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 Prison System: do they work right? 
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Post Prison System: do they work right?
Quote:
TheRealWags wrote:
First off, this is rapidly approaching the need to be moved to Off-Topic....


wjb21ndtown wrote:
Nothing teaches someone that society simply does NOT accept what they're doing like jail does.
I'm quite sure there are plenty of bank robbers, rapists, murders, etc that keep on doing what got them there in the first place, yet it doesn't seem to stop them from being release early *cough* "for good behavior" *cough*.

Perhaps its time as a society to start working on actually rehabilitating people, instead of just throwing them in prison and forgetting about them until their 6 x 6 (or whatever size) cell is needed for the next person.

[/threadjack]



What's your point? That they should stay in longer, despite conforming and acting appropriately? What measure, then, would you use to shorten their sentence and give them a shot at public life? None? Just let them rot? I really don't see your point here.


I think he's implying that more can be done once they are locked away......but Im speaking for him. I just used this as an excuse to start it's own thread.

CRAP! I thought I started this in Off Topic...can you move it wags....my bad

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May 14th, 2012, 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
regularjoe12 wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Nothing teaches someone that society simply does NOT accept what they're doing like jail does.
I'm quite sure there are plenty of bank robbers, rapists, murders, etc that keep on doing what got them there in the first place, yet it doesn't seem to stop them from being release early *cough* "for good behavior" *cough*.

Perhaps its time as a society to start working on actually rehabilitating people, instead of just throwing them in prison and forgetting about them until their 6 x 6 (or whatever size) cell is needed for the next person.

[/threadjack]
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What's your point? That they should stay in longer, despite conforming and acting appropriately? What measure, then, would you use to shorten their sentence and give them a shot at public life? None? Just let them rot? I really don't see your point here.
I think he's implying that more can be done once they are locked away......but Im speaking for him. I just used this as an excuse to start it's own thread.
That is pretty much what I'm saying joe.
It seems as though in our society once someone is found guilty and sentenced to prison / jail, that's it. Once they're there, there isn't much honest effort in rehabilitating them. Really who could blame the system though, especially with their for-profit prisons. Gotta make sure there's still someone to sit there (actually, a certain number of someones) so they can get paid, right?

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May 14th, 2012, 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
Prisons should do more for job training, drug rehabilitation, etc., but the problem is you can't "force" someone to participate in a program. You can't "make" someone work, and you can't "force" someone to want to get off of drugs. I agree that more should be available, but there is a large percentage of prisoners that wouldn't take advantage of it if it were.


May 14th, 2012, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Prisons should do more for job training, drug rehabilitation, etc., but the problem is you can't "force" someone to participate in a program. You can't "make" someone work, and you can't "force" someone to want to get off of drugs. I agree that more should be available, but there is a large percentage of prisoners that wouldn't take advantage of it if it were.
Granted I understand what you're saying (there has to be a want in order to quit / conquer demon / get better), but if they're in prison 24/7/365, then why couldn't they be sent to mandatory counseling sessions? One would think that prison might be the ONLY place where you could force someone to get help. You never know, maybe someone's personal story will help them "see the light" so-to-speak. Lots of good can come from group counseling sessions IMO.

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May 14th, 2012, 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Prisons should do more for job training, drug rehabilitation, etc., but the problem is you can't "force" someone to participate in a program. You can't "make" someone work, and you can't "force" someone to want to get off of drugs. I agree that more should be available, but there is a large percentage of prisoners that wouldn't take advantage of it if it were.
Granted I understand what you're saying (there has to be a want in order to quit / conquer demon / get better), but if they're in prison 24/7/365, then why couldn't they be sent to mandatory counseling sessions? One would think that prison might be the ONLY place where you could force someone to get help. You never know, maybe someone's personal story will help them "see the light" so-to-speak. Lots of good can come from group counseling sessions IMO.


