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 Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity. 
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Joe - thanks for the conversation and for taking it easy on my Spartans. Your questions were tought provoking and appreciated.

WarEr4Christ wrote:
Pablo, I appreciate your answer with a question and I started to think on it in order to answer my question with the answer to your question. (say that 3 times fast and backwards) But I hit a snag.....

The snag is that ants are without a soul, or spirit, so therefore they are different than we are. If we were on the same plane, then you would have a better basis with which to state your point in question form. But since man is of higher intelligence and does have a soul, spirit, and mind, we are above the animal kingdom, and can reason, so therefore we have a purpose.

So in the internet form of tennis, it's in your court.


Hummmm, first I don't associate higher inteligence with soul and spirit. In fact, an inverse relationship exist between the two if we are to belief your belief system is correct since their atheist repeatedly score higher on IQ test than believers.

Second, you assume ants therefore have no soul or spirit - how sad that you think this way.

Third, following your logic here - imagine that there are many species of higher intelligence than mankind out there. They would be "above us" in intellect, soul, spirit and purpose then. That does in turn, make ants to humans much the same as humans to higher forms of intelligence. In fact, it is quite possible that if a God exist he communicates with these "higher level species" frequently in a way humans can't even comprehend. They would scoff at and dismiss our so called "relationship" with God in much the same manner you did with ants.

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August 22nd, 2012, 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
tap, tap, tap, tappity, tap, tap.... Oh sorry I thought i heard dance music.

It appears that you're dancing around the question, and to do so you are using convenient wording like your second point. In returning to your first point, higher intelligence was not meant in terms of one human to the next, maybe I should have used the term reason instead of intelligence. We humans have the ability to reason....

So now it boils down to a tit for tat, you don't have a REAL, substantial reason for what you believe, and I can't prove to you any other way that you'll believe, or accept, so in the end we're left with an empasse.

So let's get back to the original question and stop dancing to the theme song to "ants."

Is there a purpose for humanity? If so what is it?

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August 22nd, 2012, 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Quote:
Is there a purpose for humanity? If so what is it?



well duh...to sing "the ants go marching 2 by 2 hurrah" =D>



everything else is just icing on the cake! :lol:


(couldnt resist) O:)

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August 22nd, 2012, 3:54 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
tap, tap, tap, tappity, tap, tap.... Oh sorry I thought i heard dance music.

It appears that you're dancing around the question, and to do so you are using convenient wording like your second point. In returning to your first point, higher intelligence was not meant in terms of one human to the next, maybe I should have used the term reason instead of intelligence. We humans have the ability to reason....

So now it boils down to a tit for tat, you don't have a REAL, substantial reason for what you believe, and I can't prove to you any other way that you'll believe, or accept, so in the end we're left with an empasse.

So let's get back to the original question and stop dancing to the theme song to "ants."

Is there a purpose for humanity? If so what is it?


I'm not dancing at all. I'm expanding your logic and wording (at both our species level and above) to demonstrate how limiting it is. The logic, once human ego is taken out, doesn't hold.

As for the purpose, I'm not claiming to have an answer that will satisfy you but let's use your words

Quote:
Are you here to take up space, breathe air, spawn a few children, and then die off? For what?


Well now having a couple of boys of my own, this seems like a very noble purpose. Look at life on Earth as we know it, don't we all strive to "live" and to be part of an on-going cycle of life? Think of how much has changed in the last few "lives" within your last few generations. Isn't our purpose, at least in part, to leave this place better off for us having lived? I want both my sons to be "better" than I, that is therefore part of my purpose.

Why isn't that enough of a purpose? Are our lives so pitiful we need to come up with a
grandiose purpose to feel good or a promise of an everlasting blissful life after we die?

Take the ant. One of the purposes of their lives is to help ensure their species survives. They also each have a specific job/niche/purpose that they fufill that helps the entire colony thrive. By doing what they do, they make things better for every other ant. And by living their purpose, don't ants "fit" into a grander scheme of species that has evolved to coexist together?

