View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently October 25th, 2014, 4:53 pm



Reply to topic  [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 NFL faces another labor battle, with officials 
Author Message
Modmin Dude
User avatar

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 am
Posts: 12141
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
NFL.com wrote:
NFL, referees resume on-going negotiations Tuesday
By Albert Breer
Reporter, NFL.com and NFL Network
Published: Sept. 25, 2012 at 01:35 p.m.
Updated: Sept. 25, 2012 at 01:54 p.m


The NFL and NFL Referees Association are continuing discussions Tuesday on a new labor agreement after having discussions Monday by phone, a league source said.

The negotiations are a continuation of the ongoing talks the two sides have had for the last week.

The two sides met for "high-level" discussions in New York on four occasions last week, according to an involved source. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell attended the meetings Saturday and Sunday.

The most prominent issue in recent discussions is the pension. The league has wanted the officials to move from a defined benefit retirement plan (pension) to a defined contribution plan (401k). The NFLRA offered the compromise of having new officials on a 401k plan, with the old officials grandfathered in under the old rules, but the league hasn't accepted that, and the parties remain apart on that issue.

There's also an economic divide, which includes the referees' desired salary, although there's some argument over how significant it is, and disagreement over the employment of full-time officials and backup crews. Multiple sources believe these issues are workable, if an agreement could be reached on the retirement plan.


Follow Albert Breer on Twitter @AlbertBreer.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... line_stack

_________________
Quote:
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....


September 25th, 2012, 2:12 pm
Profile
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2795
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
The pension is the biggest issue. They're part time and 18 teams now have transitioned to 401k plans for full-time employees. The owners want to phase out the pension model, especially for part time employees. The refs also want back pay for any games missed, so it's not exactly close to ending. I don't see it ending until one side or the other give up on the pension deal.


September 25th, 2012, 3:08 pm
Profile
Fired Head Coach (0-16 record)
User avatar

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
NJ, i like you and you have often done extensive (appearing at least) research on rules on this and past issues... but....

Nobody in the country, including the NFL, the officials on site, Every member of both teams, and Everyone in the world watching that play saw Anything but an Offensive PI that wasnt called and an Interception. The Original official totally F'ed the call, and since a replay requires Indisputable proof they couldnt overturn it.

njroar wrote:
As to the pass interference I'd agree, but that wasn't called. The regular refs rarely make that call, so it's a non-issue in the call.


Could not disagree any harder. If there is an accidental bump, or shouldering someone out of the way, or the Jostling is in the middle of a pack trying to receive the Hail Mary it isnt called. IMO that wasnt even a Hail Mary, it wasnt nearly long enough, and he targeted an area of the Endzone, didnt just throw it up to anyone. On top of that, this wasnt "part of the pile", it was a covered receiver Shoving the player covering him to the ground RIGHT IN FRONT OF A REF, and that is called every single time. If it isnt refs should be losing their jobs. Questionable calls can be let go under the premise of "let them play" but Blatant calls that are ignored either show Ineptitude, Favoritism, or potential cheating. Interesting that the same official that didnt call the PI is also the 1 who signaled the TD eh, even though he wasnt the closest official to the ball.

I dont know if its just the Packer hatred coming out, or if you like being a contrarian, but i dont see how any true football fan can come away anything but disgusted about last nights game. I might not even watch another NFL game this year including the Lions I felt so dirty after last night, and I was rooting for the Seahawks. Every Seahawk Player, Fan and Coach should be embarrased about being awarded a Victory they didnt earn. And when this ends up having an impact on the playoff picture later in the year, this issue will be brought back up like a "Black monday" reference over and over ... as it should be.

Unless he goes on to Win Super Bowls, the defining legacy of Russell Wilsons Career will be known as the Only Player in NFL History to Throw a Game Winning Interception.

Note: I made a Poll on another thread about this issue earlier so we can turn this thread back into just a Refs discussion.


September 25th, 2012, 3:33 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
I don't know what people are so upset about last night. It was a simultaneous catch.


