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 Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this? 
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
kdsberman wrote:
But Jared Allen "f-king" DESERVES the money! Compare the numbers.

And remember the last time we had a defensive end get 11 sacks (Cory Redding) and right away we signed him to a contract cuz everyone thought we had something super special.....ya...


Sorry. NOT EVERYONE thought Cory Redding was super special. Maybe you thought he was. But, most only considered him average.

I am stunned by all the venom being spewed at a guy that has gotten better every year since we drafted him, has never gotten arrested, has been a great team player, and never been a distraction of any kind.

But, heaven forbid that he thinks he's worth more than was offered to him. He is evil and should break a hip when he picks up his morning paper. I bet most of you think your employer is underpaying you. How selfish of you.

NFL players play with injuries that would make you take medical leave for months at a time. I can't blame Cliff for betting on himself. If he were an unrestricted free agent this year, I guarantee you, he would have been paid somewhere between $12-15M/year. He knows it. And so does Mayhew. Mayhew offered what he could this year. Avril opted to bet on himself and wait until next year. The Lions will be able to pay more next year. And he will prove again that he is worth it. In the meantime, Avril will just work out on his own. There is zero sense in risking an injury in a meaningless preseason game. He will be back immediately after the last preseason game ready to rock some QB's.

I just think a few of you are being a bit hypocritical and jealous that you never had the chance at $30M.


July 21st, 2012, 1:35 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
BillySims wrote:
I just think a few of you are being a bit hypocritical and jealous that you never had the chance at $30M.


If I had the chance at a couple million I would be happy. These guys act as if they dont get enough money so they cant live a happy life. UNREAL.

Me? Im happy as hell when I get holiday pay at work and get a few extra HUNDRED (yes, hundred) dollars in my paycheck. Maybe ill take my fiance out for a nice dinner. Or get my a new shirt. Whatever.

But because im not getting the millions extra, I wont be able to buy everyone in my family a new car, or get this....AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE. Yes, that HAS been mentioned.

If Avril feels he is worth more than the $30m he got offered. Great. But hes not getting it now. So what is holding out gonna do? Is he thinking, "Boy I showed them!"? If he was about the TEAM, he would have signed his tag the second negotiations closed and will be reporting to camp, aiming to PROVE he is worth more than what he got offered. THEN...he can say "I showed them" at the end of the season if he gets his sack total up there.

Either way, GO LIONS.

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July 21st, 2012, 7:36 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
he hasnt held out yet, let this thing play out a little more. avril knows that 10.6 is a lot more than he s made his entire career to this point. he may miss a few days but i doubt he holds out much longer than a week. he needs to posture a little bit so that he doesnt play under the franchise year after year


July 21st, 2012, 7:44 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
Im sorry but these comments are just flat out wrong. Avril isnt saying he is too good for 3yr/30million he s saying that the option of playing 1 yr at 10.6 million and then going back on the free agent market is better to him. He has no obligation to play for the Lions at lower than market value and get an unusually short contract compared to what other DEs his age have received - most of which have received at least 4 yrs and at 11-12 million per year.

Jared Allen doesnt complain about money? Really, then why the f... did he leave the Chiefs? Maybe it had something to do with the 6yrs/73mill deal he got from a different team in 2008 (instead of playing on a 8.8 mill tender)? Why did he say this about the Chiefs management when he left?

Quote:
Allen said his reason for leaving is simple to identify. “His name was Carl Peterson. You can write that in caps. Obviously, I had a problem with (owner) Clark Hunt, too, because he chose Carl over me, huh? When everything went down there, I didn’t appreciate being lied to. I was told I’d get (a contract) extension and everything, and the way things played out, my biggest thing was, ‘Listen, I don’t lie to you guys. I show up and bust my tail for you. Don’t lie to me.’ … It’s tough to go and give your all for someone like that.”


You guys make it sound like Avril is the only player that has wanted to get paid his market value. Vincent Jackson played on an $11million tender w SD instead of taking a lowball offer and then got a 5yr/$55million deal the next year. Nobody here thinks Avril is looking to do something similar.

Sorry fellas but you guys are either blind - not looking around and seeing what is happening around the league - or just homers that expect bc its your team that Avril should play on a discounted offer.


