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 The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited. 
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Pablo: what's to reconsider? Truth has now become relevant to the situation instead of foundational, so if it's right in my eyes then it must be true right? What was it that was said in another thread, 40 men of different backgrounds, wrote for over 400 years, and it includes scores of prophecies that have ACTUALLY come true, and yet it is irrelevant because it is a "living" document, which means that it reads differently for me than it does you, and it reads differently for me the next time I read it, should the Lord have something else to show me.

So you presume to be able to scrutinize my faith? You are now an authority on how my God speaks to me, and deals with me, and leads me, or has led me, and saved me? You have walked in my shoes, lived my life, made my choices, and so that allows you the insights into how I interpret the Bible. Wow, I wish I would have known that later, because it could have saved me a lot of heartache and suffering.

Oh wait, standing on the outside looking in, and casting judgment based upon your perspective, isn't there something, um, uh, wrong with that? I used to have a salesman friend of mine that had a slogan, " I can tell a lot of about beef by sticking my head up a cow's #$% but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."

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June 25th, 2012, 5:12 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Pablo wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
I'm curious... Is there anything that could happen (new discoveries in science or history perhaps) to make you guys reconsider your beliefs?


They don't reconsider, they simply reframe their beliefs or interpretation of the Bible - it is the only way for faith to survive any scrutiny. They also won't put timeframes on anything, by design.


We don't put dates on Bible prophecy because only the Father knows the date and time of the events in his plan. We can only know the season. I am just a voice in the wilderness announcing that, IMHO, we are definitely in the season for the War of Gog and Magog.

Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish,


Yet he lets people, by the tens of thousands, perish every day. So I guess GOD doesn't love us very much if this is the measure we are going by?


GOD does not let anyone perish! EVER! We choose to perish with our own free will when we continually reject GOD. Perishing is the cost of sin. We will all die because of original sin. But, Christians will not EVER perish. If you do not wish to perish, you need to just believe GOD and quit fighting him.

Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


You mean first amazing proof, at least in 2000+ years!


Yes. His last proof was witnessed by thousands of people that watched, mouth agape, as he ascended into heaven, more than 30 days after he had come back from the dead.


June 25th, 2012, 5:20 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Actually, I take my last comment of my last post back.

His last proof was the re-establishing of the Nation of Israel after nearly 2 thousand years of not being a nation. Jesus himself prophesied it would happen in the parable of the fig tree in Mathew chapter 24.


June 25th, 2012, 5:25 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I used to have a salesman friend of mine that had a slogan, " I can tell a lot of about beef by sticking my head up a cow's #$% but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."


And he stole that line from the movie, " Tommie Boy".


June 25th, 2012, 5:28 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Let me start off by saying I believe in God and Christ.

However, I have to wonder out loud...why would God save Israel from attack by several countries at once, but He chooses not to save them from individual suicide bombers? They have wrought near as much devastation in that country as any war could.


Because suicide bombers are individuals acting upon their free will to do evil. If GOD were to stop them, then they would not really have free will.

I believe the only reason GOD will intervene in the War of Gog and Magog is to serve notice that his written word, ( The Bible ), is true. And it will also be a final wake up call to all who will believe in Jesus and repent of their sins. This event, (IMHO), is the last prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the rapture. It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish, that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


Is not the company of soldiers individuals, acting on behalf of individuals? We all have free will to refuse to enlist, or to act on orders. Why would God save Israel, a country that has wrought incredible amounts of evil on this Earth, as much as any other nation? Yes, even as much (or more so) than Germany, Russia, China or North Korea.

And why bring up the Rapture? That is the invention of mankind, and exists no place in the Bible.

And saying that God loves us so much he is going to stop one war on behalf of one country is foolish. Is God that much of a racist?

I ask these questions not because I don't believe in God, but because there is flawed logic in what your answer contains.

Let me also make this statement, at the risk of angering you and W4C (which is not my intent), I don't believe the Bible to be Gods word. I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories and writings of men, who stated or thought they were acting on behalf of God. But there have been murderers, rapists and sadists who claim they were acting on behalf of God as well.

