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 GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals 
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
BillySims wrote:
Shotty wrote:
liontrax wrote:
Oh well, we just improved our draft slot, and today's game against a poor but inspired team proves we we have a long way to go in improving the talent base.


That's the WCF way of looking at things.

If this was one of any of the other 31 franchises, Schwartz would be gone IMMEDIATELY after this game, if not before. This team has given up, and it's that simple.


That is wrong. You think everything went peachy for Bill Cower when he was rebuilding the Steelers. He had a couple of rotten years there. You make a mess in your underwear. Yes, by all means. Make a change. You hire a coach, you give him more than 3 years to get things working. The Steeler way works. Yes, Schwartz should be on the hot seat next year. But, he should remain the coach.


Actually, Bill Cowher didn't win less than 9 games for his first 6 seasons in the NFL, he went to the playoffs all 6 years, and lost a SB to the LOADED Dallas Cowboys in 1995, with a mediocre Qb. They were divisional champs for the first time in 8 years in Cowhers FIRST SEASON with the Steelers, and conference champs just three years later.

Further, in his coaching career spanning 15 years, he never lost more than 6 games, despite the franchise going through a rebuilding year, picking up a new Qb not once but TWICE,

What some on this board fail to take notice of, is that Cowher never had the personality issues that Schwartz has in his coaching career. Schwartz is fundamentally flawed, and doesn't have the personal makeup necessary to be a coach. The longer we hold onto him, the longer we hold-back our progress. We are at a crucial junction with this football team, make a run with the GOOD GROUP OF CORE PLAYERS WE HAVE, or stick with mediocrity and waste the opportunity.


December 18th, 2012, 2:38 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
Cowher didn't take over for a failing franchise, he took over from an aging and retiring Chuck Knoll. Big difference. They had a strong front office in place that was still searching for a QB to replace Bradshaw but were never bad enough to draft one very high in the draft. They were also in a poor division back then. AFC Norris was Cleveland (prior to going to Baltimore) Houston, and Cincinnati. They were a clinch for the playoffs as long as they had a winning record.

Cowher also was always angry on the sidelines and his personality was often questioned. But the big difference was Cowher was groomed to be the replacement of Knoll, where as Schwartz was hired to replace. Cowher was more ready.

I have no problem replacing Schwartz. The problem is finding the right replacement. Cowher's been out of it for awhile. New coaches often have a growing period, so it's either another inexperienced coach or a veteran that didn't work out elsewhere. I think if anyone is going to get the axe, it'll be Linehan and Gun. Changing things up in those regards would do more and see if Schwartz grows or stays stagnant. I think being patient and seeing who opens up after the season is over is better than firing now and using an interim.


December 18th, 2012, 3:19 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "This team is not playing with any HEART."

Last year, they were tired of being whipping boys, they were able to see the surrounding talent, and demonstrate a will to win. Then the off season comes and I believe they got too full of themselves. You see that in the immaturity of T. Young, Fairley, Culbreath, Brown, and LeShoure.

Stafford has been WAY OFF, despite his numbers, and the picture on the home page here is appropriate. A head buried in shame, because we've lost heart.

The question is, "is there a desire to find it, and get it back?"

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December 18th, 2012, 3:31 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "This team is not playing with any HEART."

Last year, they were tired of being whipping boys, they were able to see the surrounding talent, and demonstrate a will to win. Then the off season comes and I believe they got too full of themselves. You see that in the immaturity of T. Young, Fairley, Culbreath, Brown, and LeShoure.

Stafford has been WAY OFF, despite his numbers, and the picture on the home page here is appropriate. A head buried in shame, because we've lost heart.

The question is, "is there a desire to find it, and get it back?"


Wait wait wait... Leshoure and Fairly haven't been on the team or in the NFL long enough to get "full of themselves" and complacent. Culbreath was a never was, and what mistakes did Everett Brown make? He seemed to just lose his job from the Avril thing, but I could be mistaken. Either way, neither of those guys were team leaders, and their play one way or another is really inconsequential.

Titus, IMO, is an entirely different story. He was immature in allegedly stating that he's "better than CJ," but his poor play and poor decisions came from a LACK OF BEING REWARDED for his prior GOOD play. Titus deserved to go into this season as our #2, period. Nate was washed up, dropped a ton of balls, and had zero speed or ability to get separation from a #2 CB. Titus has that ability, but the TEAMS LOYALTY to aging washed-up vets effected Titus' attitude.

