View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently October 20th, 2014, 12:34 am



Reply to topic  [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 10  Next
 NFL faces another labor battle, with officials 
Author Message
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2792
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
m2karateman wrote:
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
With all due respect to KVB and the rest of the players, but bringing up player safety is completely irrelevant when it comes to replacement vs. regular officials. The refs call fouls after the effect, not prior. The rules committee makes the rules that protect the players. Regardless if the officials throw a flag for those that break the rules, the replay officials at the front office are the ones that dish out the fines, many on plays where there wasn't a flag on the play.

The officials don't regulate player safety, the league does. Throwing a flag means the rule was already broken, it didn't prevent it. I realize that missed calls can change the outcome of a game, and the replacement officials could possibly cost a team a game, but the argument that players are somehow at more risk under replacement officials is ludicrous.


I disagree njroar. Players will adapt to the game, if they feel like they can get away with more they will push it. Also, a couple of bad calls can really start to frustrate players who are then more likely to stray outside of the rules in their play.

The refs don't regulate player safety, but they can certainly influence how players play which leads to more/less risk.


The bolded statement is exactly why any player talking about player safety is ridiculous. If the players are so concerned with safety, then they should be the ones taking steps to ensure their own protection, and not expecting the league, owners or officials to make it happen.

njroar is correct in saying that the officials truly can't protect the players, but just enforce the rules after the fact. Same thing with police. They don't prevent crimes, just make arrests after the fact.

The players who complain about the use of replacment officials and how it will affect player safety are simply stating the union position. If the NFLPA cries, so do the players who are an integral part of the union. And since the impasse is between the NFL and the NFLRA, the unions will try to create a united front.

If the players are that worried, then they should risk their game checks and go on strike. The fact that they won't is testimony to the fact that they aren't really all that worried about their safety.


Agreed m2k.

Pablo, they won't be getting away with it more if the league office is still fining players after the game. A flag in the game does nothing to the player. A fine does. That has and always was handled by the league office and by the replay officials (who are still the regular officials). The replacement officials biggest impact will come down to length of games. All turnovers and scoring is now replayed automatically. Fines for breaking the rules, caught by officials or not, is handled by the league. The replacements won't effect that at all. I agree we might see more holds, pass interference and those types of plays called more often or a lot less depending on the refs, but safety isn't in the refs hands. It's always been in the players' actions and the league rules.


September 4th, 2012, 2:51 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9484
Location: Dallas
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Interesting NJ and M2K. I don't supose you believe that during the Thanksgiving game all those missed holding penalties had anything to do with Stompgate? I guess a week or two later, all those missed called against the Saints didn't have anything to do with the Lions starting to play out of control?

Look, I've played sports and when the refs call crappy games you can't really take it out on them - you turn to the other players.

Fines, sure they might work after the fact but in the heat of the battle playes react. If both of you think refs have zero impact on safety I have some 2011 Lions games I'd like you to rewatch...

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


September 4th, 2012, 3:11 pm
Profile WWW
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2792
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
Interesting NJ and M2K. I don't supose you believe that during the Thanksgiving game all those missed holding penalties had anything to do with Stompgate? I guess a week or two later, all those missed called against the Saints didn't have anything to do with the Lions starting to play out of control?

Look, I've played sports and when the refs call crappy games you can't really take it out on them - you turn to the other players.

Fines, sure they might work after the fact but in the heat of the battle playes react. If both of you think refs have zero impact on safety I have some 2011 Lions games I'd like you to rewatch...


And all those missed calls were by regular officials. But did the stomp get fined on the play or afterwards by the league office? Did anyone get hurt in the Saint's playoff loss? I believe Speivey got called for a hitting the helmet penalty that wasn't really a helmet hit and it wasn't fined afterwards either.

I completely agree that the replacement officials suck, but player safety isn't doled out by officials. Player safety isn't in replacement officials or regular officials hands. To say that replacement officials suddenly make the game unsafe is completely false though.


September 4th, 2012, 3:48 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9484
Location: Dallas
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
To say that replacement officials suddenly make the game unsafe is completely false though.