If God needs to speak to us, He doesn't do it through written word and countless interpretations of that word. He will do it through our hearts. It is through your heart that you accepted Him, not through His written words. Many, many have read His word (Bible), but not all have accepted Him. I believe that believing the Bible to be His word is a form of idolatry, no different than praying to a saint, the Virgin Mary, or to the cross.

Just my $0.02.

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June 25th, 2012, 9:27 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
If the scripture is meant to be interpreted literally, why:

1) Does it refer to the nations as Gog, Magog, Gomer, etc instead of using modern names like Germany, Turkey, etc?

2) Does it say the soldiers will be on horseback and use swords and shields? Is that really what will happen? I would expect machine guns.

3) Do you think that your interpretation might be wrong, but the bible is always right. If the scripture is always right shouldn't it be relatively easy to understand and see in real life?


June 25th, 2012, 9:36 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
M2K, I'm not angered or upset, in fact my heart is rejoicing for the opportunity to discuss such things with you, Pablo, Blue, UK, Augshum, and anyone else who's open to discuss it. Whether y'all like it or not, I am praying for you daily or as near to it as I can, because I hope that one day you will come to know the Lord as I do, and understand why I've been so stedfast in my beliefs.

Having said that I thought of this verse in response to your comment:

Hebrews 1:1-4, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

For the longest time, and like many cultures, words were not written down, no one really had time or education to do so. But story time, was a time of teaching and entertainment, and was handed down from one generation to the next.

As societies have advanced we have developed language and written word and ways to record them and so on. The Bible is the WORD of God, divinely inspired upon 40 some men over 1600 years I think it was, from 4 different continents. Each story interlaces and works with the others and is complete. The fruits of this combined story do not lay out a do this or else theology as some religions. They explain a story, how we were created, who we were to be, what happened, what has happened because of what happened, and how God chose for himself a people out of all other peoples, and how he has been trying to win us back ever since. Then you bring in the 2nd half of the book which starts with the redemptive services of Jesus, who paid a blood penalty to reconcile us to God. Consider it a get out of death penalty free card, all you need to do is ask for it and receive it. Then after that story comes the story of how we "non-Jews" were brought in by God's great mercy, so that no one would be left behind unless they chose to.

God has a people that He chose for himself, they weren't the best, brightest, or most successful people, but they were the smallest, group started from one man, Abram and Sarai. He chose this man to father a nation, the man made a mistake in fathering a rival nation through Hagar and she too became a mother of nations, but the brothers hate each other. Men have free will, we were given this great gift, because robots don't feel, they're programmed. How can you have real love and relationship if you don't give the other person the option of rejecting you? It's the ultimate gamble right? So God took that gamble and created all that we know, and the deceiver side tracked it. But this did NOT Surprise God, it just opened the way for him to work out thousands of years of plans.

You know I could go on, but this is really deep, and can get confusing, and I'm here at work and need to focus on that. But please keep asking, as long as Billy doesn't mind in his thread.

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June 26th, 2012, 1:52 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Pablo: what's to reconsider? Truth has now become relevant to the situation instead of foundational, so if it's right in my eyes then it must be true right?


So if a terriorist kills innocent people, but it is right in his eyes it must be true/right? This, my friend, is very scary thinking.

Truth can be both situational and foundational, but you are talking about a truth once considered (and by all intentions) written to be foundational, that has continually been cracked at the foundations so it must be reconsidered in a situational way to remain true to believers. Again, it is a moving target - which is a very slippery slope for the "truth".

WarEr4Christ wrote:
So you presume to be able to scrutinize my faith? You are now an authority on how my God speaks to me, and deals with me, and leads me, or has led me, and saved me? You have walked in my shoes, lived my life, made my choices, and so that allows you the insights into how I interpret the Bible. Wow, I wish I would have known that later, because it could have saved me a lot of heartache and suffering.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize your Faith was above scruitiny. I have no idea how your God speaks to you, I'd like to think it is in the manner that M2K points out - through the heart - yet you continue to throw out Biblical passages and your interpretation of them at us. Perhaps a two way street is in order here?