Now let me ask you a question in return - why do you feel a need to add a "grandiose sense of purpose" to your life? Is your relationship with your wife/child/friends (and quite frankly yourself) not fufilling enough for you?

PS - Joe, you are on a roll today - keep it up...

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August 22nd, 2012, 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
ah ha, headway....

Thank you for responding and I in turn will do the same for you, and it may just surprise you in my answer. Let's see how it develops.

Quote:
Now let me ask you a question in return - why do you feel a need to add a "grandiose sense of purpose" to your life? Is your relationship with your wife/child/friends (and quite frankly yourself) not fufilling enough for you?


First, I believe you are making an assumption here that I am creating a grandiose sense of purpose when I actually am not. The purpose or passion of my life is in line with yours, to be the best husband and father I can be. But I also take it a step further in that I go beyond those relationships and choose to serve those around me. I'll cut a neighbors lawn, because they can't, or I'll shovel the snow, or fix a leak, replace a roof, provide prayer, a shoulder, an ear, whatever is needed. Because of the purpose of my life is service, and through service I represent the love and care of my Lord and Savior, and His love for all, that becomes a noteworthy cause. Remember, "Love you neighbor...?"

Second, the ant is a beautiful representation of what humanity COULD be, if we could just get over ourselves. If you removed selfish ambition, greed, sin and so on from the human condition, the chance exists that we could all just get along. But because of our collective fallen nature we as a population are selfish by nature, and that can lead to all types of sin. The beauty of the ant is that it is designed and born with a purpose, and it doesn't think or try to rise above it's station, it just is. Sadly the same can not be said for humanity in general.

Third, humanity is born with an individual set of talents and passions that can be developed or discarded according to environment, and availability. Meaning that we in the USA have greater opportunity to experience or do a wide variety of things, but a child somewhere in another 4th or 5th world country is subject to his environment. That is not to say that they can't or don't find fulfillment with their familiar surroundings.

I must admit that you and Eric have a stubborn or tenacious ability to refuse to see the part that Scripture plays in humanity. I could relay some Scripture that applies, but you already question the authority of the book anyway, and therefore it doesn't apply. None of this upsets me, it just puzzles me. To be honest with you, if the Lord were to zap you with all of the understanding you needed to believe He is, that tenacity and stubbornness would be quite useful. As you can see, I too, am stubborn and tenacious! Many of the answers that you both seek and hope to find through science, can only be Spiritually discerned, (not my words but God's) which in turn leads to back to my comment, that if you really wanted to know how the water is, you have got to get in.

Just sayin, and still prayin!

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August 22nd, 2012, 6:33 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
49ers wrote:
I.E. wrote:
It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.


August 23rd, 2012, 7:53 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
UK Lion wrote:
49ers wrote:
I.E. wrote:
It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.



to be fair the odds are significantly better for you to win the lottery than it is to have life like our planet has....by a LOT. a whole lot. a whole helluva lot. we're talking rediculously better odds. heck you have better odds of getting struck by lightinging every day for the rest of your life than it is for what happened here to duplicate itself randomly.

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August 23rd, 2012, 8:20 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
So let me ask this question:

Our society has become enamoured with the Spiritual, whether it's "guardian angels" or the dark and demonic. A lot of the movies coming out are "paranormal" and so on. Even our television programs are pursuing the Spiritual with Ghost encounters and so on.

So what is the Spiritual, and does it exist?

Programs like Ghost Science has looked to prove the existence of Spirits, and just about all of humanity speaks of spirit; from the spirits that live in trees to Ghosts.

So if the Spiritual doesn't exist, why the fascination?

I ask this because Spiritual things can not be "proved" with hard facts. We might be able to see movement, or hear "voices" via monitors, but that does not mean a Spirit can be captured.

So is there a possibility that Spiritual things must be discerned Spiritually?

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August 23rd, 2012, 8:53 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
regularjoe12 wrote:
UK Lion wrote:
49ers wrote:
I.E. wrote:
It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.



to be fair the odds are significantly better for you to win the lottery than it is to have life like our planet has....by a LOT. a whole lot. a whole helluva lot. we're talking rediculously better odds. heck you have better odds of getting struck by lightinging every day for the rest of your life than it is for what happened here to duplicate itself randomly.

