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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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OK Cyber GMs. There's been much talk in other forums about replacing coaches in the off season.

Since we have the benefit of hindsight, who should the Lions have hired after the 0-16 season? Schwartz, or someone else? Of the candidates available at the time, who would have been the best choice and why?

I guess the easy answer would be Bill Cowher but I don't think there's a chance he would have come here after an 0-16 season and no quarterback in place. He's been the biggest name in the coaching market since the day he resigned in Pittsburgh and he's declined many offers.

Of the candidates who were brought to Detroit as finalists, Schwartz would probably still be my choice. It will be really interesting to see how Schwartz handles this year's 4-5 start following a playoff run last year. I think the way this team finishes the season could have much to do with Schwartz's long term future in Detroit.

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November 15th, 2012, 5:00 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Personally (and i dont have any evidence to back this up...just hearsay) I think the only team to pull Cower out of retirement would be Chicago. I have heard rumors fly that he has very strong ties there.

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November 15th, 2012, 5:07 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
You have to take a look at who was available (Bill Cowher IMO was not available then). In 2009, ten new head coaches were hired - 80% of them are already gone. The only two that remain are Schwart and Rex Ryan with the Jets, the rest...

Chiefs - Todd Haley (Romeo Crennel)
Raiders - Tom Cable (Dennis Allen)
49ers - Mike Singletary (Jim Harbaugh)
Bucs - Raheem Morris (Greg Schiano)
Browns - Eric Mangini (Pat Shurmur)
Broncos - Josh McDaniels (John Fox)
Colts - Jim Caldwell (Chuck Pagano)
Seahawks - Jim Mora (Pete Carroll)

I'll take Schwartz out of this group. He was the right man to lead the team from 0-16 to the playoffs. The next step is now in question.

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November 15th, 2012, 5:24 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Pablo wrote:
You have to take a look at who was available (Bill Cowher IMO was not available then). In 2009, ten new head coaches were hired - 80% of them are already gone. The only two that remain are Schwart and Rex Ryan with the Jets, the rest...

Chiefs - Todd Haley (Romeo Crennel)
Raiders - Tom Cable (Dennis Allen)
49ers - Mike Singletary (Jim Harbaugh)
Bucs - Raheem Morris (Greg Schiano)
Browns - Eric Mangini (Pat Shurmur)
Broncos - Josh McDaniels (John Fox)
Colts - Jim Caldwell (Chuck Pagano)
Seahawks - Jim Mora (Pete Carroll)

I'll take Schwartz out of this group. He was the right man to lead the team from 0-16 to the playoffs. The next step is now in question.


This right here, and that's the million dollar question..

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November 15th, 2012, 7:21 pm
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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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Post Re: First topic!
Pablo wrote:
You have to take a look at who was available (Bill Cowher IMO was not available then). In 2009, ten new head coaches were hired - 80% of them are already gone. The only two that remain are Schwart and Rex Ryan with the Jets, the rest...

Chiefs - Todd Haley (Romeo Crennel)
Raiders - Tom Cable (Dennis Allen)
49ers - Mike Singletary (Jim Harbaugh)
Bucs - Raheem Morris (Greg Schiano)
Browns - Eric Mangini (Pat Shurmur)
Broncos - Josh McDaniels (John Fox)
Colts - Jim Caldwell (Chuck Pagano)
Seahawks - Jim Mora (Pete Carroll)

I'll take Schwartz out of this group. He was the right man to lead the team from 0-16 to the playoffs. The next step is now in question.


I totally agree. I've often read posts on here about getting a "proven coach" but the truth is "proven coaches" don't want to come to Detroit. Schwartz was actually one of the few candidates who even agreed to interview here. But you're right...he has something to prove this year. I think he'll definitely be back in 2013 regardless but he'll be under the microscope.

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November 15th, 2012, 8:34 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Pablo wrote:
You have to take a look at who was available (Bill Cowher IMO was not available then). In 2009, ten new head coaches were hired - 80% of them are already gone. The only two that remain are Schwart and Rex Ryan with the Jets, the rest...