In what universe? One player obviously had two hands on the ball and the ball craddled against his chest. The other player is behind him with one hand wrapped around the player touching the ball. That is not a simultaneous catch, that is when both players actually "catch" the ball. Let's not forget the blatant push off before the "simulaneous" catch.

I'm going back to my original argument and I do think player safety is an issue now after a few weeks. Players are pushing the limits of the rule book which is not going to have good long term consequences.

This is downright embarrassing now.


NJ, I agree with you.

BULLLSH!T Pablo... Golden has his left arm in between Jenning's arms, on the ball, and his right around wrapped around Jennings with THAT hand too, on the ball. Golden may have caught the WR AND the ball, but he definitely had two hands on the ball. You really think Jennings wouldn't have been able to wrestle the ball away from 5'10" 185lb Golden Tate if he only had one hand on the ball? Get real...

What pisses me off is this... You have the NFLPA (union) sticking up for the NFLRA (union) being bolstered and supported by the sports writers (who are also in a union), and they're using all of their resources to bully the replacement refs, who have done a pretty good job under the circumstances.

97.1 did a comparison of missed calls. People act like the real refs never missed a call. 97.1's comparison was that the missed calls of the refs and the missed calls of the replacements are about the same. What I find ridiculous is, if ANYONE criticized the real refs, they got fined, ESPN, local news channels and talk radio have whole segments dedicated to pointing out every mistake that the replacement refs are making. If someone did that to the real refs public sentiment would be just as bad regarding their performance.

You can give me that BULLSH!T about the "offensive PI call" not being enforced on the final play, but what NO ONE is talking about is that GB had THREE GUYS who were defensively pass interfering Seattle's 2nd WR on the play. Seattle's 2nd WR had THREE GB PLAYERS all over him, but no one wants to talk about that. They want to cry and stomp their feet and piss and moan about how GB "got screwed." Additionally, EVEN THE REAL RETIRED REF said the NORMAL PROTOCOL that the "REAL REFS" have been told to follow, is to let P.I. calls go in "hail Mary" situations, and let the play stand as played.

Much ado about nothing... whiny people being whiny over a call that was called the way the rules state. I don't like the rule either. It's no different than the Calvin rule, which I also don't like, but it is what it is and both calls were correct per the rules, IMO.


As to the "when are they coming back" argument... I'm so sick and tired of everyone blaming the NFL and the owners for being "petty" and not agreeing to "pittance" and corrupting the game over "pittance."

It takes two parties to tango, and there is a good and very real offer on the table. The regular refs can end this any time they want by signing that deal, end of story. It's not the leagues fault that the regular refs won't sign the deal, and I'm sick of Steve Young and everyone else saying the "League" doesn't care about its players and they should cave... Why? Because next time it's going to be the same bullshit. EVERY TIME the NFLRA sits down at the table they want "more." They want more benefits, more pensions, etc. all on a 24 week per year job. They're already over-paid for what they do... PHUCK 'EM!


September 25th, 2012, 3:52 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9494
Location: Dallas
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Golden has his left arm in between Jenning's arms, on the ball, and his right around wrapped around Jennings with THAT hand too, on the ball.


So Jennings catches the ball with both hands and controls it against his chest. Tate, meanwhile, has one arm between Jennings arms and the other wrapped around one hand but touching the ball that Jennings has craddled between both his ands and chest. But because the one player who obviously didn't make nearly the same catch as the other plays for the offense as opposed to the defense he gets credit. Hummmm, I also call BS but apply it different.

Hell, my wife who doesn't watch football saw the last play and it was as clear as day to a non-football person who caught that ball (Jennings). That speaks volumes.

You said it yourself, the replacement refs have done a pretty good job "under the circumstances" - lets remove those circumstances and get down to football, the job isn't "pretty good" anymore - it is terrible. I watched 3 full games this weekend, all were largely impacted (if not decided) by terrible officiating.

