck of a lot more for us to get Claiborne. But, there were 4 or 5 CB's that are starting quality that were in this draft. And we failed to do what it took to get 1 of them. Instead, we settled for also rans and nickle backs. We MIGHT get lucky and find a gem in one of them. But, probability is that we didn't.

Dallas didn't "do what it took". They got the bargain of a lifetime. A second round pick to move up from #14 to #6?! That was INCREDIBLE value for them to make that move. St. Louis EASILY could have demanded much, much more. And do you really think Dallas would have given up a butt load of picks to make it happen? I don't think they would have.

Read what I said. I said teams were unwilling to move down TO WHERE THE LIONS WERE!! Teams position themselves strategically, and usually do so with a player in mind, particularly in the first couple rounds. Nobody wanted to move down to where the Lions were sitting, it's that simple. Teams draft players, not picks. Seattle was bound and determined to get Bruce Irvin, and even stated they were hesitant to trade with Philly because they felt Arizona or St. Louis may be targeting him. They weren't about to hand him over to the Jets or Chargers. St. Louis had Michael Brockers on their radar, and had no intention of losing out on him. It's why they were willing to move down from number six for just a second round pick from Dallas. They got something in return, and felt they could get their targeted player at #14. The Jets were ecstatic that Coples was still on the board at #16, and they weren't moving from that spot once he fell into their laps. This is something you need to understand. In the first round teams typically have only two or three players they feel they have a shot at. They won't position themselves out of that shot of getting them, unless a team pays a kings ransom. I, for one, am glad that Mayhew deals smartly, instead of with his head up his @ss.

Examples of overpaying:
San Diego moved down when Atlanta just HAD to have Michael Vick. The Chargers got LT, Atlanta got a dope smoking dog killer.
Atlanta gave up the farm to move up to get Julio Jones, the one piece they felt would propel them deep into the playoffs. Did it work?
Minnesota felt they were just a running back away when they gave up the farm for Hershel Walker, and turned the Dallas Cowboys into a dynasty.
Mike Ditka was POSITIVE that Ricky Williams was THE answer in New Orleans, and gave up everything to get him. Did that work?

I'm sorry Billy, but fixing the safety spot is FAR more important right now than fixing the corner spot. Get a quality safety next to Delmas, and the defense improves much more. Then go get the cornerback of your dreams. The Lions still have a ways to go, and one player is not the answer. The Lions didn't draft one safety this season, and you don't see me going on and on about it.

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May 9th, 2012, 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
The same thing can be said for just about any position. Everybody always want a Top 5 LT and how many highly drafted LTs have won Super Bowls lately?


Actually I believe most of the recent winners had LTs taken in the 4th or 5th rounds - at least they were drafted. :wink:

I also don't disagree - how many of these teams that have won SuperBowls recently traded up to get the "missing piece" to win a championship? I'm just pointing out how trading the future to grab a perceived "missing piece" is a flawed strategy - the only exception is the QB spot - the position that is the exception to most rules.


I would love to endorse ya here pablo....but thats how you end up with jamarcus Russel! hehehehe

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May 10th, 2012, 1:15 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
regularjoe12 wrote:
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
The same thing can be said for just about any position. Everybody always want a Top 5 LT and how many highly drafted LTs have won Super Bowls lately?


Actually I believe most of the recent winners had LTs taken in the 4th or 5th rounds - at least they were drafted. :wink:

I also don't disagree - how many of these teams that have won SuperBowls recently traded up to get the "missing piece" to win a championship? I'm just pointing out how trading the future to grab a perceived "missing piece" is a flawed strategy - the only exception is the QB spot - the position that is the exception to most rules.


I would love to endorse ya here pablo....but thats how you end up with jamarcus Russel! hehehehe


LOL - I just went back and looked at some of the threads from 2007 and noticed a couple of observations. First, there were a number of folks on the JR bandwagon, let me throw C02 under the bus.

C02 wrote:
BTW - Russell lost NINE POUNDS since the combine in regards to people saying he was out of shape and overweight. The guy is dedicated and a stud.