Chiefs - Todd Haley (Romeo Crennel)
Raiders - Tom Cable (Dennis Allen)
49ers - Mike Singletary (Jim Harbaugh)
Bucs - Raheem Morris (Greg Schiano)
Browns - Eric Mangini (Pat Shurmur)
Broncos - Josh McDaniels (John Fox)
Colts - Jim Caldwell (Chuck Pagano)
Seahawks - Jim Mora (Pete Carroll)

I'll take Schwartz out of this group. He was the right man to lead the team from 0-16 to the playoffs. The next step is now in question.



Very accurate statement.

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November 16th, 2012, 9:50 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Schwartz will definitely be here in 2013. The big question is, what will he have to do to keep his job, or lose his job, next season. I'd say, if he can't get the team out of the NFCN basement in 2013, it's time to punch his ticket. I would also say he's got to get this team back into the playoffs. If that takes replacing members of his staff, like Linehan or Gun, then he has to make those decisions. Personally, I don't think the defense is the issue right now. Stafford hasn't looked good all season. He's had some quarters where he's looked good, but the rest of the time he's been pedestrian, or worse. I don't know what the issue is, but that has to be Schwartz' first order of business. He needs to find out what is wrong with Stafford.

As for the off-season with players, I have said it many times. This team needs a quality safety who can ballhawk. Delmas isn't that guy. And with his continuing injury issues, he can't be counted on. Everybody talks corners, but believe me, the secondary gets HUGELY better with a top notch safety with cover skills. The problem is, those types of players are very tough to find in the FA market (teams don't let them go) and you might get one good one available in the draft, and they get snapped up sooner than expected (ala Mark Barron taken 7th overall).

Secondly, the team needs to get their interior offensive line younger and better. Whether through the draft or through some deals, it has to be done. Get rid of Peterman, first and foremost. Raiola actually isn't having a bad year this year, but we have to get his replacement in here. The Lions have had opportunities in the past two drafts to get highly rated OC/OG type players in the second round. Not getting one of those guys was a big mistake, IMHO.

Get Cliff Avril off our books. He's not worth $10.6M (as I've said repeatedly) and it's now looking like he's a BIG fool for passing on the deal the Lions offered him (3 years, $30M). I'd modify that deal now to something like 3 years, $20M. Take it or leave it. He's not that good folks. He's just not. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are ready to step up. I say give them their chance. Re-sign LoJack, let KVB play out his contract, and we're set.

Corey Williams might have seen his last season here, so we may need at least one DT. Two if we don't retain SLH, which I think the Lions should make every effort to do. I think he's the most underrated D-lineman we have. I also think there are teams running a 34 that would love to get Hill on their team.


Lastly, the Lions have to find replacements at punter and kicker. Not terribly difficult, but still something that has to be done. We all know what a good kicker brings to the team. I don't know that we burn a second round pick on one (like the Lions did for Hanson), but if Jason hangs them up at seasons end, I wouldn't cry if they spent a fifth rounder on a good kicker.

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November 21st, 2012, 1:12 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
m2karateman wrote:
Schwartz will definitely be here in 2013. The big question is, what will he have to do to keep his job, or lose his job, next season. I'd say, if he can't get the team out of the NFCN basement in 2013, it's time to punch his ticket. I would also say he's got to get this team back into the playoffs. If that takes replacing members of his staff, like Linehan or Gun, then he has to make those decisions. Personally, I don't think the defense is the issue right now. Stafford hasn't looked good all season. He's had some quarters where he's looked good, but the rest of the time he's been pedestrian, or worse. I don't know what the issue is, but that has to be Schwartz' first order of business. He needs to find out what is wrong with Stafford.

As for the off-season with players, I have said it many times. This team needs a quality safety who can ballhawk. Delmas isn't that guy. And with his continuing injury issues, he can't be counted on. Everybody talks corners, but believe me, the secondary gets HUGELY better with a top notch safety with cover skills. The problem is, those types of players are very tough to find in the FA market (teams don't let them go) and you might get one good one available in the draft, and they get snapped up sooner than expected (ala Mark Barron taken 7th overall).

Secondly, the team needs to get their interior offensive line younger and better. Whether through the draft or through some deals, it has to be done. Get rid of Peterman, first and foremost. Raiola actually isn't having a bad year this year, but we have to get his replacement in here. The Lions have had opportunities in the past two drafts to get highly rated OC/OG type players in the second round. Not getting one of those guys was a big mistake, IMHO.

