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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
I just bet that those that are calling for Schwartz to be fired, are the same ones that were calling for Fontes to be fired because it just couldn't get any worse. Never mind that we were in the playoffs almost every year and got the only post season win in 50+ years under Fontes. All the while, I was beating the drum saying," yes it can get worse." And it did.


December 5th, 2012, 8:17 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
IMO Schwartz gets next year, if they're not trending back up then its time for a replacement; IF someone better is available that is. I would push for some changes on the defensive side of the ball, new DC or scheme/tweaks or other coaches as well as an infusion of talent in the back 7.

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December 6th, 2012, 8:44 am
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
BillySims wrote:
YEAH!!!!!!!! CAUSE CHANGING COACHES/SYSTEMS LEADING TO CHANGING PLAYERS TO FIT THE NEW SCHEMES HAS PROVEN SO SUCCESSFUL.

I hope Mr. Ford not that stupid.

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December 6th, 2012, 9:27 am
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
Personally I think Schwartz should start thinking about calling defensive plays (he just recently confirmed that he does not call plays, only sets the tone for drives). He's had long enough to learn the head coaching thing--I think we need smarter defensive playcalling, which he could bring to the table.

On the offensive side, I would like to see Staff get a quarterback coach. There are documented issues with his mechanics that have led to the inconsistencies we've seen this year. I would also like to look at OCs, but only replace Linehan if we can find somebody better, not just for the sake of doing it. Pat Schmur would be a good option if he's let go in Cleveland (which is very possible with the new GM/owner)--he worked wonders with Bradford before he got the Browns job.

Crossman and Logan obviously have to be gone. The thing I liked about Schwartz and Mayhew is that they were so ruthless when they first came in--remember when Mayhew said, "There have been too many hugs around here"? Mayhew strongly implied over the Summer that he got the team the players it needed and now the coaches have to go out and win games (I'm aware this is debatable). I'm hoping the lack of wins this year encourages Mayhew to be tougher with his assessments of players and coaches in the offseason.

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December 6th, 2012, 10:36 am
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
ZAndrews81 wrote:
We need to put together a petition for Cowher!


I think I'd prefer Cowher to Schwartz as of right now.


December 6th, 2012, 2:03 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
BillySims wrote:
I just bet that those that are calling for Schwartz to be fired, are the same ones that were calling for Fontes to be fired because it just couldn't get any worse. Never mind that we were in the playoffs almost every year and got the only post season win in 50+ years under Fontes. All the while, I was beating the drum saying," yes it can get worse." And it did.


Neither Fontes or Scwartz will ever win a Super Bowl, and that's the real goal. How many playoff games did we win under Fontes?

Further, just because it "can get worse" it doesn't mean you settle for mediocrity.


December 6th, 2012, 2:32 pm
Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
regularjoe12 wrote:
jcmessing wrote:
Those defending the position of keeping Schwartz around are not speaking about anything that Schwartz can actually provide as a coach, but rather to fears about "starting over" and "going backward".
This argument carries no weight. Poor leadership is poor leadership. Keeping them around for fear of change only prolongs the losing atmosphere (see Matt Millen). A good organization recognizes when their leadership is failing and corrects it.



It's not fear when it's just common sense. Bringing in a new nobody who hasn't yet expirienced the hump we're trying to get over will not help this team. We have the talent to be playoff contenders, bringing in a guy who is not used to that level of pressure would not help this team bit. It would hinder it.


That's not necessarily true RJ, there are some first year HCs that come in and kill it. Look at what Harbaugh did.


December 6th, 2012, 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
jcmessing wrote:
Those defending the position of keeping Schwartz around are not speaking about anything that Schwartz can actually provide as a coach, but rather to fears about "starting over" and "going backward".
This argument carries no weight. Poor leadership is poor leadership. Keeping them around for fear of change only prolongs the losing atmosphere (see Matt Millen). A good organization recognizes when their leadership is failing and corrects it.



It's not fear when it's just common sense. Bringing in a new nobody who hasn't yet expirienced the hump we're trying to get over will not help this team. We have the talent to be playoff contenders, bringing in a guy who is not used to that level of pressure would not help this team bit. It would hinder it.