WarEr4Christ wrote:
Oh wait, standing on the outside looking in, and casting judgment based upon your perspective, isn't there something, um, uh, wrong with that? I used to have a salesman friend of mine that had a slogan, " I can tell a lot of about beef by sticking my head up a cow's #$% but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."


Is there something wrong with casting judgement from the outside? Let's see, if someone doesn't believe in your God he is judged isn't he? An eternal life in hell, now isn't that the ultimate judgement. In fact, a good portion of Faith is wrapped around judgement.

As for your friends slogan, an interesting perspective. Obviously someone who has no clue that there are many angles to "judge" something on. I would let your friend know that the butcher for whom he is taking his word has much better ways of "judging" beef than sticking his head up a cow's #$%. Then again, I'm wondering how your friend judges the quality of chicken? :lol:

BTW - you continue to state how "The Bible is the WORD of God, divinely inspired upon 40 some men over 1600 years I think it was, from 4 different continents" - you neglect to state how political the compilation of the books was (certainly not "divinely inspired"), how many other writers/books have been excluded, and quite frankly how "incomplete" the Bible is because of that. For example, the The Infancy Gospel of Thomas talks about a 5-year-old Jesus who makes 12 sparrows out of mud, after clasping his hands they come to life and fly away. Seems like a pretty important part of the picture to me, but perhaps you think the story is complete going from an infant Jesus to a 30-year-man with nothing in-between. Didache is also an important manuscript IMO, for some reason left out. I'm sure you are very familiar with The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Mary, and many others.

Then again, I'm standing on the outside looking in so what do I know. I've studied a number of ancient Judeo-Christian texts in part of my quest to get a more "complete" picture than the Bible alone portrays. You have obviously also studied these texts and dismissed each since you feel the canon is fully complete without The Letter of Clement and tons of other texts that have been left out. Interesting, I'd like to know how intellectually you came to such a conclusion?

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June 26th, 2012, 2:41 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Perhaps we should take this to the Christianity thread so as not to side track this one. I'll respond over there...

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June 26th, 2012, 6:05 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Perhaps we should take this to the Christianity thread so as not to side track this one. I'll respond over there...


A thread like this is always going to get side tracked... 8)

No response necessary, I just felt compelled to reply and am pretty sure I know how you will respond...

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June 26th, 2012, 6:21 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
m2karateman wrote:
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Let me start off by saying I believe in God and Christ.

However, I have to wonder out loud...why would God save Israel from attack by several countries at once, but He chooses not to save them from individual suicide bombers? They have wrought near as much devastation in that country as any war could.


Because suicide bombers are individuals acting upon their free will to do evil. If GOD were to stop them, then they would not really have free will.

I believe the only reason GOD will intervene in the War of Gog and Magog is to serve notice that his written word, ( The Bible ), is true. And it will also be a final wake up call to all who will believe in Jesus and repent of their sins. This event, (IMHO), is the last prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the rapture. It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish, that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


Is not the company of soldiers individuals, acting on behalf of individuals? We all have free will to refuse to enlist, or to act on orders. Why would God save Israel, a country that has wrought incredible amounts of evil on this Earth, as much as any other nation? Yes, even as much (or more so) than Germany, Russia, China or North Korea.


Were you ever in the military? A company of Soldiers is a company. They act as 1 or they get individuals killed.

m2karateman wrote:
And why bring up the Rapture? That is the invention of mankind, and exists no place in the Bible.


The word Rapture does not appear in the Bible. But, a thorough reading of 1st and 2nd Thesalonians will enlighten you to the truth of the matter.


m2karateman wrote:
And saying that God loves us so much he is going to stop one war on behalf of one country is foolish. Is God that much of a racist?


GOD is not a racist. He accepts repentance from anyone who would repent. Regardless of race. And I thank GOD that he did not choose us to be his chosen people. He has dealt pretty harshly with Israel. I think he chose Israel precisely because they were/are an evil/hardheaded race of people. Who better to make the example of?

m2karateman wrote:
I ask these questions not because I don't believe in God, but because there is flawed logic in what your answer contains.