Get Cliff Avril off our books. He's not worth $10.6M (as I've said repeatedly) and it's now looking like he's a BIG fool for passing on the deal the Lions offered him (3 years, $30M). I'd modify that deal now to something like 3 years, $20M. Take it or leave it. He's not that good folks. He's just not. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are ready to step up. I say give them their chance. Re-sign LoJack, let KVB play out his contract, and we're set.

Corey Williams might have seen his last season here, so we may need at least one DT. Two if we don't retain SLH, which I think the Lions should make every effort to do. I think he's the most underrated D-lineman we have. I also think there are teams running a 34 that would love to get Hill on their team.


Lastly, the Lions have to find replacements at punter and kicker. Not terribly difficult, but still something that has to be done. We all know what a good kicker brings to the team. I don't know that we burn a second round pick on one (like the Lions did for Hanson), but if Jason hangs them up at seasons end, I wouldn't cry if they spent a fifth rounder on a good kicker.


Though incredibly unlikely, it would be great if Schwartz and Mayhew read this post. It is spot on with the current state of our team. If we could get consistently good run blocking and more accurate passes, there would be less than 4 or 5 offenses in the NFL that are better.

To add, maybe they consider a change at DL coach? We have some of the best talent at DL on our team and our guys can be pretty inconsistent at getting pressure on the quarterback. There are times where it almost doesn't even seem as if we have a defensive line. Just dudes who keep centers and guards from getting too far into the 2nd level.

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November 21st, 2012, 7:53 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Ellie has been terrible this year. As bad as you say avril has been, kvb has been worse.

LoJack is nonexistent and SLH is having a poor year compared to last year. Fairley is playing damn well. Corey is missed, especially with suh on the line. Corey takes some of the double teams off suh. They don't double fairley often, but he makes more plays because of that.

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November 21st, 2012, 9:40 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Ellie?

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November 21st, 2012, 10:24 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
Damn auto correct - Willie

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November 21st, 2012, 11:37 pm
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Post Re: First topic!
conversion02 wrote:
Ellie has been terrible this year. As bad as you say avril has been, kvb has been worse.

LoJack is nonexistent and SLH is having a poor year compared to last year. Fairley is playing damn well. Corey is missed, especially with suh on the line. Corey takes some of the double teams off suh. They don't double fairley often, but he makes more plays because of that.


Couple things....Willie Young and LoJack don't get a chance to play full time, which hurts them in their development and their chance to build consistency. While neither is doing much statistically, I think they can do just as well as KVB and Avril in pressuring the QB. LoJack is, by far, our best run stopping DE. He should be retained for that alone.

SLH, if memory serves me, was injured earlier this season. I don't know that he has completely gotten over that. And while he may not be playing as well as he did last year, statistically speaking, he still gets pressure on the QB when he's in there for passing situations. Opposing teams who don't double team him in those situations pay the price eventually. He's a load, and he holds his ground well. He's also much quicker than most give him credit for.

I don't expect fantastic results from KVB. His benefit to the Lions comes from his energy and activity off the field as much as on the field. Avril has been highly inconsistent, and seems like he just doesn't have his heart on working as hard as he was last season. If he performed the same, I'd happily say pay the man. But when the whole discussion started about his worth, I warned that his performance last year could be a one year thing. Unless he really turns it on in the last few games, he's shown his true self. Sorry, but single digit sacks and incosnistency in your pass rush and pressures doesn't earn you eight figures in Detroit. Let him go to Washington or Dallas, where they happily overpay one year wonders. I'd prefer the money was used on getting some other players at other positions of need.

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November 22nd, 2012, 2:41 pm
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Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

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Post Re: First topic!
m2karateman wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Ellie has been terrible this year. As bad as you say avril has been, kvb has been worse.

LoJack is nonexistent and SLH is having a poor year compared to last year. Fairley is playing damn well. Corey is missed, especially with suh on the line. Corey takes some of the double teams off suh. They don't double fairley often, but he makes more plays because of that.