That said, it is clear by the rest of your rant that you have a beef with the regular refs and the entire situation so your stance here allows you to stay consistent in your support of their replacements.

BTW - I'm don't get 97.1 but seriously if they think the missed calls are the same they are using very faulty logic. I mean, put it to the eyeball test - what do your eyes see? If you really see no difference then I've got a used Pinto for you that is as great as a new Lamborghini.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


September 25th, 2012, 5:12 pm
Profile WWW
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2795
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Golden has his left arm in between Jenning's arms, on the ball, and his right around wrapped around Jennings with THAT hand too, on the ball.


So Jennings catches the ball with both hands and controls it against his chest. Tate, meanwhile, has one arm between Jennings arms and the other wrapped around one hand but touching the ball that Jennings has craddled between both his ands and chest. But because the one player who obviously didn't make nearly the same catch as the other plays for the offense as opposed to the defense he gets credit. Hummmm, I also call BS but apply it different.

Hell, my wife who doesn't watch football saw the last play and it was as clear as day to a non-football person who caught that ball (Jennings). That speaks volumes.

You said it yourself, the replacement refs have done a pretty good job "under the circumstances" - lets remove those circumstances and get down to football, the job isn't "pretty good" anymore - it is terrible. I watched 3 full games this weekend, all were largely impacted (if not decided) by terrible officiating.

That said, it is clear by the rest of your rant that you have a beef with the regular refs and the entire situation so your stance here allows you to stay consistent in your support of their replacements.

BTW - I'm don't get 97.1 but seriously if they think the missed calls are the same they are using very faulty logic. I mean, put it to the eyeball test - what do your eyes see? If you really see no difference then I've got a used Pinto for you that is as great as a new Lamborghini.


I understand your point of view Pablo, but against the chest or not doesn't matter. Two hands when the receivers both come to the ground is where the catch is applied. Not before.

Until Jennings comes down to the ground with his second foot, he hasn't completed the process of a catch. At that point is where it's ruled a simultaneous catch.

And you're not alone in your assessment. I'm being blasted by GB fans on my bleacher report article about this lol.

Oh and I notice a complete difference in the officiating. Both made mistakes, but the replacements do it at a much higher frequency.


September 25th, 2012, 5:34 pm
Profile
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Golden has his left arm in between Jenning's arms, on the ball, and his right around wrapped around Jennings with THAT hand too, on the ball.


So Jennings catches the ball with both hands and controls it against his chest. Tate, meanwhile, has one arm between Jennings arms and the other wrapped around one hand but touching the ball that Jennings has craddled between both his ands and chest. But because the one player who obviously didn't make nearly the same catch as the other plays for the offense as opposed to the defense he gets credit. Hummmm, I also call BS but apply it different.


Yes Pablo, that's the rule. Tate's other arm isn't just out there willynilly, it's wrapped around Jennings and also holding onto the ball. Tate has two hands on the ball. Like I said, had Tate not had two hands on the ball Jennings could have, and would have, easily ripped it away.

Pablo wrote:
Hell, my wife who doesn't watch football saw the last play and it was as clear as day to a non-football person who caught that ball (Jennings). That speaks volumes.


Non-issue. In fact, I expect anyone ignorant of the rules would look at it that way. It is a weird play with a poor rule attached to it. Most people that don't watch football or know the rules would say that Calvin's "drop," was a TD, and guess what? THOSE WERE THE REGULAR REFS! Had THAT same play happened now everyone would be up in arms talking about how crappy the replacement refs are, but the fact of the matter is that call was JUST as controversial as this one, and it happened with the REGULAR CREW!

Pablo wrote:
That said, it is clear by the rest of your rant that you have a beef with the regular refs and the entire situation so your stance here allows you to stay consistent in your support of their replacements.