The odds of both are 50/50 - it either happens, or it doesn't.

(I joke, I joke - just that probability arguments on the interweb always end up with someone out of their depth talking nonsense, so I thought I'd try and get in there first :D )

To be honest, I don't know what the relative chances are of a lottery win vs life occurring - in particular, given I have no idea how you would do the calculation on the chances of the latter (especially when no one's quite sure how it happened, let alone the chances of it happening).

And regardless of the relative odds, I think the original point still stands. Just because something is unlikely (no matter how unlikely), it doesn't mean it is impossible, which means it doesn't require* divine intervention in order to explain it.

* which doesn't mean it can't, or isn't, explained by divine intervention - this just means divine intervention is not a definite


August 23rd, 2012, 9:18 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
So let me ask this question:

Our society has become enamoured with the Spiritual, whether it's "guardian angels" or the dark and demonic. A lot of the movies coming out are "paranormal" and so on. Even our television programs are pursuing the Spiritual with Ghost encounters and so on.

So what is the Spiritual, and does it exist?

Programs like Ghost Science has looked to prove the existence of Spirits, and just about all of humanity speaks of spirit; from the spirits that live in trees to Ghosts.

So if the Spiritual doesn't exist, why the fascination?

I ask this because Spiritual things can not be "proved" with hard facts. We might be able to see movement, or hear "voices" via monitors, but that does not mean a Spirit can be captured.

So is there a possibility that Spiritual things must be discerned Spiritually?


Im sorry bro, Im not following what you are looing for.

I am a firm believer that ghosts and hauntings are fun for Halloween, but for the rest of the year I dismiss them to those with overactive imaginations. I do not believe in all the haunted house shows, I do not believe grandma jeb from 1883 is trying to send us a message from beyond the grave. I do not believe my radio is my new walkie talkie for the damned, and I sure as heck dont believe that some spirit somehow got left behind from whatever is suposed to happen and the only thing it wants to do is move crap around in my house.

I DO however believe it's rediculously easy to fake this kinda stuff to get those with greater imaginatiosn to believe it. My GF wont watrch those ghost hunter shows with me anymore because everytime they find some "Amazing phenominon" I tell her exactly how i'd fake it and they would never know with their " Scientific research" (Im not knocking science..im knocking those jokers....Chaps or Shaps or whomever those guys are are some of the biggest dueche bgs on TV and make the Jersey Shore cast seem smart by comparison)

So I guess im not sure what it is your looking for...

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August 23rd, 2012, 9:22 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
UK Lion wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
UK Lion wrote:
49ers wrote:
I.E. wrote:
It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.



to be fair the odds are significantly better for you to win the lottery than it is to have life like our planet has....by a LOT. a whole lot. a whole helluva lot. we're talking rediculously better odds. heck you have better odds of getting struck by lightinging every day for the rest of your life than it is for what happened here to duplicate itself randomly.

The odds of both are 50/50 - it either happens, or it doesn't.

(I joke, I joke - just that probability arguments on the interweb always end up with someone out of their depth talking nonsense, so I thought I'd try and get in there first :D )

To be honest, I don't know what the relative chances are of a lottery win vs life occurring - in particular, given I have no idea how you would do the calculation on the chances of the latter (especially when no one's quite sure how it happened, let alone the chances of it happening).

And regardless of the relative odds, I think the original point still stands. Just because something is unlikely (no matter how unlikely), it doesn't mean it is impossible, which means it doesn't require* divine intervention in order to explain it.

* which doesn't mean it can't, or isn't, explained by divine intervention - this just means divine intervention is not a definite


I won't argue with you one bit here!

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August 23rd, 2012, 9:24 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
W4C:

I have a question for you. You claim that angels were created without free will, with the sole purpose of glorifying and worshipping God.

Then explain the fall of Lucifer. If he didn't possess free will, how did he break that "robot" like quality?