And to say that replacement officials have no impact on the safety of the players is completely false as well.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


September 4th, 2012, 3:57 pm
Profile WWW
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2792
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
To say that replacement officials suddenly make the game unsafe is completely false though.


And to say that replacement officials have no impact on the safety of the players is completely false as well.


They have no impact at all. They throw a flag AFTER a penalty, they don't stop it from happening. Your false analogy of the no-calls on holds leading to Suh's stomp... that was all on Suh. Holds aren't called even close to 25% of the time they actually happen. But again, those were regular officials.

Name one instance of a regular official impacting player safety before something happens. Name one way replacement officials will directly impact player safety. And you can't play an imaginary six-degrees of separation game where not calling a hold leads to a QB being lost for the year. What calls or no-calls will directly impact player safety?


September 5th, 2012, 4:54 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9884
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
To say that replacement officials suddenly make the game unsafe is completely false though.


And to say that replacement officials have no impact on the safety of the players is completely false as well.


How have regular officials prevented injury?

They haven't. Not a bit. Most injuries don't occur on illegal plays, or plays where penalties are called. They happen during normal plays when unfortunate circumstances occur. To imply that the existence of the replacement officials somehow create an unsafe working environment is just plain foolish. They don't prevent injuries.

And Pablo, you said it yourself. If players gets frustrated by calls or non-calls, it is the PLAYERS who lose control, not the officials. The regular officials in that New Orleans game did an atrocious job, same as in the Green Bay game where Suh lost his temper. Yet there were no injuries. Those penalties, or lack thereof, didn't cause the working environment to be any less safe.

Sorry Pablo, but I simply don't buy into that theory.

_________________
Driver of the 'we need a coaching change' bandwagon. Climb aboard.


September 5th, 2012, 10:25 am
Profile
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo, to say that a poorly called game leads to frustration, that leads to more physical play, that leads to aggression is ridiculous. Any player playing poorly leads to frustration.

And, to say that a replacement ref is going to "miss more calls" than a "union ref," at this point is, IMO ridiculous. The replacements, not the union refs, have had the benefit of the pre-season. IMO the replacement refs did a damn fine job last week, and they'll continue to improve. They're generally younger than the union refs, they're in better shape for the most part, and the can probably see better too!

The NFL rule book isn't all that complicated. I don't see why any reasonably intelligent person can't get the feel for calling a game and the entire rule book in a few weeks.


September 5th, 2012, 3:23 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9484
Location: Dallas
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Guess I'm on an island and I certainly respect the opinions of those who think I'm wrong - actually I hope I am wrong as well.

I thinking of this from my perspective. I've played sports a long time and as captain of many of my teams got to know the refs pretty good. In fact, my last time in Detroit Metro airport a ref from Dallas spotted me and we had some good laughs.

When I played against a ref I knew, I would play/adjust to how they called the game. For a ref who called the game tight, I would take few chances. For refs who called games loose, well my play was a little loose as well. For refs I didn't know, I would push boundries to see what I could and could not get away with. For me, I believe their was a much great chance of my hurting someone with a loose or new ref.

Assuming my mentality doesn't apply to NFL players (and it might not, I've never been fined - just suspended) - y'all are right and I'm wrong. If even a small dose of my mentality applies, then the games are indeed a bit more dangerous with replacement refs. This is one case when I hope I'm wrong and everyone else is right.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


September 5th, 2012, 3:58 pm
Profile WWW
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
Guess I'm on an island and I certainly respect the opinions of those who think I'm wrong - actually I hope I am wrong as well.

I thinking of this from my perspective. I've played sports a long time and as captain of many of my teams got to know the refs pretty good. In fact, my last time in Detroit Metro airport a ref from Dallas spotted me and we had some good laughs.

When I played against a ref I knew, I would play/adjust to how they called the game. For a ref who called the game tight, I would take few chances. For refs who called games loose, well my play was a little loose as well. For refs I didn't know, I would push boundries to see what I could and could not get away with. For me, I believe their was a much great chance of my hurting someone with a loose or new ref.

Assuming my mentality doesn't apply to NFL players (and it might not, I've never been fined - just suspended) - y'all are right and I'm wrong. If even a small dose of my mentality applies, then the games are indeed a bit more dangerous with replacement refs. This is one case when I hope I'm wrong and everyone else is right.


