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 Joe Paterno has died 
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
the only problem with that is that its so EASY to say what you WOULD do...doing is something different all together.


Im not in any way shape or form endosing JoePa....but i think its downright reduclous to judge a man who has done so much good so harshly when A: it wasn't him being a monster, and B: you really dont know what he did know.


it's easy to say "oh I would have done this" when soemthing horrific happens. it's quite another to be in the persons shoes and actually do it though when it occures though.

ever heard the saying "hindsight is 20/20"?

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February 6th, 2012, 6:52 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
regularjoe12 wrote:
the only problem with that is that its so EASY to say what you WOULD do...doing is something different all together.


Im not in any way shape or form endosing JoePa....but i think its downright reduclous to judge a man who has done so much good so harshly when A: it wasn't him being a monster, and B: you really dont know what he did know.


it's easy to say "oh I would have done this" when soemthing horrific happens. it's quite another to be in the persons shoes and actually do it though when it occures though.

ever heard the saying "hindsight is 20/20"?


The problem with this logic is that applies to everything. "You would've driven drunk too" "you would've killed that man too."

He harbored a pedophile. He helped cover up his crimes. He directly contributed to the destruction of dozen of lives. On top of that, all those men that were abused are more likely to themselves become abusers, thereby contributing to an evil circle of abuse and destruction.

Literally the only thing worse Paterno could've done is cover up a murder. Do people not understand this?


July 24th, 2012, 9:10 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
Blueskies wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
the only problem with that is that its so EASY to say what you WOULD do...doing is something different all together.


Im not in any way shape or form endosing JoePa....but i think its downright reduclous to judge a man who has done so much good so harshly when A: it wasn't him being a monster, and B: you really dont know what he did know.


it's easy to say "oh I would have done this" when soemthing horrific happens. it's quite another to be in the persons shoes and actually do it though when it occures though.

ever heard the saying "hindsight is 20/20"?


The problem with this logic is that applies to everything. "You would've driven drunk too" "you would've killed that man too."

He harbored a pedophile. He helped cover up his crimes. He directly contributed to the destruction of dozen of lives. On top of that, all those men that were abused are more likely to themselves become abusers, thereby contributing to an evil circle of abuse and destruction.

Literally the only thing worse Paterno could've done is cover up a murder. Do people not understand this?


FWIW - when this thread was started it wasn't yet uncovered that Joe Pa did in fact know this disgusting behavior was going on, hid it from the NCAA, and allowed it to perpetuate.

There's no speculation involved, I know for a fact that I would have, at the very least, fired that piece of shet and gotten him removed from the University in all respects.


July 24th, 2012, 9:25 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
Yeah, I wonder if anyone changed their mind's post-FBI report?

At any rate, upper management is always responsible. That's why when you're at the top, you get paid the big bucks. You're supposed to know what's going on, and even if you can't, you're supposed to have found lieutenants that you can trust to keep you informed.


July 24th, 2012, 9:29 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
Blueskies wrote:
Yeah, I wonder if anyone changed their mind's post-FBI report?

At any rate, upper management is always responsible. That's why when you're at the top, you get paid the big bucks. You're supposed to know what's going on, and even if you can't, you're supposed to have found lieutenants that you can trust to keep you informed.


I did... I really couldn't believe that Joe Pa knew and intentionally covered this up. Absolutely disgusting. I thought he may have had some speculative hearsay or something, but nothing concrete. I was literally disgusted when I found out he knew. He's just as guilty for every instance after gaining that knowledge, IMO. He could have stopped it with a phone call, but did nothing. He is a horrible person, and everyone that complains about him losing his record and statue morally bankrupt.


July 24th, 2012, 9:50 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
Quote:
I did... I really couldn't believe that Joe Pa knew and intentionally covered this up. Absolutely disgusting. I thought he may have had some speculative hearsay or something, but nothing concrete. I was literally disgusted when I found out he knew. He's just as guilty for every instance after gaining that knowledge, IMO. He could have stopped it with a phone call, but did nothing. He is a horrible person, and everyone that complains about him losing his record and statue morally bankrupt.