Bullsh!t, I have no "beef" with the regular refs. My "beef" is that everyone is harping on and jumping on the replacements for largely doing what the regular refs do anyhow! They made a big deal that one ref signaled TD, while the other signaled touchback - THAT HAPPENS ALL THE DAMN TIME!!! I'm sick of everyone blaming this thing 100% on the "League" when the League has a very reasonable stance, and the pile of crap that's being attributed to these replacement refs, as if the regular refs are infallible, is ridiculous. I don't believe that the regular refs, not having had the experience of the preseason or the first few weeks are now better equipped to ref the games, I don't believe that the regular refs do a much better job than the replacements, I don't believe what the NFL is asking for is unreasonable, yet 100% of the blame for this labor dispute is falling at the feet of the owners and League. That's not right, period!

I will say, the ONE AREA that I think the regular refs are better at is controlling the after the play BS, but who's fault is that? These guys act like jackasses, clown around on the opposing team's sideline, and then blame the refs for disrupting the flow of the game... BRILLIANT!!! These same guys act like jackasses, go out there and play like they want to kill eachother, have zero regard for retaliation or their own Qb/players, and it's the refs fault. It's the players head hunting that's causing "player safety" issues, yet those same players are then complaining that their safety is in jeopardy... BRILLIANT!!!

:roll:


September 25th, 2012, 5:42 pm
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pm
Posts: 2701
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
You guys are clowns.

Or maybe you just saw bad footage, I don't know.

Watch this clip of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0E_Wlrenk


It's quite clear that Jennings had control of the ball and came down with both feet. Tate grabbed on, but he didn't have control at all whatsoever.


Last edited by TheRealWags on September 26th, 2012, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Display YouTube video in post



September 25th, 2012, 8:19 pm
Profile
1st Round Pick
User avatar

Joined: May 8th, 2010, 4:25 pm
Posts: 1292
Location: Cloudy Town, Minnesota. 763.18 miles from Ford Field
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
Me and my dad had a conversation about this at dinner this evening, and yes the replacements are getting a lot more crap because of blown calls then regular refs. The only big reason why is because when these replacement refs blow the calls, it's WAY more obvious then what a regular ref would do.

_________________
Image

Follow me on Twitter: @W2G4U


September 25th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Profile WWW
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2795
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
DJ-B wrote:
NJ, i like you and you have often done extensive (appearing at least) research on rules on this and past issues... but....

Nobody in the country, including the NFL, the officials on site, Every member of both teams, and Everyone in the world watching that play saw Anything but an Offensive PI that wasnt called and an Interception. The Original official totally F'ed the call, and since a replay requires Indisputable proof they couldnt overturn it.

njroar wrote:
As to the pass interference I'd agree, but that wasn't called. The regular refs rarely make that call, so it's a non-issue in the call.


Could not disagree any harder. If there is an accidental bump, or shouldering someone out of the way, or the Jostling is in the middle of a pack trying to receive the Hail Mary it isnt called. IMO that wasnt even a Hail Mary, it wasnt nearly long enough, and he targeted an area of the Endzone, didnt just throw it up to anyone. On top of that, this wasnt "part of the pile", it was a covered receiver Shoving the player covering him to the ground RIGHT IN FRONT OF A REF, and that is called every single time. If it isnt refs should be losing their jobs. Questionable calls can be let go under the premise of "let them play" but Blatant calls that are ignored either show Ineptitude, Favoritism, or potential cheating. Interesting that the same official that didnt call the PI is also the 1 who signaled the TD eh, even though he wasnt the closest official to the ball.

I dont know if its just the Packer hatred coming out, or if you like being a contrarian, but i dont see how any true football fan can come away anything but disgusted about last nights game. I might not even watch another NFL game this year including the Lions I felt so dirty after last night, and I was rooting for the Seahawks. Every Seahawk Player, Fan and Coach should be embarrased about being awarded a Victory they didnt earn. And when this ends up having an impact on the playoff picture later in the year, this issue will be brought back up like a "Black monday" reference over and over ... as it should be.

Unless he goes on to Win Super Bowls, the defining legacy of Russell Wilsons Career will be known as the Only Player in NFL History to Throw a Game Winning Interception.