That's not necessarily true RJ, there are some first year HCs that come in and kill it. Look at what Harbaugh did.

Would you consider Harbaugh the rule? Or the exception to the rule?

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December 6th, 2012, 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
regularjoe12 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
jcmessing wrote:
Those defending the position of keeping Schwartz around are not speaking about anything that Schwartz can actually provide as a coach, but rather to fears about "starting over" and "going backward".
This argument carries no weight. Poor leadership is poor leadership. Keeping them around for fear of change only prolongs the losing atmosphere (see Matt Millen). A good organization recognizes when their leadership is failing and corrects it.



It's not fear when it's just common sense. Bringing in a new nobody who hasn't yet expirienced the hump we're trying to get over will not help this team. We have the talent to be playoff contenders, bringing in a guy who is not used to that level of pressure would not help this team bit. It would hinder it.


That's not necessarily true RJ, there are some first year HCs that come in and kill it. Look at what Harbaugh did.

Would you consider Harbaugh the rule? Or the exception to the rule?


Neither (I don't even consider him a success just yet, but he's well on his way!)...

However, IMO coaching has more to do with your personality and approach to problem solving than anything. A HC needs to be a people person, a motivator, and he needs to know how to manage different personalities. Ever notice that some coaches can take a problem child and turn them into a model citizen (at least on the football field)? There's a reason for that. Good coaches know how to read people, they know what motivates people (for some people it's money (well, ok, it's money for everyone, but different people place different values on money), for some it's team comradery (the good of the team), for some it's winning (the good of the common goal), for some it's your family (look how proud your Mom would be!), but good coaches realize that, manipulate their players accordingly, and guess what? The players LOVE them for it. Why wouldn't' they? The coach is doing nothing but giving them exactly what they want, and telling them exactly what they want to hear.

To me, the job of being a coach is somewhere between 70-90% being a "people person," but that doesn't mean that I think that a coach should be "nice." When I say people person, I just mean that the coach has to recognize that persons motivation factors and use it not only for positive motivation, but also for discipline. Take Titus for example, he doesn't care if he sits home and doesn't play. Look at how he responded. Why was he hurt in the first place? Because he is super insecure, has a huge ego, and he felt "hurt" and probably embarrassed that he wasn't getting the ball more. Maybe he should have been embarrassed in practice, or on TV, or in front of the team, or maybe he should have had his ego stroked a little. I'm not saying reward his bad behavior, but before his behavior got bad a few "you may just be our #2 next season if you keep this up... Hell, you may be our #2 this year!" may have avoided this whole thing, but that's not Schwartz's style. He doesn't analyze and respond. Schwartz has one tool in his bag, and he rarely uses it... The only tool the guy has is a hammer, and he tries to fix every problem with it, which is why we have holes all over the locker-room walls, disgruntled teammates, and a crappy, no-cohesive product on the field.

I do think a coach can make mistakes and grow. If a coach has the mindset that he needs to read and analyze, but perhaps analyzed wrong, or picked an inappropriate remedy for the problem, I think that can be fixed. Schwartz problems, however, go much MUCH deeper than that. The guy can't even admit when he's wrong, and that's the first step. If being a great coach was a 12 step program I think you can take a coach through steps 5-12 in a relatively short period of maturation and growth. I think you can do it in a time period that doesn't sour him with the team, and in a manner that makes the entire until gel and work together. Where Schwartz is coming from, however, is too far down the line. The guy hasn't admitted step 1 yet (that he sucks), so going any further with him is futile, and the process would take too long, maybe 10 years from now, maybe with another team, after he's learned and settled down, but his time here is done.

What's that mean for a new HC? If he has the personality and mind-set for the job I think anyone with a moderately high football IQ can do the job. That's why I would consider Kirk Ferentz or Jim Tressel for the job, despite the fact that they've never held the NFL position before.


December 6th, 2012, 3:18 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
jcmessing wrote:
Those defending the position of keeping Schwartz around are not speaking about anything that Schwartz can actually provide as a coach, but rather to fears about "starting over" and "going backward".
This argument carries no weight. Poor leadership is poor leadership. Keeping them around for fear of change only prolongs the losing atmosphere (see Matt Millen). A good organization recognizes when their leadership is failing and corrects it.



