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 NFL faces another labor battle, with officials 
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
I don't know what people are so upset about last night. It was a simultaneous catch.

Did you guys learn nothing after the Calvin catch? A catch requires two feet on the ground. Go watch the replay again. The argument that Golden Tate took his hand off or Jennings had the ball first didn't watch Jennings feet.

The part of the rule about someone having control first only deals with when the play is dead, ie wrestling the ball out of someone's hands to get joint control. But joint control isn't ruled until the DB gets two feet on the ground and at that point, Tate does have two hands on the ball.

Remember, it went to the replay booth which is a regular official.

I'm gonna laugh hysterically when GB gets fined out the wazoo for their outbursts on twitter last night.

The replacement refs need to go, but that call wasn't one they got wrong. And I love how all the media outlets try to act like they know better and somehow translate the back judge signaling to stop clock as a touchback?? Touchback is one arm, stop clock is two arms. It's not that similar.


September 25th, 2012, 10:48 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Lions2SB2 wrote:
Pretty soon you won't see players playing...
Do you think they're going to give up their paychecks for the officials? If that was the case, then why didn't they make it a part of their CBA last offseason? Also, IIRC the CBA between the NFL & NFLPA states there can be no strikes. The only thing I think the players could do is if ALL them line up next week and do nothing, just stand there..no plays (other than maybe initial kickoff), but in order for that to happen to have to have all players, coaches, etc on the same page in ALL games...don't think it will happen IMO.
njroar wrote:
I don't know what people are so upset about last night. It was a simultaneous catch.

Did you guys learn nothing after the Calvin catch? A catch requires two feet on the ground. Go watch the replay again. The argument that Golden Tate took his hand off or Jennings had the ball first didn't watch Jennings feet.

The part of the rule about someone having control first only deals with when the play is dead, ie wrestling the ball out of someone's hands to get joint control. But joint control isn't ruled until the DB gets two feet on the ground and at that point, Tate does have two hands on the ball.

Remember, it went to the replay booth which is a regular official.

I'm gonna laugh hysterically when GB gets fined out the wazoo for their outbursts on twitter last night.

The replacement refs need to go, but that call wasn't one they got wrong. And I love how all the media outlets try to act like they know better and somehow translate the back judge signaling to stop clock as a touchback?? Touchback is one arm, stop clock is two arms. It's not that similar.
Not too mention they played an entire 60 minute game. 1 bad call does NOT lose a game. If I were the Packers I would question why I let my QB get sacked 8 times amongst other things.

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September 25th, 2012, 10:50 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
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September 25th, 2012, 11:08 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
I don't know what people are so upset about last night. It was a simultaneous catch.


In what universe? One player obviously had two hands on the ball and the ball craddled against his chest. The other player is behind him with one hand wrapped around the player touching the ball. That is not a simultaneous catch, that is when both players actually "catch" the ball. Let's not forget the blatant push off before the "simulaneous" catch.

I'm going back to my original argument and I do think player safety is an issue now after a few weeks. Players are pushing the limits of the rule book which is not going to have good long term consequences.

This is downright embarrassing now.

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September 25th, 2012, 11:24 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
PFT wrote:
Non-replacements had a hand in last night’s debacle, too
Posted by Mike Florio on September 25, 2012, 8:57 AM EDT

As the tipping point becomes a boiling point in the lockout of the officials, it’s important to remember that all of the blame doesn’t fall on the shoulders of the replacement officials.

The final play was reviewed, and the ruling on the field was upheld.

Under normal circumstances, the decision would be made exclusively by the referee. Now, with the non-replacement league supervisor in the replay booth along with the non-replacement replay official, the procedure has been, we’re told, blurred a bit, allowing the replacement referee to get input from the folks who otherwise would be saying, essentially, “Figure it out, Hochuli.”

If the non-replacement replay official and the non-replacement league supervisor didn’t tell the replacement referee to overturn the call, the non-replacements deserve a lot of the blame.

Make no mistake about it. This one could have been overturned. Rule 15, Section 9 makes the question of whether a pass was “ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted” subject to replay review, with no exception for questions of simultaneous possession.

Yeah, we know the ESPN call says simultaneous possession can’t be reviewed by replay. We disagree. If it wasn’t reviewable by replay, it wouldn’t have been reviewed by replay. It was, so it is. (The only aspect that isn’t reviewable is the question of whether Seahawks receiver Golden Tate pushed off before jumping, because pass interference is a judgment call.)