Now don't get me wrong, he didn't handle it in the right manner, but he wasn't treated properly prior to his poor decision making, that likely cost us a real #2 WR.

FWIW, the inability to "professionalize" our players or assimilate them into the NFL seems to me to be a management/coaching problem, and one that we've had here for YEARS. Our draft picks never really seem to grasp the idea of what it means to be a "professional" anything, let alone multimillion dollar athlete. IMO, all of the problems you just outlined are directly attributable to the HC and management.


December 18th, 2012, 4:13 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Titus, IMO, is an entirely different story. He was immature in allegedly stating that he's "better than CJ," but his poor play and poor decisions came from a LACK OF BEING REWARDED for his prior GOOD play. Titus deserved to go into this season as our #2, period. Nate was washed up, dropped a ton of balls, and had zero speed or ability to get separation from a #2 CB. Titus has that ability, but the TEAMS LOYALTY to aging washed-up vets effected Titus' attitude.

Now don't get me wrong, he didn't handle it in the right manner, but he wasn't treated properly prior to his poor decision making, that likely cost us a real #2 WR.


Titus sucker punched Delmas back in May, he did NOT deserve to enter training camp in late July as the #2 WR after that stunt - come on. As for the washed up Nate, let's not forget he was coming off of a 73-reception career year (Titus had 48 catches).

You really wanted to give this kid, who already had through his words shown how entitled he was, a reward for underperforming a washed up vet and punching out a teammate? That sure would send the right message to the rest of the team.... :roll:

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December 18th, 2012, 5:05 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Titus, IMO, is an entirely different story. He was immature in allegedly stating that he's "better than CJ," but his poor play and poor decisions came from a LACK OF BEING REWARDED for his prior GOOD play. Titus deserved to go into this season as our #2, period. Nate was washed up, dropped a ton of balls, and had zero speed or ability to get separation from a #2 CB. Titus has that ability, but the TEAMS LOYALTY to aging washed-up vets effected Titus' attitude.

Now don't get me wrong, he didn't handle it in the right manner, but he wasn't treated properly prior to his poor decision making, that likely cost us a real #2 WR.


Titus sucker punched Delmas back in May, he did NOT deserve to enter training camp in late July as the #2 WR after that stunt - come on. As for the washed up Nate, let's not forget he was coming off of a 73-reception career year (Titus had 48 catches).

You really wanted to give this kid, who already had through his words shown how entitled he was, a reward for underperforming a washed up vet and punching out a teammate? That sure would send the right message to the rest of the team.... :roll:


I don't think you hold the personal stuff against him, or at least explain to him that he WOULD be the #2 had it not been for the punch.

If you wanted to properly punish Titus, make him sit out some games, but still make him the #2. His talent set far outweighed Nate's, and his proper roll was at #2, at least on our sorry team.


December 18th, 2012, 5:35 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
The Legend wrote:
Hystrix wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Ok. Im not saying fire Schwartz. BUT, do you really believe this guy is the answer? Why keep playing this game when we can try something different. Regardless of what we both think, you'll at least get what you want because Mr. Ford aint firing no one.



I don't know, man. I'm not sure Schwartz is the answer, but continuisly going though coaches isn't good for the team.

Remember Barry Sanders? He quit the game, because we started rebuilding. The Leos had done that his whole career.

Look, in the off season they trim some fat. They re-evaluate. They take a hard look at the franchise. But just "fire everybody" isn't going to help.


In Barry's opinion they started re building but the team s management was actually going in the right direction. They made the playoffs the same season there best player retired the day before training camp. Barry has stated maybe he wouldnt have retired if they had had good teams. Well, had he played that season maybe they would have had a shot.

As for being scared of what might happen if Schwartz were fired, I ask you to consider the alternative - returning Schwartz and crew for 2013. What is your prediction for the 2013 season? IMO a lot of the problems with this team are coming directly from Schwartz. They had enough talent to contend for a playoff spot this season but Schwartz himself threw away two games - Houston with the red flag and Indianapolis with the conservative "prevent offense" strategy that came from him - not Linehan. What happened in the Houston game is telling, Schwartz said in the post game presser that he threw the flag because he was angry with the call and was still mad about an unsuccessful challenge. The unsuccessful challenge, of course happened in the 1st quarter and the "red flag"/82 yd TD run happened in the 3rd quarter. A head coach needs to able to shake that kind of thing off, he cannot let his emotions get in the way of making the right decisions for his team. But we see Schwartz on the sideline time and time again unable to conrol his emotions. Instead of calling a timeout before the playclock goes off or letting his QB know that it was his mistake, Schwartz ridicules the referee - who by the way made a perfectly correct call. Anyway, the disorganization continues and a play later, Stafford and Kris Durham have a mix up and instead of a 7 point game the Lions are down 21 with a pick 6. Good coaching averts these problems but bad coaching propagates them. The lack of discipline, the offsides penalties, the after the whistle penalties of last year that stopped the Lions in big games, the general sloppiness - they all stem from the head coach. This team is not well coached and it hasnt been for two seasons running. Why would we expect it to be better next season when they probably cant even bring back the same level of talent?