It's not fear when it's just common sense. Bringing in a new nobody who hasn't yet expirienced the hump we're trying to get over will not help this team. We have the talent to be playoff contenders, bringing in a guy who is not used to that level of pressure would not help this team bit. It would hinder it.


That's not necessarily true RJ, there are some first year HCs that come in and kill it. Look at what Harbaugh did.

Would you consider Harbaugh the rule? Or the exception to the rule?


Neither (I don't even consider him a success just yet, but he's well on his way!)...

However, IMO coaching has more to do with your personality and approach to problem solving than anything. A HC needs to be a people person, a motivator, and he needs to know how to manage different personalities. Ever notice that some coaches can take a problem child and turn them into a model citizen (at least on the football field)? There's a reason for that. Good coaches know how to read people, they know what motivates people (for some people it's money (well, ok, it's money for everyone, but different people place different values on money), for some it's team comradery (the good of the team), for some it's winning (the good of the common goal), for some it's your family (look how proud your Mom would be!), but good coaches realize that, manipulate their players accordingly, and guess what? The players LOVE them for it. Why wouldn't' they? The coach is doing nothing but giving them exactly what they want, and telling them exactly what they want to hear.

To me, the job of being a coach is somewhere between 70-90% being a "people person," but that doesn't mean that I think that a coach should be "nice." When I say people person, I just mean that the coach has to recognize that persons motivation factors and use it not only for positive motivation, but also for discipline. Take Titus for example, he doesn't care if he sits home and doesn't play. Look at how he responded. Why was he hurt in the first place? Because he is super insecure, has a huge ego, and he felt "hurt" and probably embarrassed that he wasn't getting the ball more. Maybe he should have been embarrassed in practice, or on TV, or in front of the team, or maybe he should have had his ego stroked a little. I'm not saying reward his bad behavior, but before his behavior got bad a few "you may just be our #2 next season if you keep this up... Hell, you may be our #2 this year!" may have avoided this whole thing, but that's not Schwartz's style. He doesn't analyze and respond. Schwartz has one tool in his bag, and he rarely uses it... The only tool the guy has is a hammer, and he tries to fix every problem with it, which is why we have holes all over the locker-room walls, disgruntled teammates, and a crappy, no-cohesive product on the field.

I do think a coach can make mistakes and grow. If a coach has the mindset that he needs to read and analyze, but perhaps analyzed wrong, or picked an inappropriate remedy for the problem, I think that can be fixed. Schwartz problems, however, go much MUCH deeper than that. The guy can't even admit when he's wrong, and that's the first step. If being a great coach was a 12 step program I think you can take a coach through steps 5-12 in a relatively short period of maturation and growth. I think you can do it in a time period that doesn't sour him with the team, and in a manner that makes the entire until gel and work together. Where Schwartz is coming from, however, is too far down the line. The guy hasn't admitted step 1 yet (that he sucks), so going any further with him is futile, and the process would take too long, maybe 10 years from now, maybe with another team, after he's learned and settled down, but his time here is done.

What's that mean for a new HC? If he has the personality and mind-set for the job I think anyone with a moderately high football IQ can do the job. That's why I would consider Kirk Ferentz or Jim Tressel for the job, despite the fact that they've never held the NFL position before.


Thisthisthis

I'll start off with some examples. Aaron Hernandez, patriots TE is a complete fool coming out of college, always getting arrested and had character issues. Belichick transforms him ino a hard working, team first player and he's easily a top 6-7 TE now. Another is Greg schiano with the bucs. There is literally complete weakness at every defensive position and their offense has had a bunch of injuries but they're 6-5 compared to being a complete joke last year. He didn't like what aqib talib was like as a person and probably don't like his work ethic, so he LET HIM GO and got a good draft pick for it. He did a remarkable thing bringing on a paralyze college player and showing the players how blessed they truly are. He's the epitome of a people's coach and is bring out the absolute best of that team. That's who we need running the show, period.

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December 6th, 2012, 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
PTI today, discussing Suh and the comments made by another player on the team that stated openly that Suh just doesn't get it and is a distraction, both Wilbon and Kornheiser stated this falls on the head coach.