Couple things....Willie Young and LoJack don't get a chance to play full time, which hurts them in their development and their chance to build consistency. While neither is doing much statistically, I think they can do just as well as KVB and Avril in pressuring the QB. LoJack is, by far, our best run stopping DE. He should be retained for that alone.

SLH, if memory serves me, was injured earlier this season. I don't know that he has completely gotten over that. And while he may not be playing as well as he did last year, statistically speaking, he still gets pressure on the QB when he's in there for passing situations. Opposing teams who don't double team him in those situations pay the price eventually. He's a load, and he holds his ground well. He's also much quicker than most give him credit for.

I don't expect fantastic results from KVB. His benefit to the Lions comes from his energy and activity off the field as much as on the field. Avril has been highly inconsistent, and seems like he just doesn't have his heart on working as hard as he was last season. If he performed the same, I'd happily say pay the man. But when the whole discussion started about his worth, I warned that his performance last year could be a one year thing. Unless he really turns it on in the last few games, he's shown his true self. Sorry, but single digit sacks and incosnistency in your pass rush and pressures doesn't earn you eight figures in Detroit. Let him go to Washington or Dallas, where they happily overpay one year wonders. I'd prefer the money was used on getting some other players at other positions of need.


Avril had 24 tackles and 7 sacks through 11 games last year. He has 24 tackles and 7.5 sacks through 11 games this year. I'm not suggesting Avril's elite, but one can't call him a one-year wonder at this point. Regardless, I think you'll get your wish, as I doubt he'll be resigned. Hope all the Willie Young fans are right because he's not impressed me this year.

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November 23rd, 2012, 10:05 am
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Post Re: First topic!
mwill2 wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Ellie has been terrible this year. As bad as you say avril has been, kvb has been worse.

LoJack is nonexistent and SLH is having a poor year compared to last year. Fairley is playing damn well. Corey is missed, especially with suh on the line. Corey takes some of the double teams off suh. They don't double fairley often, but he makes more plays because of that.


Couple things....Willie Young and LoJack don't get a chance to play full time, which hurts them in their development and their chance to build consistency. While neither is doing much statistically, I think they can do just as well as KVB and Avril in pressuring the QB. LoJack is, by far, our best run stopping DE. He should be retained for that alone.

SLH, if memory serves me, was injured earlier this season. I don't know that he has completely gotten over that. And while he may not be playing as well as he did last year, statistically speaking, he still gets pressure on the QB when he's in there for passing situations. Opposing teams who don't double team him in those situations pay the price eventually. He's a load, and he holds his ground well. He's also much quicker than most give him credit for.

I don't expect fantastic results from KVB. His benefit to the Lions comes from his energy and activity off the field as much as on the field. Avril has been highly inconsistent, and seems like he just doesn't have his heart on working as hard as he was last season. If he performed the same, I'd happily say pay the man. But when the whole discussion started about his worth, I warned that his performance last year could be a one year thing. Unless he really turns it on in the last few games, he's shown his true self. Sorry, but single digit sacks and incosnistency in your pass rush and pressures doesn't earn you eight figures in Detroit. Let him go to Washington or Dallas, where they happily overpay one year wonders. I'd prefer the money was used on getting some other players at other positions of need.


Avril had 24 tackles and 7 sacks through 11 games last year. He has 24 tackles and 7.5 sacks through 11 games this year. I'm not suggesting Avril's elite, but one can't call him a one-year wonder at this point. Regardless, I think you'll get your wish, as I doubt he'll be resigned. Hope all the Willie Young fans are right because he's not impressed me this year.


You're looking just at stats, and that's not a full measure of his impact. He just got two sacks against the Texans, and only because he was playing against a garbage RT. He isn't creating as much pressure as he did last season, and he isn't playing as consistently. He hasn't created as many turnovers this season as he did last season. He's done OK against the run, but I attribute that more to the Wide 9 than his inability to play the run. Still, week in and week out he is going against the lesser tackle on the opposing team. Remember, he TURNED DOWN 3 years at $10M per season to accept his one year franchise tender. To date, he has not shown me nearly enough to prove that he's worth anything near that level of pay. He's not, and never will be. His franchise tender of $10.6M is the average of the top 5 DEs in the league. He's NOT a top 5 DE. I don't even see him as being top 10.

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November 24th, 2012, 1:15 am
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