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August 23rd, 2012, 9:56 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Include me on that PM if you would because I'm interested in your beliefs as well.

When you made the comment about having been "born again" twice before, that was new to me, I was not aware. Having said that I was really curious as to the faith background.

I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding confrontational, but the whole process of being Born Again, although it sounds simple, is transformational. By that I mean that the former has passed away... and so on. I have a co-worker who claims to have been born again, but the fruits don't match the tree. What this leads me to believe is that there may be some confusion as to the process or there wasn't a true committment. Anyway, I am not trying to sound judgemental, but I'm curious as to how a decision like this can be gone back on, if that makes sense? Like I said, include me on the message unless you'd like to share here, but that's your call.
I apologize in my delay in responding to this. First off, it doesn't sound confrontational at all and honestly makes perfect sense. Perhaps I wasn't truly 'born again' though that's what I was told when it happened.

The Q&D version:
My faith background: I was born Catholic; had my 1st Communion and Confirmation as well. Went to Catholic school from 3-9 grade (Catechism before 3rd). I also saw my father rededicate himself to the Catholic Church; he was excommunicated because of divorce and had to take 'classes' to be readmitted to the Church. Keep in mind that we are of Italian decent and the Church was very important to my father's generation of Italians (it may still be true, however I wouldn't know as I haven't been in the same environment for quite some time)

Born-again background: I was at a non-denominational Church service when I starting feeling 'something' come over me. Not sure what was happening, my GF (who was the preachers daughter) suggested I go to the front because the Holy Spirit was coming over me (her words). I did so as did a few others. I stayed there for a while and the preacher ended up re-baptizing me (which is what my understanding of 'born-again' is). I continued going to the Church, then moved away from the town for a few months. Upon my return to the town, I again went to the same Church and again had the same or similar experience as before, however there was a difference in the congregation as well as the preacher...it was much more 'fire and brimstone' than before (which didn't sit well with me at the time and still doesn't)

So there you have it. A quick and dirty description of my 'born-again' experiences. Now, as to whether or not either or both classify as true born again, I don't know. Hope this helps.

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August 23rd, 2012, 10:05 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
So let me ask this question:

Our society has become enamoured with the Spiritual, whether it's "guardian angels" or the dark and demonic. A lot of the movies coming out are "paranormal" and so on. Even our television programs are pursuing the Spiritual with Ghost encounters and so on.

So what is the Spiritual, and does it exist?

Programs like Ghost Science has looked to prove the existence of Spirits, and just about all of humanity speaks of spirit; from the spirits that live in trees to Ghosts.

So if the Spiritual doesn't exist, why the fascination?

I ask this because Spiritual things can not be "proved" with hard facts. We might be able to see movement, or hear "voices" via monitors, but that does not mean a Spirit can be captured.

So is there a possibility that Spiritual things must be discerned Spiritually?
Wouldn't the Holy Ghost / Spirit be considered Spiritual?

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August 23rd, 2012, 10:08 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Thanks for sharing your back ground and that gives me SO MUCH to think about and hopefully talk with you.

First and foremost there are some definitions that might give clarity, and bring some light to the situation. Second, your background with Catholiscism is something I've seen pretty regularly, and it is also part of the concern I have for how people react towards "Christianity." We don't always do it right, and some times we blatantly do it wrong, but there is a lot in the enforced rituals that does not teach, or encourage the relationship with God, that takes the flavor out of the food. Does that make sense?

As for your question, yes I was including the Holy Spirit in my questioning because things of the Spirit come from a world we can't recognize or translate. That's like me air dropping into an unknown land blindfolded and deaf, and being told to communicate with the people. It would be almost impossible because the language is different, the customs, the overall life is totally different. So if we're blind and deaf, how can we even think that we can understand the Spiritual realm unless someone teaches us?

I came across a piece of Scripture yesterday that I think will encourage you and I'll try to find it again and post it. Sadly, I took my Bible home yesterday and don't have it here but I'll look for it on Biblegateway.org

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August 23rd, 2012, 10:32 am
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