Sly said he wouldn't mind drafting him, and so on. I'm connected with JR because my thought process in the early days of LB was 1) Millen is an idiot (proven true), 2) they hadn't had a franchise QB in 50 years (via evidence), and they weren't going to be a contender until they got a franchise QB (as witnessed by 2012). Knowing that Millen was going to kill the franchise, my thought was that if he drafted a QB with the Lions firsst pick every year he would eventually hit on one and we would have this piece to build around once he left. I stand by this sound logic and am glad the new regime benefited from Millen's failures by drafting a QB #1 overall when the fans were clamoring for a LB instead.

BTW - so many of you CJ fans wanted Joe Thomas instead (go back and read the threads)...

Yes, my strategy would have netted Brady Quinn in 2007 and here is how it would have played out 2000-2001 (given that the Lions would have taken the next avail QB)

2001 Drew Brees (18 - Jeff Backus)
2002 Joey Harrington (same)
2003 Byron Leftwich (2 - Charles Rogers)
2004 Ben Roethlisberger (7 - Roy Williams)
2005 Aaron Rodgers (10 - Mike Williams)
2006 Matt Leinart (9 - Ernie Simms)
2007 Brady Quinn (2 - Calvin Johnson)
2008 Joe Flacco (17 Gosder Cherilus)

2009 - the new GM/Coach take the big leap

Just think, we could have had our 3 QBs as Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers, and Ben Roethlisberger had we followed my model and I would have won GM of the year - instead we had a QB depth chart of Kitna, Culpepper and Orlovsky. Just sayin, logic was sound even with a few misses in there (and I stated it was a 50/50 proposition to hit on a QB anyways)

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May 10th, 2012, 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Pablo wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Pablo wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
The same thing can be said for just about any position. Everybody always want a Top 5 LT and how many highly drafted LTs have won Super Bowls lately?


Actually I believe most of the recent winners had LTs taken in the 4th or 5th rounds - at least they were drafted. :wink:

I also don't disagree - how many of these teams that have won SuperBowls recently traded up to get the "missing piece" to win a championship? I'm just pointing out how trading the future to grab a perceived "missing piece" is a flawed strategy - the only exception is the QB spot - the position that is the exception to most rules.


I would love to endorse ya here pablo....but thats how you end up with jamarcus Russel! hehehehe


LOL - I just went back and looked at some of the threads from 2007 and noticed a couple of observations. First, there were a number of folks on the JR bandwagon, let me throw C02 under the bus.

C02 wrote:
BTW - Russell lost NINE POUNDS since the combine in regards to people saying he was out of shape and overweight. The guy is dedicated and a stud.


Sly said he wouldn't mind drafting him, and so on. I'm connected with JR because my thought process in the early days of LB was 1) Millen is an idiot (proven true), 2) they hadn't had a franchise QB in 50 years (via evidence), and they weren't going to be a contender until they got a franchise QB (as witnessed by 2012). Knowing that Millen was going to kill the franchise, my thought was that if he drafted a QB with the Lions firsst pick every year he would eventually hit on one and we would have this piece to build around once he left. I stand by this sound logic and am glad the new regime benefited from Millen's failures by drafting a QB #1 overall when the fans were clamoring for a LB instead.

BTW - so many of you CJ fans wanted Joe Thomas instead (go back and read the threads)...

Yes, my strategy would have netted Brady Quinn in 2007 and here is how it would have played out 2000-2001 (given that the Lions would have taken the next avail QB)

2001 Drew Brees (18 - Jeff Backus)
2002 Joey Harrington (same)
2003 Byron Leftwich (2 - Charles Rogers)
2004 Ben Roethlisberger (7 - Roy Williams)
2005 Aaron Rodgers (10 - Mike Williams)
2006 Matt Leinart (9 - Ernie Simms)
2007 Brady Quinn (2 - Calvin Johnson)
2008 Joe Flacco (17 Gosder Cherilus)

2009 - the new GM/Coach take the big leap

Just think, we could have had our 3 QBs as Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers, and Ben Roethlisberger had we followed my model and I would have won GM of the year - instead we had a QB depth chart of Kitna, Culpepper and Orlovsky. Just sayin, logic was sound even with a few misses in there (and I stated it was a 50/50 proposition to hit on a QB anyways)


Here's the problem with your logic. You can discount Brees, because he didn't "catch fire" until his last season in SD. The Lions would have continued with their QB picking, via your strategy, and had Harrington and Leftwich the following two years. Brees would have still been a seen as a shaky starter, Harrington can't make a throw, and Leftwich can't stay healthy. In addition we passed on our left tackle.
So we continue and take Big Ben, who largely benefitted by starting behind a great offensive line and a pretty good running game. Which QB at that point do we jettison? Brees, Harrington or Leftwich? And at that point, we really don't have any receivers. Roy Williams is passed over, Charles Rogers is in the trainers room with a busted collar bone smoking MJ and eating chips, and we have no left tackle.