Not going to argue with any of this. Even when we lose out, we will stay with Schwartz, cause that's how things are done with the Lions.

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December 18th, 2012, 6:02 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
We've all heard the old adage, Pride goeth before a fall right?

Well think of it from this perspective. These guys played in top notch schools, and were good enough to make the team and play a significant role. They became "stars" at their school, and therefore had some BMOC aura about them. Now take them into the draft, and let these young men make MILLIONS for playing a game, and mix that with immaturity. At 22, I didn't have nearly as much wisdom as I do now at 42. Wisdom comes from trials, and painful experience. So in essence you've handed these guys something they probably never experienced growing up. Does the possibility exist that deviant behavior, or trouble that they got into in college was lightly disciplined if at all, because they were the star? How many movies have we seen that illustrate that example? He's untouchable because he's so and so, and so they get a pass on their behavior that follows them to the next level. So when they do get checked on their behavior, they don't really know how to deal with it, because it's new to them. There status has always gotten them by before, why not now?

That's what I was saying.

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December 19th, 2012, 9:52 am
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Titus, IMO, is an entirely different story. He was immature in allegedly stating that he's "better than CJ," but his poor play and poor decisions came from a LACK OF BEING REWARDED for his prior GOOD play. Titus deserved to go into this season as our #2, period. Nate was washed up, dropped a ton of balls, and had zero speed or ability to get separation from a #2 CB. Titus has that ability, but the TEAMS LOYALTY to aging washed-up vets effected Titus' attitude.

Now don't get me wrong, he didn't handle it in the right manner, but he wasn't treated properly prior to his poor decision making, that likely cost us a real #2 WR.


Titus sucker punched Delmas back in May, he did NOT deserve to enter training camp in late July as the #2 WR after that stunt - come on. As for the washed up Nate, let's not forget he was coming off of a 73-reception career year (Titus had 48 catches).

You really wanted to give this kid, who already had through his words shown how entitled he was, a reward for underperforming a washed up vet and punching out a teammate? That sure would send the right message to the rest of the team.... :roll:


I don't think you hold the personal stuff against him, or at least explain to him that he WOULD be the #2 had it not been for the punch.

If you wanted to properly punish Titus, make him sit out some games, but still make him the #2. His talent set far outweighed Nate's, and his proper roll was at #2, at least on our sorry team.


Sorry, that's just not being a professional. You have to pay your dues, and if you're the new guy, you're not even owed an explanation. You always talk sh** about Nate, but he has been productive in his time here. Maybe not up to the level of his contract, but he has generally played well. For a rookie to basically demand to be moved ahead of a solid vet on the depth chart is ridiculous. The guy even thinks he's better than CJ, so that shows you how accurately he assesses his own ability. It's obvious he needs to/needed to be humbled.

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December 19th, 2012, 10:04 am
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Sorry, that's just not being a professional. You have to pay your dues, and if you're the new guy, you're not even owed an explanation. You always talk sh** about Nate, but he has been productive in his time here. Maybe not up to the level of his contract, but he has generally played well. For a rookie to basically demand to be moved ahead of a solid vet on the depth chart is ridiculous. The guy even thinks he's better than CJ, so that shows you how accurately he assesses his own ability. It's obvious he needs to/needed to be humbled.


You're completely wrong. "Paying your dues" or some BS hazing ritual is exactly the mentality that's gotten us into this mess. IMO Titus was a time-bomb waiting to happen, and he never should have been drafted where we took him. That said, the mistake was made and I think we COULD have kicked the can down the road in a manner that allowed us to trade him away and cover up the mistake. Had we fed into his BS for ONE SEASON, started him as the #2, gotten him 60-80 catches, close to 1,000 yards, and 6+ TDs to go with it, we could have dumped him for a 2nd or possibly a later first round draft pick. Now we get nothing, except POSSIBLY a 5th - 7th round pick. Would it taken a lot of management/coddling? You bet ya, but it would have been worth it. Why? Because it would have helped the TEAM, and that's what it's all about.