Note: I made a Poll on another thread about this issue earlier so we can turn this thread back into just a Refs discussion.


Here's my writeup on it with the breakdown.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1347 ... -touchdown

And watch the slow motion video. The process of the catch doesn't happen until Jennings second foot touches, and at that point, both had possession of the ball. Control is never a problem, because control is just possession without bobbling. Since they are both holding the ball, there's no such thing as who has more control. More control is not a rule.

And I agree on the OPI. It should have been called, but it wasn't. That was the blown call, not the TD. But there is NEVER offensive pass interference on a last second Hail Mary, even if it's too short to be called on in your book.

I'm an NFL fan first, so this isn't about Packer hate. I'd be saying the same thing if GB had been on offense and Seattle was defending. This is about the rules. Touching the ball first, doesn't matter. When it's ruled a catch is. And at that point, both have possession. The section about control in the simultaneous catch is irrelevant in this case.

I've spoken up about right calls and good plays, even when they go against the Lions in the chatroom, so to say I'm just being a contrarian is unfair. I've always been a stickler for the rules. This is one of those rules that's going to have to be reworded in the offseason, much like the catch process after CJ's catch/no-catch fiasco. The media was horrendous last night in saying it wasn't reviewable when it was. They misled everyone on the control section of that rule. They interpreted it wrong and plenty have said it.


September 25th, 2012, 8:58 pm
Profile
Rookie Player of the Year
User avatar

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pm
Posts: 2311
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
The only people still supporting the league are anti-union zealots. But when even Scott Walker calls out the replacements, you know your side is in bad shape.

_________________
Driver of the Jim Caldwell bandwagon. Climb aboard.


September 25th, 2012, 9:37 pm
Profile
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2795
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
We all want the refs back. But they're trying to strong arm the league into unreasonable requests. Union or not, part time employees don't deserve better treatment than full time employees around the league.

Are fans in an uproar over some of the missed calls? Absolutely. Are TV ratings higher than ever? Absolutely. The one thing the regular refs have the replacements don't is experience. They're getting that every week.


September 25th, 2012, 10:01 pm
Profile
Rookie Player of the Year
User avatar

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pm
Posts: 2311
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
But they're trying to strong arm the league into unreasonable requests.


That's like a puppy "strongarming" a bear.

_________________
Driver of the Jim Caldwell bandwagon. Climb aboard.


September 25th, 2012, 10:08 pm
Profile
Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 am
Posts: 2795
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
thelomasbrowns wrote:
njroar wrote:
But they're trying to strong arm the league into unreasonable requests.


That's like a puppy "strongarming" a bear.


The only major holdup is the pension. Yes, you can argue that it's a small portion of the overall money, but its a sticking point for the owners who have other employees that it's unfair too. The next closest issue is the extra backup officials to train and have in case of needing to suspend a crew for their own bad plays, but even that has gotten some concessions.

The only concession on the pension is that the refs want to keep it for them, then let all new officials go to the 401k... not very union-like and sticking up for those that will come behind you. That part is where it looks more selfish.

I have no clue about the % or the money difference between the 401k and the pension, so it could be a bigger deal than i'm thinking it is, I'm just seeing it as an outdated method as the league transitions towards the 401k across the board.


September 25th, 2012, 10:35 pm
Profile
3rd Round Selection

Joined: October 19th, 2005, 1:24 pm
Posts: 1166
Location: Nottingham, England
Post Re: NFL faces another labor battle, with officials
njroar wrote:
Until Jennings comes down to the ground with his second foot, he hasn't completed the process of a catch. At that point is where it's ruled a simultaneous catch.

That's not true. "It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control".

It cannot be a simultaneous catch if one player had control before the other.

Control is a seperate issue to a catch. Control can be established (in fact, must be established under the catch rules) before a catch is completed. Hence it was possible for the GB player to have control before his feet came down.

As such, if the GB player had control before the Hawks player before their feet came down, it could not be a simultaneous catch.


September 26th, 2012, 5:06 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.