Still, while the replacement officials don’t deserve all of the blame, the current circumstance — with non-replacements in the replay booth having a hand in debacles like last night’s final play and Sunday’s replay gaffes in Minnesota and Tennessee — the system that the NFL has created via its effort to break the officials’ union has given rise to these errors, and so ultimately the league bears the blame for what we are witnessing.

That said, the locked-out officials should be blamed, too. After all, the members of the NFL Referees Association who moonlight as supervisors of officiating at major college conferences made clear that anyone who accepts a short-term assignment as a replacement official with the NFL will lose his regular college gig. And so the NFLRA has contributed to the low quality of the officiating that we are now experiencing by pressuring the second-best officials into not working for the NFL, as they did during the 2001 lockout.

Regardless of the blame, the time has come to get it done. If they don’t, the next step could be boycotts and assaults on NFL sponsors.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... bacle-too/

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September 25th, 2012, 11:26 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
As I said in the main forum, these games will always have an asterisk next to them. That is the real shame. Players going out and playing hard, risking injury, all for bullsh**.

Oh, and there's this:

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FIRE THIS bunghole
Drew Magary
http://deadspin.com/5946173/fire-this-a*$hole

This is Roger Goodell. He's the commissioner of the NFL. Someone, please, FIRE THIS A$$HOLE.

Fire him now and fire him good. Fire him by opening up a trap door beneath his feet. Pack up all the poop in his office—all his hand mirrors, all his shredded concussion evidence, all the fan mail from Peter King, that letter his father wrote to him when he was just starting out in this crazy business—and BURN IT in front of him.

This is the end of Roger Goodell. He's lost his last fraction of credibility. Even ESPN crushed him last night, and you basically have to bomb an orphanage to get an ESPN talking head to actually speak his mind.

Goodell is a fraud, someone who has spent his career diving under his father's halo in the hopes that some of the light will shine on his dumbass, too. For years now, he has been little more than an eager hatchet man, doing all the shameful things that owners are too chickenshit to do themselves. The worst part was that he would cloak all this in the kind of faux nobility that suckers like Peter King always fall for but makes the rest of us want to poop on our rugs.

And now he doesn't even have that. He's presided over two consecutive primetime NFL games that stand among the greatest farces in the history of organized sports, if you don't count the other equally butffucked 48 games this season. The final touchdown call last night wasn't even the worst call of the game, which is amazing because that was a fudge horrific call (look at the pictures from the catch; it'll tell you more about the play than watching the video). Goodell has somehow succeeded in making NFL games feel utterly meaningless, and I don't know how you can fudge things up any worse than that.

Maybe spontaneous player boycotts won't ever happen. Maybe spontaneous coach boycotts won't ever happen. Certainly, every proposed fan boycott is hopelessly doomed to fail. But none of that is necessary right now because Goodell has already disgraced football in ways that will never be forgotten. The day he dies, we'll still remember the time he stuck us with illegitimate games at the beginning of the 2012 season and then spent the first three weeks of this disastrous season hiding in a fudge pantry. He's such a strong man, he can't even look you fans in the eye.

The NFL can easily repair the damage done by this ref lockout by striking a deal this week and going on about its business. That brand will survive. But the Goodell brand is and should be destroyed forever. Whatever bogus air of authority this man carried around should never be respected by anyone, ever. We should all continue to poop on him online. Boo him the next time he walks out onto the field with a group of veterans surrounding him as a cheap ploy to help boost his popularity. And when the 2013 draft comes around, we should pack the cheap seats and say the vilest poop possible in his direction. He's more than earned accusations of donkey fudge.

This man doesn't deserve even common human courtesy. He's fudge with these games just to swing his tiny ginger dick around, and to what end? There's no profile in courage waiting for Roger Goodell at the end of this. There are no more pats on the back from Jerry Jones after his quarterback nearly got killed on Sunday. There are no more fans looking up to this prick like he's a head of state. His legacy as a pathetic cretin is now well secured. And if NFL owners had any balls, they would run his rectum out on a rail and move forward with someone who doesn't wear a paper crown on his head. fudge YOU, ROGER GOODELL. YOU ARE A PATHETIC LEADER OF MEN AND EVERYONE WHO WALKS BY YOU ON THE STREET SHOULD MAKE AN INVISBLE WANK IN YOUR DIRECTION.

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September 25th, 2012, 11:47 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
I like how everyone is blaming Goodell. It's not his fault, it's the owners. The owners basically own this league, Goodell is their spokesperson to keep everything fair for all. He didn't lockout the refs, the owners did. He's their puppet. If they tell Roger that they don't want to pay to have the other refs, then he has no say. He's a commissioner of the league, not the owner.