To put it another way, I think the proximation between the "cause" and the "harm" is too great to blame the refs. It's almost like blaming the players or the coach for scoring an extra TD and a frustration fight breaks out afterward. You may as well blame traffic at that point...


September 5th, 2012, 5:43 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9884
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
I know it was only one game...but I will use last nights game as an example. The refs actually did a pretty good job. Missed calls? Sure, but the regular refs miss calls too. Some chump calls? Yes, but the regular refs do that too.

Injuries happened, and not because of any calls or non-calls. They happen just as a course of the type of game football is. Players with pre-existing conditions getting hurt (Phil Costa's back). Players pulling hamstrings (Michael Coe). Players getting dinged up in the course of play.....that is how most NFL injuries occur. I'd venture to say 90-95% of them happen that way. Very few occur due to an illegal play, such as a roughing.

The horsecollar tackle was called. But if Michael Boley had gotten injured on that play, would it be because of the fact that the replacement refs were there? No. It happened quite by accident.

I understand where you are coming from Pablo. Hopefully last nights game is an indication that A) the players will play the game in the manner they are supposed to, and B) that the replacement refs can do a good job.

And if last nights game was any indication, the regular refs just cried out a collective "OH SH*T", and will start thinking about the reality of their demands.

_________________
Driver of the 'we need a coaching change' bandwagon. Climb aboard.


September 6th, 2012, 10:40 am
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3814
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Quote:
And if last nights game was any indication, the regular refs just cried out a collective "OH SH*T", and will start thinking about the reality of their demands.



That was a big part of our discussions last night watching the game as well. (well that and "who the hell is this Ogletree guy?"). I was actually impressed by that ref crew. they let em play, only called one ticky tacky call, and did NOT impact the game the way some reffing crews can. I hope this is a trend on what the replacemenets will be doing for the rest of the season.

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


September 6th, 2012, 10:50 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9484
Location: Dallas
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
I thought the refs did a great job last night. The real test, however, will be the Lions game of course... I'll reserve judgement for then but am encouraged.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


September 6th, 2012, 10:54 am
Profile WWW
Fired Head Coach (0-16 record)
User avatar

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pm
Posts: 2283
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Yeah, it will be interesting to see if the obvious anti-lions bias the regular refs displayed the last year will also be picked up by the replacements, or if we end up with fairly called games.

_________________
Time to Move on from the Schwartz Era. My Favorite Offense Minded Coaching Candidates: O'Brien, Whisenhunt, John Gruden, Jay Gruden, David Shaw, Tom Coughlin


September 6th, 2012, 3:01 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
I thought the refs did a great job last night. The real test, however, will be the Lions game of course... I'll reserve judgement for then but am encouraged.



I agree... My only contention is something I brought up earlier in this thread... The replacement refs still seems one-sided and give the home team the advantage. I'm sure the union refs do this to some degree, but I really don't think Dallas committed something like 17 penalities, and NY committed 3... At least that was the tally when they posted the numbers in the late 3rd/early 4th Q.

I'll stand by my contention that 1) the game isn't that hard, 2) these guys are just as good as any, and 3) phuck the "regular refs" and they can stick their union, and their unreasonable demands up their rear ends...


September 6th, 2012, 3:22 pm
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3814
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Pablo wrote:
I thought the refs did a great job last night. The real test, however, will be the Lions game of course... I'll reserve judgement for then but am encouraged.



I agree... My only contention is something I brought up earlier in this thread... The replacement refs still seems one-sided and give the home team the advantage. I'm sure the union refs do this to some degree, but I really don't think Dallas committed something like 17 penalities, and NY committed 3... At least that was the tally when they posted the numbers in the late 3rd/early 4th Q.

I'll stand by my contention that 1) the game isn't that hard, 2) these guys are just as good as any, and 3) phuck the "regular refs" and they can stick their union, and their unreasonable demands up their rear ends...



GOOD NEWS! The lions open at home! lol If you're right WJB that works to our advantage this week. i'll take it! (then complain furiously about it next week!)

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


September 6th, 2012, 3:37 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 10  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.