You guys don't get it. You're so irrational and, perhaps oddly principled, that you can't stand the idea of coddling someone that "doesn't deserve it," but whether or not he deserves it, if it benefits the TEAM, you do it, period.

You guys say "Nate has earned it," the TEAM says "there's no accountability," I'm going with the team. You guys said that "the TEAM would be mad if we cut/traded Nate" last year, I couldn't disagree more. Everyone knows he lost a step, everyone knows he can't play like he played when we picked him up, and everyone knows he dropped a ton of passes, and had to cheat to get open. The fact that we kept him on is a rampant display of a lack of accountibility. Now, if the players come to the GM and say "MAN, THIS IS BS, TITUS GOT HANDED THE #2," the GM simply has to tell them, I'm dealing with the situation in an appropriate way, keep your head up, keep doing the right thing, I see everything, and it will be handled. Then in the offseason you go about handling it in the right way, but getting this damn cancer off of the team AND getting something for him. Then you go back to said player, say Broyles, and give him a wink and say "Told you I'd take care of it..."

But the bottom line is Mayhew himself isn't that rational. He too is an emotional fool that allows himself to be controlled (allegedly Scwartz made the Titus pick and the Javid Best pick). Those two are a pack of clowns, and if you can't see it you've got blue blinders on.


December 19th, 2012, 10:32 am
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
DJ-B wrote:
I'm not saying the Lions are the 9ers, but did SF "Rebuild" when they brought Harbaugh in? There are plenty of other examples of this i'm sure. Yes, the Lions (Run by WCF Sr + Millen for a solid portion of time) have restarted time and again with coaches.. but they often tried entirely different coaches with wildly diff schemes (tampon 2, martz offense, etc) that required retools of the roster. The lions now have the Core they need, and with a few good draft picks and intelligent veteran signing should def be contending for playoffs. Bring in the RIGHT coach with a proven track record of getting the most from their players. The team will "BUY_IN" again, which its pretty obvious to me most of them dont at this pt, and you move forward from where we are. As long as they dont hire a rookie HC with a narrow systemic view of how to run a team they can move forward without taking steps back.


You mean proven coaches with great credentials like Booby Ross and Steve Mariucci? Good attempt. Poor result.


December 20th, 2012, 1:01 am
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
wjb21ndtown wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Sorry, that's just not being a professional. You have to pay your dues, and if you're the new guy, you're not even owed an explanation. You always talk sh** about Nate, but he has been productive in his time here. Maybe not up to the level of his contract, but he has generally played well. For a rookie to basically demand to be moved ahead of a solid vet on the depth chart is ridiculous. The guy even thinks he's better than CJ, so that shows you how accurately he assesses his own ability. It's obvious he needs to/needed to be humbled.


You're completely wrong. "Paying your dues" or some BS hazing ritual is exactly the mentality that's gotten us into this mess. IMO Titus was a time-bomb waiting to happen, and he never should have been drafted where we took him. That said, the mistake was made and I think we COULD have kicked the can down the road in a manner that allowed us to trade him away and cover up the mistake. Had we fed into his BS for ONE SEASON, started him as the #2, gotten him 60-80 catches, close to 1,000 yards, and 6+ TDs to go with it, we could have dumped him for a 2nd or possibly a later first round draft pick. Now we get nothing, except POSSIBLY a 5th - 7th round pick. Would it taken a lot of management/coddling? You bet ya, but it would have been worth it. Why? Because it would have helped the TEAM, and that's what it's all about.

You guys don't get it. You're so irrational and, perhaps oddly principled, that you can't stand the idea of coddling someone that "doesn't deserve it," but whether or not he deserves it, if it benefits the TEAM, you do it, period.

You guys say "Nate has earned it," the TEAM says "there's no accountability," I'm going with the team. You guys said that "the TEAM would be mad if we cut/traded Nate" last year, I couldn't disagree more. Everyone knows he lost a step, everyone knows he can't play like he played when we picked him up, and everyone knows he dropped a ton of passes, and had to cheat to get open. The fact that we kept him on is a rampant display of a lack of accountibility. Now, if the players come to the GM and say "MAN, THIS IS BS, TITUS GOT HANDED THE #2," the GM simply has to tell them, I'm dealing with the situation in an appropriate way, keep your head up, keep doing the right thing, I see everything, and it will be handled. Then in the offseason you go about handling it in the right way, but getting this damn cancer off of the team AND getting something for him. Then you go back to said player, say Broyles, and give him a wink and say "Told you I'd take care of it..."