It's like fantasy leagues. The commissioner controls the operation of the league, but the decisions made (rules, points, etc) are made by all team owners involved.

As for the simultaneous catch comment, here's the official rule:
Quote:
Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

DJ had the ball with both hands, arms, tucked into his chest. Tate had one arm wrapped around the back of DJ, and the other arm on the top of the ball and hand of the GB defender. He was trying to rip it out AFTER DJ maintained possession.

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September 25th, 2012, 11:52 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
I don't know what people are so upset about last night. It was a simultaneous catch.


In what universe? One player obviously had two hands on the ball and the ball craddled against his chest. The other player is behind him with one hand wrapped around the player touching the ball. That is not a simultaneous catch, that is when both players actually "catch" the ball. Let's not forget the blatant push off before the "simulaneous" catch.

I'm going back to my original argument and I do think player safety is an issue now after a few weeks. Players are pushing the limits of the rule book which is not going to have good long term consequences.

This is downright embarrassing now.


Watch the whole replay, not just the shots AFTER they're on the ground. Two hands doesn't make a catch. Coming down with two feet on the ground constitutes a catch and at THAT time, they both have two hands on the ground. It's at that point the rule comes into play about a player not wrestling the ball away. Jennings in the air prevents it being a catch until he comes down.

The simultaneous catch rule doesn't take place until they come to the ground. That's what people are overlooking. Jennings on the ground twisting away and Tate keeping his hands on the ball after they are on the ground doesn't change the outcome. Once they come down and go to ground the play is dead. The bolded doesn't happen until they after called Touchdown. Going to the ground, they're facing each other.

As to the pass interference I'd agree, but that wasn't called. The regular refs rarely make that call, so it's a non-issue in the call. Had they called it the rest wouldn't have mattered. But they didn't, so the only call that matters was the TD. And this is why players are told to knock the ball down or out of bounds.


September 25th, 2012, 11:59 am
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Here is the rule:

Quote:
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two opposing players who both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. However, it is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and retains control, regardless of subsequent joint control with an opponent. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.


Who had control first? Who retained control? There is no question it was M.D. Jennings of the Packers.

In addition, there are clearly two different calls made by the officials (see pic above). I failed to see the ref come over and discuss each interpretation. This clearly needed to occur to get the right call on the field. Instead, the ref seemed to go straight to the replay booth.

So, the refs missed the penalty, one missed the call (one got the INT call right), miss handled getting the right call on the field made - all before going to the replay booth.

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September 25th, 2012, 12:17 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
Here is the rule:

Quote:
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two opposing players who both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. However, it is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and retains control, regardless of subsequent joint control with an opponent. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.


Who had control first? Who retained control? There is no question it was M.D. Jennings of the Packers.

In addition, there are clearly two different calls made by the officials (see pic above). I failed to see the ref come over and discuss each interpretation. This clearly needed to occur to get the right call on the field. Instead, the ref seemed to go straight to the replay booth.

So, the refs missed the penalty, one missed the call (one got the INT call right), miss handled getting the right call on the field made - all before going to the replay booth.


But control isn't established until the player follows the rules of a catch. A catch isn't just hands around ball, it has to go through the whole process. Tate had one hand on at same time as Jennings, then gets his second hand before Jennings comes to the ground. Once both players have two feet on the ground, they're both in position.

You're arguing that he had control before it was even a catch. That second part of the rule applies if the initial player is already deemed to have made the catch and then wrestles the ball away. It doesn't apply here at all since at the time of both players touching both feet to the ground, they both have two hands on the ball.

And possession is reviewable in the endzone, so the regular refs got it wrong too?


September 25th, 2012, 12:43 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Here is the rule:

Quote:
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two opposing players who both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. However, it is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and retains control, regardless of subsequent joint control with an opponent. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.


Who had control first? Who retained control? There is no question it was M.D. Jennings of the Packers.

In addition, there are clearly two different calls made by the officials (see pic above). I failed to see the ref come over and discuss each interpretation. This clearly needed to occur to get the right call on the field. Instead, the ref seemed to go straight to the replay booth.

So, the refs missed the penalty, one missed the call (one got the INT call right), miss handled getting the right call on the field made - all before going to the replay booth.


But control isn't established until the player follows the rules of a catch. A catch isn't just hands around ball, it has to go through the whole process. Tate had one hand on at same time as Jennings, then gets his second hand before Jennings comes to the ground. Once both players have two feet on the ground, they're both in position.