Honestly, it's because certain members of Congress and otherwise think that it is "cruel and unusual" punishment to force people to work, force them into job training, and force them into treatment programs. Even where people are guaranteed lighter sentences for training programs, and guaranteed to be let out early for going to a treatment facility they still CHOOSE to avoid the programs and rot in prison. I know it sounds crazy to you and I, but some people really do choose to be in prison. They like not having any responsibilities, they like having someone else taking care of them, and they like being a big fish in a little pond (being affiliated with popular, perhaps gang affiliated prison people, opposed to being a societal derelict on the outside).


May 14th, 2012, 4:48 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
Prisons don't work, because of what wjb said about "cruel and unusual punishment" thinking. People are against the death penalty because of that clause. People are against work gangs because of that clause. There are people that feel making the prisoners wear pink overalls is cruel and unusual punishment.

I'm sure there are some that think any punishment is cruel and unusual, because there are sure enough people out there who refuse to punish their kids appropriately when they act up.

Prisons as correctional facilities have failed, and failed big time, all over the world. England has a higher rate of repeat offenders than the United States. Their prison population has increased 66% in the last 15 years.

The original purpose for prisons was not to correct behavior through "programs" or psychological evaluations. It was intended to separate social deviants from the rest of the lawful society. Their everyday freedoms were removed from them as punishment of their crimes. The problem now is that the prisoners enjoy things that not all of us can. Their healthcare is better than most working people. They get cable. They have little to no responsibilities to care for themselves or their belongings. And they enjoy more of a social life in prison than most homeless folks do out on the streets.

Take away the beds, the jump suits, the cable, the workouts, the "programs", the healthcare, and anything else. Put them in a cell wearing their underwear and make them sleep on a cold, concrete floor. Give them just enough food to survive their incarceration, and if they get sick...well, physician heal thy self. Allow them one shower a week. And if they act up, let the guards beat the living sh*t out of them for doing so. If they belong to a prison gang, move them and allow them absolutely no visits from anyone.

All of the programs and benefits haven't worked, let's go hardcore.

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May 14th, 2012, 6:43 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
A couple of thoughts here:

1) Almost all criminals (except where there are 'life w/o parole' penalties - such as Michigan) are getting out of prison early due to overcrowding. So a real life example (from a situation I'm familiar with) a guy sexually molested his 14 year old daughter. Rape. And was sentenced to 11 years in jail. (Personally, I don't think that's even enough - but let's assume that's an acceptable punishment). He served a little less than 4 years for the crime and was released. Reason: They have to make room for the next criminal. We just do not have enough jail space. It's really that simple! Therefore...

2) You can't even have a conversation about rehabilitation where criminals know that they'll only serve 25-33% of their sentence. In other words, if you're a child molester / rapist; 4 years doesn't teach you any new habits / beliefs. It's just not long enough to change your behavior and make you feel like you've wasted enough of your life to want to change. (If you even wanted to change).

3) Furthermore, I just believe some people are evil. It's wired into their DNA. I don't really care so much how they got so twisted; they just are! And they're NEVER going to change. So it really doesn't matter to me that they were beaten, or, molested, or, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, or, never got a break, etc. They're just the sh!t that was left over when God made some other people and he threw it together as an experiment. Some of that left over garbage rises above and accomplishes truly great things - others become Hitler, Manson or Dahmer.

4) It shouldn't be a mystery that back before prisoners had rights - when there was such a thing as chain gangs for example - then people rarely returned to prison. So it is a statistical FACT that if you lock people up long enough and treat them badly enough then they will will learn from that experience and not repeat their crimes and not end up back in prison. There is overwhelming evidence that the best way to rehabilitate is to make prisoner as uncomfortable as possible for as long as possible and that turns out to be the very best rehabilitation program.

5) So my philosophy is don't spend a dime on rehabilitation until we build more prisons and have a constitutional amendment that strips the criminals of some of their rights. Because we KNOW that works and there's not enough evidence that rehabilitation programs do.