Now we've taken four QBs and don't know what we got. Where does it end?

I, for one, was in favor of taking Backus, and I think he panned out.
I wanted Quentin Jammer over Harrington.
I wanted Andre Johnson over Charles Rogers.
I wanted Ben Roethlisberger in 2004.
I wanted Jamaal Brown over Mike Williams.
I wanted Jay Cutler over Ernie Sims.
I wanted Calvin Johnson because I thought Roy sucked.
And since we still didn't have a QB in 2007, I liked the idea of getting Flacco in 2008, but would have preferred if the Lions didn't trade down and would have taken Branden Albert as their starting LG.

Not all my picks would have worked out, but we would have had a LT, a decent CB, a great pair of WRs, either one of two pretty decent QBs, an injury prone RT (J. Brown) and a really good LG.

Not too shabby. We also would have had Justin Tuck over Stanley Wilson. (that one still burns the s*** out of me).

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May 10th, 2012, 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
hell I was all over Curry co I can't preach. but I do wanna say I LOOOOVE this:


Quote:
First, there were a number of folks on the JR bandwagon, let me throw C02 under the bus.




Im dying laughin over here!!!

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May 10th, 2012, 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Quote:
Yes, my strategy would have netted Brady Quinn in 2007 and here is how it would have played out 2000-2001 (given that the Lions would have taken the next avail QB)

2001 Drew Brees (18 - Jeff Backus)
2002 Joey Harrington (same)
2003 Byron Leftwich (2 - Charles Rogers)
2004 Ben Roethlisberger (7 - Roy Williams)
2005 Aaron Rodgers (10 - Mike Williams)
2006 Matt Leinart (9 - Ernie Simms)
2007 Brady Quinn (2 - Calvin Johnson)
2008 Joe Flacco (17 Gosder Cherilus)

2009 - the new GM/Coach take the big leap

Just think, we could have had our 3 QBs as Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers, and Ben Roethlisberger had we followed my model and I would have won GM of the year - instead we had a QB depth chart of Kitna, Culpepper and Orlovsky. Just sayin, logic was sound even with a few misses in there (and I stated it was a 50/50 proposition to hit on a QB anyways)


Well your strategy is an interesting concept but what really happens when a quarterback is picked high in the draft is that it is just the first domino of many to make that QB productive. One consequence is that you have to give that QB and the players you selected aroud him time to develop. Harrington IMO never showed any flashes of potential as an NFL QB and I was done with him after his rookie season. I knew he wouldnt make it but even after 4 miserable seasons the Lions werent really ready to pull the plug on Joey until newcomers Marinelli/Martz said so. I think the problem you run into with drafting a QB high is then knowing when to cut your losses if its not working out. I would rather draft someone like Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russel and pretty much definitively know that Ive got nothing within a season or two than have a borderline guy like Harrington that I hold onto for a much longer amount of time and invest 4 years of playing time, draft picks and FA into. You have to hit on the early QB picks - the misses hold the team down much lower in reality than your philosophy acknowledges


May 10th, 2012, 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
Remeber - this strategy was built knowing that Millen was the GM. My entire goal was to have a potential franchise QB on the roster by the time he got fired. Given we didn't have one for 50 years, it would have made the Millen years at least less painful to have a solid signal caller as a result and let the new regime build around him.

As per Mike's thoughts - again, you aren't taking Millen into account so that is a totally different ballgame in hindsight. That said, I'm trading two or three of my stud QBs post Millen and would have 8 first round draft picks in two years and build around him that way! :)

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May 10th, 2012, 4:49 pm
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Post Re: Lions: One Big Question
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