You're arguing that he had control before it was even a catch. That second part of the rule applies if the initial player is already deemed to have made the catch and then wrestles the ball away. It doesn't apply here at all since at the time of both players touching both feet to the ground, they both have two hands on the ball.

And possession is reviewable in the endzone, so the regular refs got it wrong too?


you mean the replay officials got it wrong as well, I don't disagree. As for it being a catch by Tate, lets go back to the "maintain control" aspect of being a catch - Tate having two hands touching the ball in no way constitutes him maintaining control. We can apply this to before or after they went to the ground. Only one player on every replay I say maintaned control, and it wasn't the one who was given credit for a GW TD.

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September 25th, 2012, 12:50 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Here is the rule:

Quote:
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two opposing players who both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. However, it is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and retains control, regardless of subsequent joint control with an opponent. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.


Who had control first? Who retained control? There is no question it was M.D. Jennings of the Packers.

In addition, there are clearly two different calls made by the officials (see pic above). I failed to see the ref come over and discuss each interpretation. This clearly needed to occur to get the right call on the field. Instead, the ref seemed to go straight to the replay booth.

So, the refs missed the penalty, one missed the call (one got the INT call right), miss handled getting the right call on the field made - all before going to the replay booth.


But control isn't established until the player follows the rules of a catch. A catch isn't just hands around ball, it has to go through the whole process. Tate had one hand on at same time as Jennings, then gets his second hand before Jennings comes to the ground. Once both players have two feet on the ground, they're both in position.

You're arguing that he had control before it was even a catch. That second part of the rule applies if the initial player is already deemed to have made the catch and then wrestles the ball away. It doesn't apply here at all since at the time of both players touching both feet to the ground, they both have two hands on the ball.

And possession is reviewable in the endzone, so the regular refs got it wrong too?


you mean the replay officials got it wrong as well, I don't disagree. As for it being a catch by Tate, lets go back to the "maintain control" aspect of being a catch - Tate having two hands touching the ball in no way constitutes him maintaining control. We can apply this to before or after they went to the ground. Only one player on every replay I say maintaned control, and it wasn't the one who was given credit for a GW TD.


Two hands on the ball, in bounds is what constitutes a catch. When Jennings came down, they both had that. In the endzone, once they both had two feet down, the play is dead. It's just that moment. I know Jennings twists around, but that's irrelevant. When they come down, they both have possession. It doesn't matter that it's closer to Jennings chest. Placement has no bearing on it.

I completely agree that Jennings has possession in the air. Tate gets his second arm on it later, but until Jennings comes to the ground with both feet, it's not a catch. Since they both have possession once both get two feet on the ground, it's simultaneous possession. Control is only judged on that instance. Not in the air, not after they're on the ground.

It's a non-factor if Tate gets called for PI (which is never called on the offense on a hail mary, can't remember one instance ever) or Jennings knocks the ball out of bounds like he's coached to do.


September 25th, 2012, 1:06 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
right call on the field made - all before going to the replay booth.


But control isn't established until the player follows the rules of a catch. A catch isn't just hands around ball, it has to go through the whole process. [/quote]
I disagree with your interpretation.

Control is part of the process of a catch, it is not all of it. Read article 3 of the section of the NFL rulebook on forward passes. It says that a pass is complete if a player:

a. has control of the ball
b. touches both feet in bounds
c. maintains control of the ball for long enough to make a football move

The above is the "process of a catch".

If "control" amounts to "completing the process of a catch", then the above becomes circular. Replace control with the words "complete the process of a catch" and you get the result that "you complete the process of a catch provided you (a) complete the process of a catch, (b) have two feet in bounds and (c) have completed the process of a catch for long enough to make a football move".

Clearly "control" does not refer to completing the process of a catch and does refer to getting your hands on, and establishing control of, the football.

In other words: control has nothing to do with your feet, it only concerns your hands.

So - did both players get their hands around and obtain control of the football at the same time? If not, it was not a simultaneous catch regardless of whether they both had control at the point their feet landed in bounds.


September 25th, 2012, 1:28 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
In the endzone, once they both had two feet down, the play is dead. It's just that moment.

Do they not have to retain control long enough to make a football move?


September 25th, 2012, 1:32 pm
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Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
PFT wrote:
NFL statement: Result final, Tate should have been flagged
Posted by Darin Gantt on September 25, 2012, 12:26 PM EDT

The NFL has issued its statement on last night’s Packers-Seahawks game, saying that Golden Tate should have been called for pass interference, but the result of the game will not be reversed.

From the league’s release:

“Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

“While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

“Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

“Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

“The result of the game is final.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... n-flagged/

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September 25th, 2012, 1:34 pm
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