Let me also make this statement, at the risk of angering you and W4C (which is not my intent), I don't believe the Bible to be Gods word. I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories and writings of men, who stated or thought they were acting on behalf of God. But there have been murderers, rapists and sadists who claim they were acting on behalf of God as well.

If God needs to speak to us, He doesn't do it through written word and countless interpretations of that word. He will do it through our hearts. It is through your heart that you accepted Him, not through His written words. Many, many have read His word (Bible), but not all have accepted Him. I believe that believing the Bible to be His word is a form of idolatry, no different than praying to a saint, the Virgin Mary, or to the cross.

Just my $0.02.


I can't argue about your beliefs. You are entitled to them. All I can do is to continue praying and trying to convince you of the truth of GOD's inspired, written word we call the Bible.


June 27th, 2012, 12:24 am
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Let me start off by saying I believe in God and Christ.

However, I have to wonder out loud...why would God save Israel from attack by several countries at once, but He chooses not to save them from individual suicide bombers? They have wrought near as much devastation in that country as any war could.


Because suicide bombers are individuals acting upon their free will to do evil. If GOD were to stop them,then they would not really have free will.

I believe the only reason GOD will intervene in the War of Gog and Magog is to serve notice that his written word, ( The Bible ), is true. And it will also be a final wake up call to all who will believe in Jesus and repent of their sins. This event, (IMHO), is the last prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the rapture. It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish, that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


free will, that is interesting. IF the bible spells everything out then how is there free will.

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June 27th, 2012, 8:38 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
frok wrote:
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Let me start off by saying I believe in God and Christ.

However, I have to wonder out loud...why would God save Israel from attack by several countries at once, but He chooses not to save them from individual suicide bombers? They have wrought near as much devastation in that country as any war could.


Because suicide bombers are individuals acting upon their free will to do evil. If GOD were to stop them,then they would not really have free will.

I believe the only reason GOD will intervene in the War of Gog and Magog is to serve notice that his written word, ( The Bible ), is true. And it will also be a final wake up call to all who will believe in Jesus and repent of their sins. This event, (IMHO), is the last prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the rapture. It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish, that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


free will, that is interesting. IF the bible spells everything out then how is there free will.

Frok


Because you have the free will to believe or disbelieve.


June 27th, 2012, 8:45 pm
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Frok: Do you remember those story books in school that you started reading and then you got to a certain point and at the bottom it asked you two questions. For this to happen turn to page 34, for that to happen turn to page 76? Based on your decision the story changed and had a different outcome right?

This is a pretty good example of our lives, and the inclusion of God. Everyday we are given x amount of time to do x amount of things. Throughout that day we have decisions to make and the decisions we make affect our day. That's the exercise of free will, and the Christian walk is accepting the relationship with Jesus Christ, and then learning to recognize him throughout the course of your life and learning to deal with and handle things as he did. Along the way you'll find that your failures and character flaws get honed out. And you start to see a lot of perspective changes and so on. It's actually pretty cool, but hard to explain.

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June 28th, 2012, 12:43 am
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Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Let me start off by saying I believe in God and Christ.

However, I have to wonder out loud...why would God save Israel from attack by several countries at once, but He chooses not to save them from individual suicide bombers? They have wrought near as much devastation in that country as any war could.


Because suicide bombers are individuals acting upon their free will to do evil. If GOD were to stop them, then they would not really have free will.

I believe the only reason GOD will intervene in the War of Gog and Magog is to serve notice that his written word, ( The Bible ), is true. And it will also be a final wake up call to all who will believe in Jesus and repent of their sins. This event, (IMHO), is the last prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the rapture. It is also worth noting that it is just 1 more proof that GOD loves us so much and is not willing that anyone should perish, that he gives everyone 1 more amazing proof of his existence.


Is not the company of soldiers individuals, acting on behalf of individuals? We all have free will to refuse to enlist, or to act on orders. Why would God save Israel, a country that has wrought incredible amounts of evil on this Earth, as much as any other nation? Yes, even as much (or more so) than Germany, Russia, China or North Korea.