Legend, if Avril wants to turn down the Lions offer, then fine. But then to choose to not show up for camp, or even discuss not showing up for camp, and saying there's a fear of being hurt, it what generates the anti-Avril sentiment. And comparing Jared Allen to Cliff Avril is just not going to cut it. There's no comparison in talent. There WAS a market for Jared Allen, and big market for his services. I don't recall any stories of teams banging down the doors in Allen Park to get Cliff Avril. He had a chance to negotiate with other teams.

3 years at $30M is not a "discounted offer". That's just ridiculous to say. It was a more than fair offer. Do you honestly think he's worth more than that? I don't. And most of the posters on this forum don't. If there is a team out there willing to pay him that much more, why didn't he find them and negotiate something with them when he had the chance? Answer: because there was no team that felt he was worth it. No team wanted to trade picks for him, AND have to pay him whatever it was he was seeking in terms of a contract.

He wants his $10.6M this year, and play the market again next season, then fine. But don't get all pouty about it and hold out from camp because you didn't get your way. That approach is what my biggest problem is with Avril right now.

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July 22nd, 2012, 8:04 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
No 1) kdsberman brought up jared allen saying allen doesnt care about money when allen left the chiefs who werent going to pay him what he wanted and then thrashed the entire front office in the press. im not saying cliff avril is jared allen.

No 2) it doesnt matter what you or i think he s worth, it matters what he can get on the free market. ive pointed out the contracts handedout around the league before but for the sake of continuing a circular argument

cameron wake - 4 years/49 million, age 30
trent cole - 4yrs/48million, age 29 (turns 30 this season)
charles johnson - 6yrs/72 million, age 25 when signed
tamba hali - 5 yrs/58million, age 27 when signed
calais campbell - 5 yrs/55million, will be 26 this season


July 22nd, 2012, 11:42 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
No 1) kdsberman brought up jared allen saying allen doesnt care about money when allen left the chiefs who werent going to pay him what he wanted and then thrashed the entire front office in the press. im not saying cliff avril is jared allen.

No 2) it doesnt matter what you or i think he s worth, it matters what he can get on the free market. ive pointed out the contracts handedout around the league before but for the sake of continuing a circular argument

cameron wake - 4 years/49 million, age 30
trent cole - 4yrs/48million, age 29 (turns 30 this season)
charles johnson - 6yrs/72 million, age 25 when signed
tamba hali - 5 yrs/58million, age 27 when signed
calais campbell - 5 yrs/55million, will be 26 this season


I'd take Cameron Wake, Trent Cole, or Tamba Hali over Avril the second I had the chance.

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July 22nd, 2012, 1:59 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
The Legend wrote:
No 1) kdsberman brought up jared allen saying allen doesnt care about money when allen left the chiefs who werent going to pay him what he wanted and then thrashed the entire front office in the press. im not saying cliff avril is jared allen.

No 2) it doesnt matter what you or i think he s worth, it matters what he can get on the free market. ive pointed out the contracts handedout around the league before but for the sake of continuing a circular argument

cameron wake - 4 years/49 million, age 30
trent cole - 4yrs/48million, age 29 (turns 30 this season)
charles johnson - 6yrs/72 million, age 25 when signed
tamba hali - 5 yrs/58million, age 27 when signed
calais campbell - 5 yrs/55million, will be 26 this season


I'd take Cameron Wake, Trent Cole, or Tamba Hali over Avril the second I had the chance.


This. Plus it is widely known that both Carolina and Arizona overpaid their respective charges. Wake, Cole and Hali are all more consistent, better talent players. Johnson was a knee jerk reaction signing and the league was shocked (as was I) that the Panthers could do such a dumb thing. Campbell's signing is an even big head scratcher to me. He's nothing special.

It comes down to this...did the Lions disrespect Avril with the deal they offered him? I don't think so. I think they offered him what they could afford. What else did he want from them? Sure, they could have made the contract longer and backloaded the hell out of it. But why should the Lions do that just to ensure they keep him here a couple more years? He hasn't PROVEN himself to be worthy of such a contract.

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July 22nd, 2012, 2:48 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
the only reason you say that is bc they played longer. avril s first 4 years are actually better than tamba hali's and close to cole's. i dont think wake, johnson or campbell are better than avril. given trent cole's age id rather have avril than cole at the end of that deal. the lions offer wasnt disrespectful but it was below market, i could see avril signing for 5 yrs/50 million next season or more and because of that i cant fault him for rejecting a 3yr/30million deal when he could secure double that by this time next year.