Correct me if Im wrong because I admit I dont know all the facts and Im uncomfortable supporting anything Penn State and I dont want anyone to think Im really defending Penn St/paterno.

After reading the initial summaries of the freeh report and its findings I actually found the Freeh report conclusions very surprising. He came down harshly on Penn St and on Paterno in particular. The only thing I saw that he actually had on Paterno was an indirect quote from one of Paterno's superiors that referred to a conversation that that superior had with Paterno. I didnt see any quote of any email or anything directly from Paterno that showed how much Paterno knew. It also seemed to me that what Paterno possibly knew about was an incident that happened in 1998 when a mother of a victim contacted the police and recorded a conversation with Sandusky. This was the quote that Paterno was indirectly referenced on. The key thing that sticks in my mind is that THE POLICE KNEW BEFORE ANYONE AT THE UNIVERSITY KNEW. To me that is a huge point. The freeh report seemed to me to go after Penn State and ignore the police's negligence, lack of action whatever you want to call it. I dont get it, if the police did nothing why does Paterno bear the burden? People say he was the most powerful person on the campus but did he also supercede the police? Why is the police's handling of this case not evaluated. Anyway several months after that incident/police investigation happened Sandusky was done as a coach at Penn St and most likely didnt have much oversight from paterno/spanier whoever else.

I dunno, I just find the conclusions confusing and possibly intentionally misdirected at Penn St rather than law enforcement. When there is a monster like a serial killer, thief or pedophile like Sandusky they become that monster by tricking and hiding who they are from almost everybody. If you look at people who ran across Sandusky there are plenty of big names - he got awards from George Bush, Rick Santorum, and had former team owners, NFL coaches, etc working on the board of the Second Mile. Seemingly nobody suspected he was a monster. I think people forget that Sandusky was a monster and he probably began fooling Joe Paterno when they started working together in 1969 about 30 years before the first time Paterno heard anything about Sandusky's true colors. If someone told me something this spectacularly scandalous about someone I knew for that long Im sure I would have a difficult time accepting that as well. Hindsight is always 20-20 and that is exactly what the freeh report seems like to me. Easy to point out these mistakes in retrospect but probably Paterno and crew serioulsy doubted that any of this was true especially after the police investigation didnt result in any charges. Without compellng evidence it would be very difficult for them to act and its clear to me there was no compelling evidence bc the police did nothing. Even more recently the police were investigating/observing/following Sandusky for what 2.5 years before they made the official arrest?


July 25th, 2012, 8:14 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
Yeah, I wonder if anyone changed their mind's post-FBI report?

At any rate, upper management is always responsible. That's why when you're at the top, you get paid the big bucks. You're supposed to know what's going on, and even if you can't, you're supposed to have found lieutenants that you can trust to keep you informed.


I did... I really couldn't believe that Joe Pa knew and intentionally covered this up. Absolutely disgusting. I thought he may have had some speculative hearsay or something, but nothing concrete. I was literally disgusted when I found out he knew. He's just as guilty for every instance after gaining that knowledge, IMO. He could have stopped it with a phone call, but did nothing. He is a horrible person, and everyone that complains about him losing his record and statue morally bankrupt.



I reluctantly admit I have changed my opinion of JoePa as well.....and Im very very sad about that. Im kind of glad he's dead. He's done too much good in life to still be alive and see that after it's all said and done THIS is what ended up defineing him as a person. THIS is his legacy.....just....sad.

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July 26th, 2012, 12:41 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
The Legend wrote:
Quote:
I did... I really couldn't believe that Joe Pa knew and intentionally covered this up. Absolutely disgusting. I thought he may have had some speculative hearsay or something, but nothing concrete. I was literally disgusted when I found out he knew. He's just as guilty for every instance after gaining that knowledge, IMO. He could have stopped it with a phone call, but did nothing. He is a horrible person, and everyone that complains about him losing his record and statue morally bankrupt.