Were you ever in the military? A company of Soldiers is a company. They act as 1 or they get individuals killed.


Really? Then explain how some soldiers go off and act on their own in committing criminal acts. Explain how the shooting took place in Texas. Explain the numerous rapes taking place in the Middle East theater of conflict, despite the fact that the soldiers know this is against the rules and can endanger their lives and the lives of the others in their company.

Please spare me the brotherhood speech of the military. Soldiers have a mind and the freewill God has given everyone else to either follow orders or disregard them as they see fit.

BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
And why bring up the Rapture? That is the invention of mankind, and exists no place in the Bible.


The word Rapture does not appear in the Bible. But, a thorough reading of 1st and 2nd Thesalonians will enlighten you to the truth of the matter.


I understand that the event is not called Rapture by name, but there are also different interpretations of exactly what is meant by what is said, in Thessalonians, Matthew and Revelations regarding all this. I guess my saying it exists no place in the Bible was a poorly worded statement. My apologies.

BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
And saying that God loves us so much he is going to stop one war on behalf of one country is foolish. Is God that much of a racist?


GOD is not a racist. He accepts repentance from anyone who would repent. Regardless of race. And I thank GOD that he did not choose us to be his chosen people. He has dealt pretty harshly with Israel. I think he chose Israel precisely because they were/are an evil/hardheaded race of people. Who better to make the example of?


And God is set to make an example of Israel by saving them? That's pretty confusing.

BillySims wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
I ask these questions not because I don't believe in God, but because there is flawed logic in what your answer contains.

Let me also make this statement, at the risk of angering you and W4C (which is not my intent), I don't believe the Bible to be Gods word. I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories and writings of men, who stated or thought they were acting on behalf of God. But there have been murderers, rapists and sadists who claim they were acting on behalf of God as well.

If God needs to speak to us, He doesn't do it through written word and countless interpretations of that word. He will do it through our hearts. It is through your heart that you accepted Him, not through His written words. Many, many have read His word (Bible), but not all have accepted Him. I believe that believing the Bible to be His word is a form of idolatry, no different than praying to a saint, the Virgin Mary, or to the cross.

Just my $0.02.


I can't argue about your beliefs. You are entitled to them. All I can do is to continue praying and trying to convince you of the truth of GOD's inspired, written word we call the Bible.


I appreciate that Billy. I am not questioning anyones faith. Being strong in your faith is not something to knock someone about, so I have respect for you, W4C, and even Pablo because despite all of you having different viewpoints, so to speak, your resolute firmness in what you believe is admirable.

Now, my question is this. Why is it believed that the Bible is God's inspired Word, when it is well known that men wrote those words, and you and W4C have both said God gave man freewill, which we all know has been used for both good and evil? Why is it accepted that this collection of letters, books and writings is the act of men acting TRULY on behalf of God? Why were books written on these same subjects left out, but some included that are of questionable origin? Why would God choose multiple people to write about different events throughout history, and not simply choose one, as He did with Moses and the Ten Commandments?

I understand it is called Faith for a reason. And I understand that the Bible and its contents and creation were inspired by the acts of God and Jesus Christ. But taking what the contents of the Bible are and trying to say they explain everything in exact detail is questionable, imho. We all know mankind has a penchant for inflating facts and conveniently manipulating things to suit their individual purpose. We all know mankind has a general lust for power, and that it can cause them to do unthinkable things. And we all know that languages do not seemlessly translate from one to another without some "filling in" of certain words or phrases that may disrupt the original intent or meaning. Given the large number of translations done, the timeframe of the writings from when the events actually took place, and the decisions to leave some books and writings out and include others is what leads me to question how one could take the Bible and say "this is the truth, and is correct in its every word".

To me it's no different than someone seeing a painting of Christ as having straight blond hair and blue eyes, and saying "yes, that's exactly what he looked like" (and I do know someone who exclaimed that). Only recently have documentaries and other TV shows begun showing Jesus as what he likely actually looked like....dark haired, likely curly hair and dark eyes, like most people would have looked like born into that region.

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June 28th, 2012, 11:16 am
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