July 22nd, 2012, 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
The Legend wrote:
the only reason you say that is bc they played longer. avril s first 4 years are actually better than tamba hali's and close to cole's. i dont think wake, johnson or campbell are better than avril. given trent cole's age id rather have avril than cole at the end of that deal. the lions offer wasnt disrespectful but it was below market, i could see avril signing for 5 yrs/50 million next season or more and because of that i cant fault him for rejecting a 3yr/30million deal when he could secure double that by this time next year.


I honestly also think that's the case. My guess is that he wants a 5+ year deal worth $10 mill a year and maybe 70% of it guaranteed. We might all be wrong, maybe he didn't care too much about the money but just wanted a longer deal.

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July 22nd, 2012, 5:35 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
The Legend wrote:
the only reason you say that is bc they played longer. avril s first 4 years are actually better than tamba hali's and close to cole's. i dont think wake, johnson or campbell are better than avril. given trent cole's age id rather have avril than cole at the end of that deal. the lions offer wasnt disrespectful but it was below market, i could see avril signing for 5 yrs/50 million next season or more and because of that i cant fault him for rejecting a 3yr/30million deal when he could secure double that by this time next year.


I honestly also think that's the case. My guess is that he wants a 5+ year deal worth $10 mill a year and maybe 70% of it guaranteed. We might all be wrong, maybe he didn't care too much about the money but just wanted a longer deal.


Avril himself said he was OK with the 3 year deal. The hangup was guaranteed money. Without knowing exactly how the salary cap will be affected in the next couple years, why would the Lions guarantee more money? The contract offered him, at 3 years, would have meant he could come out of the deal still in his prime (29) rather than on the downside of his career (over 30) by most NFL teams standards.

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July 23rd, 2012, 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
I don't have any problem with Avril's position.

I think the Lions' offer was fair, and he would have been more sensible to sign it, but it doesn't matter what I think: it's what the market thinks that matters.

And whilst the non-exclusive tag means he could test the market to some extent, this was under the cloud of having to give up a pick to get him (as well as a fat contract) and with no guarantee that an agreed deal with Cliff in principle would become an actual deal (lions could always match). Both of those things will have negatively affected his ability to get a deal vs what he could achieve as a free agent. So I don't believe that the market has been tested yet or given us our answer.

Next year we will find out - was Cliff right, he can do better, or were the Lions right, and he ought to have signed this offer? No point getting upset over it, IMO. I'd love for him to be a Lion. But I'm a fan of the team, he's an employee. He's as entitled to seek the best deal for himself as I am from my employers. It's business.


July 24th, 2012, 10:12 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
I'd like to see us get away from the Wide 9, and see what that does to his stats. If he can get 9+ sacks per year in a conventional D scheme that also stops the run, I'm all for giving him a long-term deal. Until then I think he's easily replaceable with a second round pick or current talent on the team, period. Let someone else over pay him.


July 24th, 2012, 11:12 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Vaguely related to the Avril situation: Ronnell Lewis will start camp on the PUP list.

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July 24th, 2012, 11:36 am
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I'd like to see us get away from the Wide 9, and see what that does to his stats. If he can get 9+ sacks per year in a conventional D scheme that also stops the run, I'm all for giving him a long-term deal. Until then I think he's easily replaceable with a second round pick or current talent on the team, period. Let someone else over pay him.


Until we can be confident in the safeties making tackles, switching to a 4-3 as our base defense would be a great idea, and still using some wide 9 and 5-2 on 3rd downs would help.

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July 24th, 2012, 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I'd like to see us get away from the Wide 9, and see what that does to his stats. If he can get 9+ sacks per year in a conventional D scheme that also stops the run, I'm all for giving him a long-term deal. Until then I think he's easily replaceable with a second round pick or current talent on the team, period. Let someone else over pay him.


Until we can be confident in the safeties making tackles, switching to a 4-3 as our base defense would be a great idea, and still using some wide 9 and 5-2 on 3rd downs would help.


You better include linebackers in there. It's the OLBs that are supposed to fill the gaps left off tackle by the Wide 9 set. Most of the time last year, they didn't get it done. Safeties in the Detroit defense are support, not first line run stoppers, like the linebackers. While I agree our safeties need to be better in their tackling, our linebackers need to step up their game as well.

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July 24th, 2012, 1:20 pm
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