6) So the reality is that the prisons do work. It's just that the liberals have failed to let the system work.

7) BTW, if you want to sharply decrease the AIDS epidemic in America you quarantine the AIDS prisoners together. The fastest growing AIDS demographic is black America due to the fact that they contract HIV in prison and spread it around once they do get out. I'd also be OK if every HIV / AIDS infected prisoners received a big tattoo across their forehead when they get released from jail so the rest of the public can better identify them. And therein lies another deterrent to being in jail. It would work way better than rehabilitation.

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May 14th, 2012, 8:49 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
What was Arapaio's return rate again?

I understand the point and agree that much should be done to rehab these guys and girls. I don't believe humiliation is the key, but neither is making the prison system so enjoyable that it's a good place to go once you get used to it. 3 hots and a cot, medical care, education, weight rooms, dental care, and all the legal assistance the State can pay for.

What happened to work farms, chain gangs, and the like? These men and women owe a debt to society, and a dedicated plan of rehab should exist, if it doesn't already.

My thoughts on this:

1. First year is one a chain gang. REQUIRED
work includes any detail necessary for the greater good of society, and helpful to the community. Make them mandatory 8 hour shifts 6 days a week, and evening time post meal, is classes (GED, College)
examples:
1. road clean up
2. road repairs
3. vacant house demolition or remodeling
4. manual labor (corn detassling, farming, ranching, dairy)

2. After their stint on the chain gang, begin full time job skills training like college 8 hours per day with more evening classes.

3. If the above requirements are met without major disciplinary infractions, begin moving candidates into job specific environments. For this to happen there would need to be companies that are legit, who will employ the prisoners and pay them a wage. The wage will be taxed as usual, but also require the prisoner to pay for his "keep", court costs, and penalties.

4. Post Sentence Release: Transition the Candidate back into society by integrating them into the work force with said companies who specifically there to employ these people. Allow for them to build up a work history that they can use to transition into other main stream companies, showing a track record of good behavior and work ethics.

5. For those candidates who are having a harder time getting along with the path to progress, reinstate the penitentiary. Meals consist of Bread, Water, and Ensure for nutrition. No television, no radio, no exercise, no FRILLS or BENEFITS. Cells are rudimentary and basic, for isolation only. This illustrates the benefits of going along with the program and participating with society as compared to being rewarded for bad behavior.

6. My knowledge of the Prison System is limited at best so my recommendation is to have the stage system. I know it exists now but it could be used better. Stage 1 is entry level, Stage 2 is transition level, Stage 3 is full compliance with the program. Stage 1a is entry level for the penitentiary, hoping to illustrate the difference between the two. Stage 2a is for the full blown defiant, and exists as stated above. Stage 3a is for the long term defiant, and is only upgrade with basic food stuffs.

It seems harsh, but Prison has become to soft because we're worried about the inner child, and fuzzy rabbits and stuff. In a society where we don't teach personal responsibility anymore, so the fault belongs to someone else, we need to reinstitute the difference between right an wrong.

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May 15th, 2012, 9:07 am
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
I invite anyone who critizes liberal prison system reforms to read up on Norway's prison system.


May 15th, 2012, 1:56 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
What was Arapaio's return rate again?

I understand the point and agree that much should be done to rehab these guys and girls. I don't believe humiliation is the key, but neither is making the prison system so enjoyable that it's a good place to go once you get used to it. 3 hots and a cot, medical care, education, weight rooms, dental care, and all the legal assistance the State can pay for.

What happened to work farms, chain gangs, and the like? These men and women owe a debt to society, and a dedicated plan of rehab should exist, if it doesn't already.

My thoughts on this:

1. First year is one a chain gang. REQUIRED
work includes any detail necessary for the greater good of society, and helpful to the community. Make them mandatory 8 hour shifts 6 days a week, and evening time post meal, is classes (GED, College)
examples:
1. road clean up
2. road repairs
3. vacant house demolition or remodeling
4. manual labor (corn detassling, farming, ranching, dairy)

2. After their stint on the chain gang, begin full time job skills training like college 8 hours per day with more evening classes.