But the bottom line is Mayhew himself isn't that rational. He too is an emotional fool that allows himself to be controlled (allegedly Scwartz made the Titus pick and the Javid Best pick). Those two are a pack of clowns, and if you can't see it you've got blue blinders on.


you dont waste a season trying to salvage value on one player. they were trying to win games but didnt. its easy to look back at it in retrospect and say they didnt win anyway so they should ve just done x, y, and z for titus young. the staff hasnt been perfect this season yet in this instance they made the right move, going forward with 53 guys on the active roster - none of them being named titus young


December 20th, 2012, 12:16 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
The Legend wrote:
you dont waste a season trying to salvage value on one player. they were trying to win games but didnt. its easy to look back at it in retrospect and say they didnt win anyway so they should ve just done x, y, and z for titus young. the staff hasnt been perfect this season yet in this instance they made the right move, going forward with 53 guys on the active roster - none of them being named titus young


Legend, my point is, it would have benefited the TEAM THIS YEAR to do so as well. Meaning, we would have had a BETTER season with Titus as the #2, we could have stroked his ego, puffed up his stats, and canned him. The offense worked BETTER with Titus as a #2, Titus is more of a #2, and he deserved it over Nate, ASIDE from punching a teammate, problems with a ref, etc... I wouldn't say hold the team back to puff up one player to be able to dump him, that's silly, but if we had the Titus that we had in the Seattle game all season, we would be much, much better.

That's why I think we should have placated to him for a year. We needed to get rid of him, we knew we needed him gone, but he was still a cheap #2, he has a load of talent, it would have benefited the team to have him out there, and we could have completely resolved the issue entirely in the off-season. Now we've kicked the can down the road (which Mayhew seems famous for doing), and the whole issue is in limbo.

Do we give him another chance next season, do we think he's learned his lesson, do we take pittance for someone with his talent level?

You can't tell me he was handled properly.


December 20th, 2012, 4:52 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
If you say CJ dogs it, TY is 100x worse. The guy barely moves on a run. There's a reason his snaps were limited to what they were, he obviously just didn't give a damn. He didn't earn the #2. That would have been more detrimental to the team than him playing after his "I'm a complete assface" display against GB.

Hell, maybe he kisses rectum and the staff lets him come back (showing jimmy has lost all control, but its most likely they just can him).

However, you can argue that they would have been better with broyles at #2 and Nate in the slot...Titus had a hell f a time getting open, for being so fast...how could he not get open on an olb is beyond me...

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December 20th, 2012, 4:58 pm
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Post Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Lions vs. Cardinals
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The Legend wrote:
you dont waste a season trying to salvage value on one player. they were trying to win games but didnt. its easy to look back at it in retrospect and say they didnt win anyway so they should ve just done x, y, and z for titus young. the staff hasnt been perfect this season yet in this instance they made the right move, going forward with 53 guys on the active roster - none of them being named titus young


Legend, my point is, it would have benefited the TEAM THIS YEAR to do so as well. Meaning, we would have had a BETTER season with Titus as the #2, we could have stroked his ego, puffed up his stats, and canned him. The offense worked BETTER with Titus as a #2, Titus is more of a #2, and he deserved it over Nate, ASIDE from punching a teammate, problems with a ref, etc... I wouldn't say hold the team back to puff up one player to be able to dump him, that's silly, but if we had the Titus that we had in the Seattle game all season, we would be much, much better.

That's why I think we should have placated to him for a year. We needed to get rid of him, we knew we needed him gone, but he was still a cheap #2, he has a load of talent, it would have benefited the team to have him out there, and we could have completely resolved the issue entirely in the off-season. Now we've kicked the can down the road (which Mayhew seems famous for doing), and the whole issue is in limbo.

Do we give him another chance next season, do we think he's learned his lesson, do we take pittance for someone with his talent level?

You can't tell me he was handled properly.


he was a cancer and has now been excised. nobody wants him back, coaching, management, players, etc.

i agree he probably was not handled properly but have the opposite viewpoint as you. from what i understand he s been an A-wipe the entire time they ve had him but there discipline to him was too soft. he got away with too much nonsense as a rookie yet kept seeing the field and kept repeating his mistakes. i feel like the team actually tried the method that you are describing but young blew it up in there faces. it finally got to the point where they had to cut their losses.


December 20th, 2012, 5:46 pm
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