I know it's hard to embrace change when there has been a history of outright failure due to change, but if the Lions are going to win on a consistent basis they need to uphold a certain standard of success and accountability, and Schwartz has failed to get this team to play at its potential. Any coach who isn't achieving that end should be fired, regardless of the history of the organization. The goal is to make the playoffs, win the division, and win the Super Bowl. That isn't going to happen consistently with Schwartz.

There are good coaches out there. Who? I don't know who, that's the GM and ownerships job to figure out.
What they're not getting paid to do is accept an undisciplined, underperforming, mentally weak, poor behaving, immature result when they provide a talented roster.


December 7th, 2012, 9:24 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
jcmessing wrote:
PTI today, discussing Suh and the comments made by another player on the team that stated openly that Suh just doesn't get it and is a distraction, both Wilbon and Kornheiser stated this falls on the head coach.

I know it's hard to embrace change when there has been a history of outright failure due to change, but if the Lions are going to win on a consistent basis they need to uphold a certain standard of success and accountability, and Schwartz has failed to get this team to play at its potential. Any coach who isn't achieving that end should be fired, regardless of the history of the organization. The goal is to make the playoffs, win the division, and win the Super Bowl. That isn't going to happen consistently with Schwartz.

There are good coaches out there. Who? I don't know who, that's the GM and ownerships job to figure out.
What they're not getting paid to do is accept an undisciplined, underperforming, mentally weak, poor behaving, immature result when they provide a talented roster.


Well said. But unfortunately, and IMO, I dont see ANY changes this coming offseason in terms of the coaching staff because I see way too much loyalty. Most teams, when a certain unit is underachieving consistently, fire their respective coordinator or coach. Not the Lions. Oh no. Just more excuses week after week. They just keep saying what they did wrong and what they need to do in their upcoming match up. The problem? It never changes.

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December 7th, 2012, 10:21 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
kdsberman wrote:
Well said. But unfortunately, and IMO, I dont see ANY changes this coming offseason in terms of the coaching staff because I see way too much loyalty. Most teams, when a certain unit is underachieving consistently, fire their respective coordinator or coach. Not the Lions. Oh no. Just more excuses week after week. They just keep saying what they did wrong and what they need to do in their upcoming match up. The problem? It never changes.


I think the possibility to change coaches is huge this off season especially if the Lions do the unthinkable and lose out. With Cowher and Gruden both out their waiting for the best situation the Lions have to consider it. The Lions have exactly what these coaches want, a QB worth building around, Gruden especially. If the Lions lose out I'll put a 75% chance of change.


December 7th, 2012, 10:45 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
Cowher has been out for years. Why would he come back? The guy is still obsessed with the steelers, why would he come here? Don't get your hopes up.

I like gruden, but it's getting the same with him. Why come back with his cushy MNF gig?

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December 7th, 2012, 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Shwartz has got to go
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Personally I think Schwartz should start thinking about calling defensive plays (he just recently confirmed that he does not call plays, only sets the tone for drives). He's had long enough to learn the head coaching thing--I think we need smarter defensive playcalling, which he could bring to the table.

On the offensive side, I would like to see Staff get a quarterback coach. There are documented issues with his mechanics that have led to the inconsistencies we've seen this year. I would also like to look at OCs, but only replace Linehan if we can find somebody better, not just for the sake of doing it. Pat Schmur would be a good option if he's let go in Cleveland (which is very possible with the new GM/owner)--he worked wonders with Bradford before he got the Browns job.

Crossman and Logan obviously have to be gone. The thing I liked about Schwartz and Mayhew is that they were so ruthless when they first came in--remember when Mayhew said, "There have been too many hugs around here"? Mayhew strongly implied over the Summer that he got the team the players it needed and now the coaches have to go out and win games (I'm aware this is debatable). I'm hoping the lack of wins this year encourages Mayhew to be tougher with his assessments of players and coaches in the offseason.


Have you seen the bad PR Miami got when the owner tried to hire a new HC before he fired the old one? If you gonna look for a new coach, you fire the old one first. Or you will never get a meeting with any of the good coaches you would want to replace the one you have. And Pat Shurmer would be a terrible choice for OC for us. We would have to draft another QB because Stafford is not a Wet Toast Offense type of QB. He is a Spread Offense type of QB.


December 8th, 2012, 2:01 pm
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