3. If the above requirements are met without major disciplinary infractions, begin moving candidates into job specific environments. For this to happen there would need to be companies that are legit, who will employ the prisoners and pay them a wage. The wage will be taxed as usual, but also require the prisoner to pay for his "keep", court costs, and penalties.

4. Post Sentence Release: Transition the Candidate back into society by integrating them into the work force with said companies who specifically there to employ these people. Allow for them to build up a work history that they can use to transition into other main stream companies, showing a track record of good behavior and work ethics.

5. For those candidates who are having a harder time getting along with the path to progress, reinstate the penitentiary. Meals consist of Bread, Water, and Ensure for nutrition. No television, no radio, no exercise, no FRILLS or BENEFITS. Cells are rudimentary and basic, for isolation only. This illustrates the benefits of going along with the program and participating with society as compared to being rewarded for bad behavior.

6. My knowledge of the Prison System is limited at best so my recommendation is to have the stage system. I know it exists now but it could be used better. Stage 1 is entry level, Stage 2 is transition level, Stage 3 is full compliance with the program. Stage 1a is entry level for the penitentiary, hoping to illustrate the difference between the two. Stage 2a is for the full blown defiant, and exists as stated above. Stage 3a is for the long term defiant, and is only upgrade with basic food stuffs.

It seems harsh, but Prison has become to soft because we're worried about the inner child, and fuzzy rabbits and stuff. In a society where we don't teach personal responsibility anymore, so the fault belongs to someone else, we need to reinstitute the difference between right an wrong.


I guaranty you that if you start demanding prisoners do "this," and demanding they do "that" all you're going to get is a huge fight on your hands. What do you do when they don't listen? Beat them? :roll:

You have to provide incentive for people to work, and you have to make them want to. They've been fighting their whole life, one more battle isn't going to change them. They need to be shown why they should work, why they should conform, and how society operates. The current system fails them because it doesn't teach them anything, your system would fail for the same reason. Your system would be akin to teaching a kid that fighting is wrong by beating them... It just doesn't work...

The system also has to accept that some people just like being in prison. You can try to "rehabilitate" everyone, but some people will refuse change. They need to simply be held to rot. They can't function in society, perhaps try to find the greatest utility for them that they can handle, but they're more or less going to have to be treated like unruly 6 year olds.


May 15th, 2012, 2:16 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I guaranty you that if you start demanding prisoners do "this," and demanding they do "that" all you're going to get is a huge fight on your hands. What do you do when they don't listen? Beat them? :roll:

You have to provide incentive for people to work, and you have to make them want to. They've been fighting their whole life, one more battle isn't going to change them. They need to be shown why they should work, why they should conform, and how society operates. The current system fails them because it doesn't teach them anything, your system would fail for the same reason. Your system would be akin to teaching a kid that fighting is wrong by beating them... It just doesn't work...

The system also has to accept that some people just like being in prison. You can try to "rehabilitate" everyone, but some people will refuse change. They need to simply be held to rot. They can't function in society, perhaps try to find the greatest utility for them that they can handle, but they're more or less going to have to be treated like unruly 6 year olds.


wjb, if what you say were true then the rate of recidivism wouldn't be lower in yesteryear and the rehabilitation programs in place would be working. They're not! The recidivism is much higher today when compared to when prisoners were treated badly.

You don't have to beat people. Our military does a fine job of breaking people down and getting them to conform. The same techniques can be / should be used in prison.

What you're saying sounds nice, but it simply doesn't fit the facts on hand.