Correct me if Im wrong because I admit I dont know all the facts and Im uncomfortable supporting anything Penn State and I dont want anyone to think Im really defending Penn St/paterno.

After reading the initial summaries of the freeh report and its findings I actually found the Freeh report conclusions very surprising. He came down harshly on Penn St and on Paterno in particular. The only thing I saw that he actually had on Paterno was an indirect quote from one of Paterno's superiors that referred to a conversation that that superior had with Paterno. I didnt see any quote of any email or anything directly from Paterno that showed how much Paterno knew. It also seemed to me that what Paterno possibly knew about was an incident that happened in 1998 when a mother of a victim contacted the police and recorded a conversation with Sandusky. This was the quote that Paterno was indirectly referenced on. The key thing that sticks in my mind is that THE POLICE KNEW BEFORE ANYONE AT THE UNIVERSITY KNEW. To me that is a huge point. The freeh report seemed to me to go after Penn State and ignore the police's negligence, lack of action whatever you want to call it. I dont get it, if the police did nothing why does Paterno bear the burden? People say he was the most powerful person on the campus but did he also supercede the police? Why is the police's handling of this case not evaluated. Anyway several months after that incident/police investigation happened Sandusky was done as a coach at Penn St and most likely didnt have much oversight from paterno/spanier whoever else.

I dunno, I just find the conclusions confusing and possibly intentionally misdirected at Penn St rather than law enforcement. When there is a monster like a serial killer, thief or pedophile like Sandusky they become that monster by tricking and hiding who they are from almost everybody. If you look at people who ran across Sandusky there are plenty of big names - he got awards from George Bush, Rick Santorum, and had former team owners, NFL coaches, etc working on the board of the Second Mile. Seemingly nobody suspected he was a monster. I think people forget that Sandusky was a monster and he probably began fooling Joe Paterno when they started working together in 1969 about 30 years before the first time Paterno heard anything about Sandusky's true colors. If someone told me something this spectacularly scandalous about someone I knew for that long Im sure I would have a difficult time accepting that as well. Hindsight is always 20-20 and that is exactly what the freeh report seems like to me. Easy to point out these mistakes in retrospect but probably Paterno and crew serioulsy doubted that any of this was true especially after the police investigation didnt result in any charges. Without compellng evidence it would be very difficult for them to act and its clear to me there was no compelling evidence bc the police did nothing. Even more recently the police were investigating/observing/following Sandusky for what 2.5 years before they made the official arrest?


I don't know how much more the police could have done. IMO any suggestion that the cops could have done more is all speculation. We don't know how hard they pressed, how willing the vic was to testify in court, what other evidence there was, etc. Further, I'm willing to bet that the school was less than helpful in providing information, given that they hid it from everyone else for 20 years. If someone thought that there was any credibility to a police cover-up I think the FBI would have been involved.

That said, there were direct emails from Paterno to the AD talking about the necessity to keep the situation quiet, and how damaging it would have been to the program. They definitely sounded like they knew the behavior was going on, and they allowed that scumbag to continue to work there, and they continued to parade kids his way VIA camp. That's absolutely disgusting.


July 26th, 2012, 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
no, there were not direct emails from paterno to the AD. there was an email from the AD that said he had spoken to Paterno. it did not specifically say anything that paterno had said but insinuated that paterno may have influenced the ad's opinion although that is speculation.

the evidence to me just seems flimsy at best but the media is running with it and people are just eating it up


July 26th, 2012, 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
The Legend wrote:
no, there were not direct emails from paterno to the AD. there was an email from the AD that said he had spoken to Paterno. it did not specifically say anything that paterno had said but insinuated that paterno may have influenced the ad's opinion although that is speculation.

the evidence to me just seems flimsy at best but the media is running with it and people are just eating it up


Really?

Quote:
After an eight-month investigation, Freeh's firm produced a 267-page report that concluded that the Hall of Fame coach, President Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz "repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse."Paterno "was an integral part of this active decision to conceal" and his firing was justified, Freeh said at a news conference. He called the officials' disregard for child victims "callous and shocking."