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May 15th, 2012, 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
LionFan57 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I guaranty you that if you start demanding prisoners do "this," and demanding they do "that" all you're going to get is a huge fight on your hands. What do you do when they don't listen? Beat them? :roll:

You have to provide incentive for people to work, and you have to make them want to. They've been fighting their whole life, one more battle isn't going to change them. They need to be shown why they should work, why they should conform, and how society operates. The current system fails them because it doesn't teach them anything, your system would fail for the same reason. Your system would be akin to teaching a kid that fighting is wrong by beating them... It just doesn't work...

The system also has to accept that some people just like being in prison. You can try to "rehabilitate" everyone, but some people will refuse change. They need to simply be held to rot. They can't function in society, perhaps try to find the greatest utility for them that they can handle, but they're more or less going to have to be treated like unruly 6 year olds.


wjb, if what you say were true then the rate of recidivism wouldn't be lower in yesteryear and the rehabilitation programs in place would be working. They're not! The recidivism is much higher today when compared to when prisoners were treated badly.

You don't have to beat people. Our military does a fine job of breaking people down and getting them to conform. The same techniques can be / should be used in prison.

What you're saying sounds nice, but it simply doesn't fit the facts on hand.



What I'm saying LF, is that you can't beat prisoners today, so the system doesn't work.

That said, IMO prisoners today are much more deranged and much worse off than "prisoners of yesteryear." I'd argue that you couldn't get away with the same system in today's world. You would need a whole swat team guarding the "chain gain" with any type of drug lord in it (and by drug lord I simply mean any huge drug dealer). Criminals are much wealthier, less respectful, and more ruthless than in the past. I'm sorry, I just don't think it would work.

The techniques of the military work only because people do NOT want a dishonorable discharge on their record, and they're hoping to get a career out of it. Prisoners don't have the same mind-set or goals.

People advocated on here for NFL draft picks like PacMan to be treated like "soldiers" and "broken down," but the fact remains, you can't do it where the desire to belong isn't there. The same way you can't take a rich, spoiled 22 yr old and break him with military techniques, you can't take a prisoner that doesn't want to be there and break him with a technique that involves his voluntary cooperation.


May 15th, 2012, 3:16 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
I understand you can't "beat" them, but you can deprive them, therefore bringing them to the table. I agree though that force isn't necessarily the right way, but it is the quickest.

I like the idea of showing them the incentives for wanting to change, but I can only see that force would work. It's a broken system, that is bureaucratic, and therefore, doomed to fail ultimately.

As for Finland, I hear they've done much along the lines of medications, and Psychological counseling because personal responsibility has all but been removed from the equation.

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May 15th, 2012, 8:11 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I understand you can't "beat" them, but you can deprive them, therefore bringing them to the table. I agree though that force isn't necessarily the right way, but it is the quickest.

I like the idea of showing them the incentives for wanting to change, but I can only see that force would work. It's a broken system, that is bureaucratic, and therefore, doomed to fail ultimately.

As for Finland, I hear they've done much along the lines of medications, and Psychological counseling because personal responsibility has all but been removed from the equation.


The other problem with the idea of showing them the incentives of wanting to change is the typical prisoner mindset. Most of them are lazy by nature. They are in prison because of their unwillingness to be a "working stiff". They prefer the get-rich-quick approach of the criminal life. Drug dealing, robbing stores, robbing citizens, etc. is the life they know and the life they WANT. Why make $10/hour working your butt off for someone else when a gun and an aggressive mindset could get you a whole bunch more than that is a much shorter period of time?

I still say that if someone has been convicted and jailed for more than two violent felonies, they should be executed. I think strike three is a good indication that this person has no place in a lawful society, isn't likely to change, and shouldn't be a sponge on our tax dollars.

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May 16th, 2012, 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Prison System: do they work right?
I wonder how much mentoring could play into helping these men, who come from fatherless homes? Hoosier Youth Challenge has a decent program, as do other states, that pairs trouble youth up with screened adult males for the purpose of mentoring. I wonder how that could play into an adult on adult term.

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May 16th, 2012, 10:37 pm
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