Quote:
The May 1998 complaint by a woman whose son came home with wet hair after showering with Sandusky didn't result in charges at the time. The report says Schultz was worried the matter could be opening "Pandora's box."

Then, in 2001, after a member of Paterno's staff saw Sandusky in a campus shower with a boy, officials did bar him from bringing children to campus and decided not to report him to child welfare authorities.

"There's more red flags here than you could count over a long period of time," Freeh said.

Freeh said Sandusky's conduct was in part a result of the school's lack of transparency, which stemmed from a "failure of governance" on the part of officials and the trustees. He said the collective inaction and mindset at the top of the university trickled all the way down to a school janitor who was afraid for his job and opted to not report seeing sex abuse in a school locker room in 2000.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/today/print. ... ky_se.html

Quote:
Paterno “was an integral part of this active decision to conceal” and his firing was justified, Freeh said at a news conference. He called the officials’ disregard for child victims “callous and shocking.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/137 ... -says.html

That's not based on anything that I've read.


July 26th, 2012, 5:23 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
you ve just posted freeh's conclusion - not his facts. freeh didnt find an email from paterno, they were between the others and they mentioned that they had spoken to paterno. it is not clear in those emails what paterno said, one can only speculate that he influenced them. the media keeps saying that paterno didnt relay the 2001 mcqueary incident to police, but he reported it to schultz who had authority over campus police. th 1998 incident was reported to police by a parent, paterno and others found out later and a few months later sandusky retired. what was paterno supposed to do with that incident when the police had already recorded a sandusky conversation where sandusky apologized and said "i wish i were dead" and did nothing with it?

again, its flimsy. freeh even says "reasonable to conclude" - it doenst mean he had absolute statements showing paterno's guilt, he s making assumptions. the amount of concrete evidence against paterno is surprisingly lacking.

i personally think that paterno probably knew a little more than he let on but its far from proven by what freeh dug up


July 26th, 2012, 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
The Legend wrote:
you ve just posted freeh's conclusion - not his facts. freeh didnt find an email from paterno, they were between the others and they mentioned that they had spoken to paterno. it is not clear in those emails what paterno said, one can only speculate that he influenced them. the media keeps saying that paterno didnt relay the 2001 mcqueary incident to police, but he reported it to schultz who had authority over campus police. th 1998 incident was reported to police by a parent, paterno and others found out later and a few months later sandusky retired. what was paterno supposed to do with that incident when the police had already recorded a sandusky conversation where sandusky apologized and said "i wish i were dead" and did nothing with it?

again, its flimsy. freeh even says "reasonable to conclude" - it doenst mean he had absolute statements showing paterno's guilt, he s making assumptions. the amount of concrete evidence against paterno is surprisingly lacking.

i personally think that paterno probably knew a little more than he let on but its far from proven by what freeh dug up



C'mon Legend... You'll say that "Paterno probably knew a little more than he let on," but if he literally knew ANYTHING it was too much. That's like saying "I only kind of killed someone."

And, just because Joe Pa was 82 years old and probably wasn't proficient in using his campus email, I don't find that reason to not implicate him in all of his. Were the emails hearsay? Sure, but they tell a damn lot! Further, I don't care of Shultz had authority over the campus police or not, Paterno should have reported it to a NON-CAMPUS police agency (State cops, city cops, etc.).


July 26th, 2012, 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Joe Paterno has died
i ll say he probably knew because thats my personal opinion, i think though when someone gets raked through the coals and for all intents and purposes banished to hell that there should be concrete proof first. i thought that was the country we lived in, not whatever the media wants to spin for a story goes. oj simpson post murders was treated better than paterno with an unbelievable amount of incriminating evidence. thank you for at least agreeing that the evidence is hearsay. of course that means its not evidence at all and leaves us to decide what we think. if people think something on there own, that is fine but i hate it when the media gives everyone there opinion by confusing or concealing what the actual facts are.


July 26th, 2012, 5:55 pm
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